Would we have been better off if we just sacked managers at the right time?

[Skills]

I honestly, believe the biggest reason we're in this mess is we refuse to put the fire out while it's relatively small. We're repeatedly in the same position because of our stubbornness, and then rather than needing to refurbish it you're rebuilding it brick by brick.

If Ole left in Summer 2021, I think someone else could've picked up and done a job from there without us sinking to our current lows. The morale for one would never have sank to the level it has since.

If we sacked Mourinho in summer 2018, it would've left a better platform for the next to work from. We also wouldn't have gone crazy 8n the summer window of 2019.

The fact that we left things get so bad means we're constantly having to press the factory reset button, rather than just realising it's time for a refresh now.

 

[Someone]

With Ole yes. The whole experiment was a mistake and set us back big time. With Mourinho I think patience was justified as he was a proven manager and pulling the trigger won't always work.

I still think the biggest problem is what Ralf highlighted last season, we need as a club to figure out how we want to play, and then hire managers and players accordingly to guarantee continuity. This has been our biggest failure, and if in a year or two we end up sacking ETH just to hire a completely different manager we'll end up in the same position again.

 

[Big Andy]

I honestly, believe the biggest reason we're in this mess is we refuse to put the fire out while it's relatively small. We're repeatedly in the same position because of our stubbornness, and then rather than needing to refurbish it you're rebuilding it brick by brick.

If Ole left in Summer 2021, I think someone else could've picked up and done a job from there without us sinking to our current lows. The morale for one would never have sank to the level it has since.

If we sacked Mourinho in summer 2018, it would've left a better platform for the next to work from. We also wouldn't have gone crazy 8n the summer window of 2019.

The fact that we left things get so bad means we're constantly having to press the factory reset button, rather than just realising it's time for a refresh now.

LEts be honest, nobody wanted Ole sacked last summer. We'd finished 2nd, we'd been narrowly beaten in the Europa League, and we'd signed Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho.

Things were looking bright at the time.

We started the season well, and it was only later in the season that we struggled, and I still think a lot of that was playing for Ronaldo to score goals instead of playing as a team.

 

[PoTMS]

LEts be honest, nobody wanted Ole sacked last summer. We'd finished 2nd, we'd been narrowly beaten in the Europa League, and we'd signed Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho.

Things were looking bright at the time.

We started the season well, and it was only later in the season that we struggled, and I still think a lot of that was playing for Ronaldo to score goals instead of playing as a team.

No, actually there were a significant number of people who had their eyes open and could see he was a Norwegian Southgate who was a disaster waiting to happen. They got labelled among other things Ole Outers.

 

[Blood Mage]

A club with ambition would have sacked Ole after the EL final loss and to can't tell me otherwise.

 

[Apokalips]

No, actually there were a significant number of people who had their eyes open and could see he was a Norwegian Southgate who was a disaster waiting to happen. They got labelled among lots of other things Ole Outers.

Yes, exactly. Myself and quite a few of my friends wanted Ole sacked despite the 2nd place. Same thing with Mourinho after his 2nd place season and you could see the wheels coming off in the summer.

 

[Massive Spanner]

LEts be honest, nobody wanted Ole sacked last summer. We'd finished 2nd, we'd been narrowly beaten in the Europa League, and we'd signed Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho.

Things were looking bright at the time.

We started the season well, and it was only later in the season that we struggled, and I still think a lot of that was playing for Ronaldo to score goals instead of playing as a team.

Uh, a lot of people wanted Ole gone after the Europa final when it was abundantly clear he was taking us nowhere.

 

[Jezpeza]

LEts be honest, nobody wanted Ole sacked last summer. We'd finished 2nd, we'd been narrowly beaten in the Europa League, and we'd signed Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho.

Things were looking bright at the time.

We started the season well, and it was only later in the season that we struggled, and I still think a lot of that was playing for Ronaldo to score goals instead of playing as a team.

