Deserved…the worst manager I’ve seen at united. Gave up after 45 mins. Absolutely disgraceful
Ralf Rangnick's consultancy role has been scrapped
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What the feck are you talking about? How is he any worse than Moyes was? He got no pre-season, he got a squad full of prima donnas that were coddled under Ole and didn't want to take any shit, he didn't get a winter transfer budget and he was tasked in saving a season that was going very badly for us. He's not the greatest manager, but he was set up to fail.
I've very little sympathy for Rangnick.
He was dealt a bad hand yes but his coaching was poor to put it kindly.
He was dealt a bad hand yes but his coaching was poor to put it kindly.
If you say so mate, obviously you'd know the thinking behind my posts better than me.
I said my goal in this thread is rarely to paint Ole or anyone in a better light, that's a fact mate. What or how much I've posted in other threads in the past is irrelevant to that.
And I'm more negative about Ralf's time as United manager as opposed to Ralf himself. Was there anything to be positive about Ralf's time here? Am I not allowed to be negative towards the tenures of former managers or just Rangnick's tenure?
Also you went round a load of the old Ole and Ralf threads to see how many posts I had? Brilliant.
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I’d like to answer your interesting takes about Solskjær as manager, and it really should be edited over into a Solskjær thread, if not for the fact it would quickly decay into polarized pulp. But the time is coming for a more level headed discussion about Solskjær’s stint. For me, anyway, it’s made easier by the distance in time, and the fact that I am really excited about Ten Hag and we are in a less apocalyptic scenario now.
I think certainly there is merit to your points about Solskjær having limitations in the way of coaching aggressive/high line collective pressing. I also agree Wan Bissaka and Maguire have been shown to have limitations in different ways, and that our recruitment haven’t suited our managers ambitions (for quite a while, really).
Regarding Solskjær, I’m not sure about you referencing him as saying he wasn’t a coach, I’d like to see the context of that. Even if he saw himself more in a Fergusonoid manager role than say a Spanish type head coach role, he is the one Fergie disciple who took tactics and coaching really seriously all the way. He had theoretically and practically incredibly sound coaches himself, and was always an ardent student.
When it came to recruitment, I’m unsure about the whole process. It was a train wreck vor Van Gaal, for Mourinho and for Solskjær, but less so for Solskjær. For Maguire and Wan Bissaka’s weaknesses, they actually adressed problems in the squad left by Mourinho/Woodward. Maguire/Lindelöf was a much better pairing than any of the ones already at the club - even for a high line, and certainly for possession football. Varane’s identification was also a further step in the right direction. Wan Bissaka shored up a leaky left side, and tbh looked like our beat right backforr quite a while. Him being that young, able to dribble and a former winger by CV, possibly made it plausible to someone that he would be able to learn the attacking part better. I worry about how well he was scouted, which is not the manager’s job. In the end, I suspect the whole CEO/manager/recruitment set up was flawed, even until Ten Hag came in (it certainly didn’t appear like someone had been working on player options while working on manager options), and most of the fault in our recruitment lies there. Hopefully this is changing with the new set up.
What Solskjær did do, was improve the basic tactics and flexibility of the team from what we saw under Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho. The play and results under Solskjær’s best period, was the best we had seen since Ferguson. I’m not sure he would have been able to progress it further than that, but with Bruno, Martial and Rashford injury free and in form, United was one of the best teams in Europe for a while there. It’s difficult to emphasize enough how impactful it would have been that Solskjær identified early that this team needed more than one preseason worth of training to be physically ready, yet he only had one real preseason in his time here, and that was before the best period of his team.
Then again, I also believe Solskjær made mistakes, concerning the use of Rashford and Martial, who both first improved, but then where impaired by injuries and confidence issues following. I suspect Solskjær of being to little perfectionist with the set up of staff and cooperation, although that worked wonders for a while because Mourinho and Van Gaal both had the opposite fault, so most of the staff and players seemed to relish working for Solskjær. This big initial pro might have turned into a con.
The questions over ‘promises, beterayals etc’ from players seemed only to become an issue towards the end of his stint. Why? Did it coincide with the decrease in new players in and increase in prolonged player contracts? I think there is a concistency in that Solskjær’s main choices are more or leas the same favored by Rangnik and later Ten Hag. None of them saw lots of ’hidden jewels on Solskjær’s bench. Dalot is the exception, not the rule. Was it Solskjær’s choice to cling onto players he wouldn’t use, instead of getting them out and at least a few better suited players in? Implausible.