Thats statistically backed up. When Ronaldo went to Juventus they scored less goals as a team but he scored lots. Same happened to us when he joined.

No one wanted Ole sacked but his strength was not in coaching posession football. And tbh, RR and ETH have proved a lot of the players we have arent able to do it anyway. The arguments about ‘patterns of play’ and all that guff look pretty stupid now that 2 managers who are meant to be masters of that are floundering with this group of players

 

[Oranges038]

Moyes was a shit show.
LVG was doing something, but got sacked because his paint by numbers football was putting people into a coma.
Mourinho should never have been considered, never mind hired.
Ole brought a feel good factor, but looking back he made way too many poor decisions and signings. I defended him a lot but looking back he should never have gone beyond the interim role.

Anyway, the problem wasn't not sacking them. It was not having a proper plan in place and hiring the right people in the first place as managers and above to make sure the right players and staff were being brought in.

 

[Real Name]

I honestly, believe the biggest reason we're in this mess is we refuse to put the fire out while it's relatively small. We're repeatedly in the same position because of our stubbornness, and then rather than needing to refurbish it you're rebuilding it brick by brick.

If Ole left in Summer 2021, I think someone else could've picked up and done a job from there without us sinking to our current lows. The morale for one would never have sank to the level it has since.

If we sacked Mourinho in summer 2018, it would've left a better platform for the next to work from. We also wouldn't have gone crazy 8n the summer window of 2019.

The fact that we left things get so bad means we're constantly having to press the factory reset button, rather than just realising it's time for a refresh now.

With Ole I agree, after the EL final he should have gone.
Mourinho, we couldnt have sacked him after finishing 2nd although the writing was already at the wall when we were poor in the transfer market.

 

[Fahad Jawaid]

I honestly, believe the biggest reason we're in this mess is we refuse to put the fire out while it's relatively small. We're repeatedly in the same position because of our stubbornness, and then rather than needing to refurbish it you're rebuilding it brick by brick.

If Ole left in Summer 2021, I think someone else could've picked up and done a job from there without us sinking to our current lows. The morale for one would never have sank to the level it has since.

If we sacked Mourinho in summer 2018, it would've left a better platform for the next to work from. We also wouldn't have gone crazy 8n the summer window of 2019.

The fact that we left things get so bad means we're constantly having to press the factory reset button, rather than just realising it's time for a refresh now.

100% true, in fact, I would go further back and say this crap started with David Moyes and his master class against Fulham with 80 crosses or every other team breaking their records against us, his moment vs City, where he wanted us to aspire to be like them (ironically we won the league the season before) and making it difficult to Newcastle or the humiliation against City & Liverpool. We should have sacked him on multiple occasions.

Similarly with LVG, there was this October/November period where we failed to score for 6 matches and we had one shot on target at most in those matches, even OT was booing the team.

Everybody and their dog knew, they would not survive and clubs like Madrid, Bayern, Chelsea & Barca would have sacked them miles ago. Chelsea sacked Lampard (their club legend) when it became apparent he would not guide them to CPL football, similarly Barca with Koeman or Bayern with Kovac was it?

Our stupid decision of always backing managers and this bullshit of only sacking managers when top 4 becomes mathematically possible is the worst thought process ever. Consequently it costed us Champions league and resultantly makes it difficult to attract players.

 

[pacifictheme]

If we had sacked David moyes the day before he started then yes.

 

[R'hllor]

In all those stories, most funny parts are those "his job just got saved by X player or result" moments, when i reality it just delayed and wasted time. Personally i dont think it would make much difference because we are fecked either way. None of early trigger pulling would save our season in my eyes, at least i dont count from being 6th-7th to getting 4th as a season saved, its just floating in top 4 mud thats about it.

 

[Fr. Todd Unctious]

Still think Mourinho would have suited better taking over from SAF. His usuual 2/3 year stint would have been the perfect transitional choice

 

[#07]

The real problem is that there's no underlying vision about what type of team we want to be.

For example, the players we signed in Van Gaal's first summer were simply not aligned to the coach we appointed. We had a dribbler, like Di Maria, with a coach who hates dribblers. A ratter, like Ander Herrera, with a coach who was stubbornly fixated on positional play and didn't want Ander moving about.

The problems we have are often reflective of the fact that we don't know how we want to play. Often we've had the right players for the wrong manager or, like now, the right manager for the wrong set of players.

If we could get to a point where we have a coach and a set of players that really suit each other we won't have these boom and bust cycles quite so much anymore.

 

[hobbers]

No, the problems were hiring the managers in the first place.

Moyes should never have been considered. And if there was literally no other option left then he should have been forced to keep all the staff around for the first 2 years. He was at least sacked promptly.

LVG should never have been considered given he planned to retire in 3 years, with those 3 years just being on the job training for Giggs who had no qualifications and no experience.

Mourinho should never have been considered given the meltdown he had at Chelsea and how obvious it was that he and his philosophy had peaked years ago.

Ole should never have been given a permanent contract and the decision should have been made at the end of his interim stint, after the wheels had already come off and it was obvious he wasn't up to it.


Woodward should have been sacked from the football side after the LVG fiasco. After he had proven beyond all doubt he wasn't fit to make these decisions.

 

[shamans]

LEts be honest, nobody wanted Ole sacked last summer. We'd finished 2nd, we'd been narrowly beaten in the Europa League, and we'd signed Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho.

Things were looking bright at the time.

We started the season well, and it was only later in the season that we struggled, and I still think a lot of that was playing for Ronaldo to score goals instead of playing as a team.

A lot of us wanted him sacked. Plenty of times.

One of the reasons we are in this mess is due to Ole. We spent way too much time on Ole and LVG especially Ole

 

[villain]

This place loves a hypothetical scenario

 

[Newtonius]

A lot of us wanted him sacked. Plenty of times.

One of the reasons we are in this mess is due to Ole. We spent way too much time on Ole and LVG especially Ole

Yup it was late 2019 for me and my friends, even though it was his first full season if he wasn't who he was it still would have happened without question.

He had moved from a successful attacking 4-3-3 during his caretaker days to a counter attacking 4-2-3-1 which was not the "progress" we wanted to see, it not only shifted Pogba back to a midfield but also pushed Lingard and Pereira as the main man of the team. The subsequent performances and the results week to week were no different than they are now even, ended up reaching the bottom half of the table before Bruno came in in the January and rescued the shit out of his job.

 

[shamans]

Yup it was late 2019 for me and my friends, even though it was his first full season if he wasn't who he was it still would have happened without question.

What i really disliked was that he had moved from a successful attacking 4-3-3 during his caretaker days to a counter attacking 4-2-3-1 which was not the "progress" we wanted to see, it not only shifted Pogba back to a midfield but also pushed Lingard and Pereira as the main man of the team. The subsequent performances and the results week to week were no different than they are now even, ended up reaching the bottom half of the table before Bruno came in in the January and rescued the shit out of his job.

Problem is some people get sucked into results and think things are fine.

In context, Ole was dreadful. We had a squad that had peaked with a happy Pogba and happy forwards. He just wrecked it all.

 

[Karlos PFC]

No, the problem as @hobbers said was the wrong hirings we've got all those years and all those different style managers.

Moyes should never even considered as a Man United manager. Fulham 88 crosses, oh my God like we had prime Beckham in the squad.

Van Gaal was somewhat promising given the excellent world cup run he had with a very limited Netherlands squad. Even though I was full the in camp his football against smaller sides was a bore fest.

Mourinho is Mourinho you know what you get from day one.

Ole should never in a thousand years be considered for the job, and his stint is one of the factors for where we are today. The signs were there from his interim spell and even after his first transfer window with Maguire, WB and James

 

[Ekeke]

I honestly, believe the biggest reason we're in this mess is we refuse to put the fire out while it's relatively small. We're repeatedly in the same position because of our stubbornness, and then rather than needing to refurbish it you're rebuilding it brick by brick.

If Ole left in Summer 2021, I think someone else could've picked up and done a job from there without us sinking to our current lows. The morale for one would never have sank to the level it has since.

If we sacked Mourinho in summer 2018, it would've left a better platform for the next to work from. We also wouldn't have gone crazy 8n the summer window of 2019.

The fact that we left things get so bad means we're constantly having to press the factory reset button, rather than just realising it's time for a refresh now.

LVG was super slow to go as well. Yes one of the biggest problems

And one of the reasons why is that we get the same each time a new manager comes in. "Clean slate", tries the same players the previous used and failed with, we cant sign players for our problem positions until we have the new manager in! etc.

So if we get the new manager in months before, all that is sorted out quicker and therefore so can the changes the coach wants

 

[Levi1]

Exactly right. I was so disappointed in him personally by the Europe League final, but I still wanted to give him time. But I remember many others who didn't.

No, actually there were a significant number of people who had their eyes open and could see he was a Norwegian Southgate who was a disaster waiting to happen. They got labelled among other things Ole Outers.

 

[Galactic]

With hindsight as our superpower, sure!

 

[DannyCAFC]

So United consistently struggled for a number of seasons to finish in CL places in the years immediately post Fergie, but you wanted to sack Ole and Mourinho after they both finished 2nd?

Okay lad...

 

[Sushi Kagawa]

To be honest we messed up when we gave Ole the job on a permanent basis.

He then proceeded to sign Maguire and AWB for 130 Million and we are still stuck with them!

 

[BigRon1985]

If we had sacked David moyes the day before he started then yes.

I still shudder recalling watching his first press conference - you just knew it would end in disaster........the guy looked completely terrified!

 

[Robbie Boy]

I wish we had gone a totally different direction and not appointed Ole on a full term basis. I honestly believe we would be in a much better position today.

 

[adexkola]

@Skills can a dysfunctional organization fire and hire their way to success?

 

[Tigersam]

A club with ambition would have sacked Ole after the EL final loss and you can't tell me otherwise.

That would absolutely not have happened. His pay-off would have been massive - when Van Gaal was sacked fifteen minutes after the FA Cup (and that had been won!) it was because Manchester United had not qualified for the CL. Ole coming second - that did not apply - plus a penalty shoot-out is always a lottery. Decisions about Managers and when they should go vs when they do go is driven by the accountants more so than at any other club and that possibly shows some underlying financial constraints people don't always know about.

Its funny how hardly any money had been spent these last three months, but then this week when Daniel Radcliffe says he wants a stake in the club so he can work his magic, well the Glazers turn the taps on and the Casemiro deal is done in like three days with others in the pipeline. I fear that it shows the American owners do not want to walk-away from Old Trafford without a fight, they never should have been permitted to buy MUFC in the first place.

 

[Sweet Square]

Very normal thread.

 

[r1z3mu]

Ole yes. He's done so much damage by wasting almost 0.5 billion that it will take another 5 years to clean his mess.
Mourinho yes. When Jose implodes you could see signs. Unfortunately Ed saw it as a sign to give him new contract (same with Ole above).


*But biggest and not related to OP is the fact that we kept Ed for so long. Damage he is done to our club is almost criminal (with Glazers).

 

[Skills]

@Skills can a dysfunctional organization fire and hire their way to success?

In football, absolutely. Time scales are relatively small in football compared to other organisations.

You can plan for next season, and at a stretch the season after that. But beyond that, you have no hope of knowing what will happen. You might place some clever bets for a bit longer but you can't be dedicated to a 5 year plan or some bullshit.

So you're asking me, whether a football club can improve its immediate prospects but hiring and firing and my answer is yes.

 

[Amadaeus]

True, we are the exception when it comes to big club. We give managers more than enough time to turn things around, which is good for managers who come here at United and need time. However, I think also because we never been in a position that warrant an immediate sack because our standards are so low. We have to be consistently shite before our managers get the booth. As a manager, I actually love that approach, but if we are trying to get to higher level, we may have to be a little bit more ruthless

 

[Scriblerus]

Following what many people are suggesting here would have seen Sir Alex Ferguson out of the door without a pot on the shelves. Hindsight is a wonderful thing - the problem was more to do with appointing the wrong managers (4 of them, from Moyes to Ole) in the first place.

 

[Zed 101]

I honestly, believe the biggest reason we're in this mess is we refuse to put the fire out while it's relatively small. We're repeatedly in the same position because of our stubbornness, and then rather than needing to refurbish it you're rebuilding it brick by brick.

If Ole left in Summer 2021, I think someone else could've picked up and done a job from there without us sinking to our current lows. The morale for one would never have sank to the level it has since.

If we sacked Mourinho in summer 2018, it would've left a better platform for the next to work from. We also wouldn't have gone crazy 8n the summer window of 2019.

The fact that we left things get so bad means we're constantly having to press the factory reset button, rather than just realising it's time for a refresh now.

I think the issue is less about sacking managers or persisting with them and rather about missing out on better managers when they were available, if you believe what you read we could have got Klopp, Guardiola, Touchel, Poch and more.... had we been more proactive,

I love Ole and think he deserves some credit, rather than the complete bashing he gets, I watch football to enjoy it, for the most part of Ole's tenure I enjoyed watching our football more than at anytime since the SAF golden days, not saying he was without faults, of course and ultimately the job was too big for him, but I think he was better than many are willing to give him credit.

Now we have ETH but we are at our lowest ebb following 6 months of no direction and no morale, if we feck up with ETH where do we go? we are going down the route that Chelsea went down a few years ago of literally running out of prospective managers to hire

 

[Jippy]

Would we have been better off if we'd run the club more adroitly in hindsight? Er...

 

[Glazers Out!]

Probably hung on to Ole, hoping that there would be a chance to get Haaland.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

We would have been better off if we chose the right managers in the first place and had succession planning.

The biggest issue is a continuation of managers along completely different ethics:

Moyes - defensive-focused, hard graft football, not particularly possession based to...
Van Gaal - ultra possession based football, requiring a different kind of player to...
Mourinho - the ball is your enemy, defensive focused football, toxic, demanding management to...
Solskjaer - fast-paced football, happy, smiles, laidback management.

Mourinho as manager might have made sense after Moyes, with the players from Fergie's era (although he'd already taken the Chelsea job by that point). At least you're moving in continuity of very rough managerial styles. Conte or Simeone would have been along a similar vein.

If you get Van Gaal, then afterwards you need to get a Guardiola or equivalent manager. Not the anti-Guardiola/Van Gaal manager in Mourinho.

Any team going from Van Gaal to Mourinho as manager has no fecking idea what their long-term plan is.

 

[stefan92]

I honestly, believe the biggest reason we're in this mess is we refuse to put the fire out while it's relatively small. We're repeatedly in the same position because of our stubbornness, and then rather than needing to refurbish it you're rebuilding it brick by brick.

If Ole left in Summer 2021, I think someone else could've picked up and done a job from there without us sinking to our current lows. The morale for one would never have sank to the level it has since.

If we sacked Mourinho in summer 2018, it would've left a better platform for the next to work from. We also wouldn't have gone crazy 8n the summer window of 2019.

The fact that we left things get so bad means we're constantly having to press the factory reset button, rather than just realising it's time for a refresh now.

It's not the timing of the sacking that's the problem, but the lack of a problem for what happens next. In theory you are right, sacking early enough before a complete downward spiral happens makes sense and can be useful. But the problem is the "full reset" United every time did. Each new manager was a completely different type who wanted a much different style of play and so there was rebuild after rebuild.

Clubs that have a better structure and vision adjust their course slightly to improve and then everythings fine, but United has been bouncing all over the place. Under these circumstances sacking managers quicker would probably just have resulted in the list of failed managers being one or two names longer by now.