I think anyone claiming that Van Gaal, Mourinho or Rangnik are inept coaches/managers are exaggerating wildly. None of them were at their peak coming to United, but their work with AZ/Netherlands, Chelsea and Leipzig fairly shortly before United, and with Netherlands, Spurs/Roma and Austria afterwards, shows that while they are behind the very small elite, they are competent enough. Solskjær in my eyes did the best job of these in terms of results, in game tactics, entertainment, general enjoyment about the club, and player development, under the circumstances. His bestsuit was and is low block defending and direct counter attacks, which may not be trendy but is still effective, and he was more versatile tactically than the others. I think he was much less of a hard man perfectionist towards the club administration than the other three, which has upsides and downsides, but I think it fecked him in the end, because he already proved he was capable of incremental improvements and too 2/3/4 finishes and winning European games at high levels.
I think/hope Ten Hag is a much better coach and a more hard headed winner, and I hope the club administration is improving now, so I think we have a better chance than in ten years of closing the gap.
i hope he can escape the polarizing debates that needs managers and players to either be GOATs or incompetents, as I’m not sure he’ll last longer than Solskjær if he doesn’t. But it’s looking promising.
Rangnick was right in his assessments and comments about a lot of things to do with the club... but he was a terrible fit for an interim manager. You don't want your interim manager draining all the life out of the club with his negativity. You want the interim to rally the troops to plaster over the end of the season. It was a terrible appointment because they didn't give him the consultancy role. None of it made any sense at all. If he'd kept the consultancy role then at least his squad assessments would have made it somewhat worthwhile.
Moyes didn’t give up on the job.
I mean, he didn’t ”give up”, he & the squad found out his replacement in mid-April. Up until then he’d lost 4 games in 22, with of those vs City & Atletico.
We then lost 4 in the last 6. Anyone who watched surely realised our spineless players were the ones who gave up once the CL was gone and they realised they’d be getting a new gaffer soon so didn’t need to listen to this ”nobody”.
He was absolutely shite, but had some mitigating circumstances and a team of players that even started under Ten Hag with two loses including an absolute spanking from Brentford. Moyes was just laughably shit.
Although, I guess arguing the shitness of Moyes, Ole & Ragnick is a bit daft, all three were in over their heads.
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Those two threads are a fecking hilarious read. Some of the mental gymnastics to paint Ole's tenure in a positive light are absolutely amazing.
Weird.
As I say, arguing about Moyes, Ole & Ragnick is like arguing which shit sandwich tastes the best.
Exactly.
As shit as they both were; at least Jose and LvG actually delivered some success that can be measured by trophies, and not by people screaming 2nd and 3rd place very, very loudly.
I also find it interesting that ETH stressed after our win against Fulham that the culture is changing at the club etc. I thought most of the praise for Ole was for the awesome "cultural reset" that he performed.
It just shows that far too many were duped by Ole, and the culture was one of toxic, molly coddled prima donnas, who had zero work ethic or accountability. It also shows that Ralf - or whoever would have come in - wasn't going to be able to do anything with that squad in 6-months. Ralf then exasperated the toxicity with some of his later interviews. The club absolutely wasted 3.5 years, and ETH has a massive job on his hands.
It just shows that far too many were duped by Ole, and the culture was one of toxic, molly coddled prima donnas, who had zero work ethic or accountability. It also shows that Ralf - or whoever would have come in - wasn't going to be able to do anything with that squad in 6-months. Ralf then exasperated the toxicity with some of his later interviews. The club absolutely wasted 3.5 years, and ETH has a massive job on his hands.
Rangnick should be dressed in expensive silk at the clubs expense for exposing the turd flowing through the club.
Honest man hard done by pampered feckers with pr and connections to the media.
Honest man hard done by pampered feckers with pr and connections to the media.
I understand why people tend to reflect on the past when there were good times and joy and nice memories to smile about.
I can't understand for the life of me why people are reflecting on Ole's and Ralf's times here which were probably the most disheartening and soul destroying years as a Utd support of recent times.
We have a much better coach now, let's all move on and be happy.
I can't understand for the life of me why people are reflecting on Ole's and Ralf's times here which were probably the most disheartening and soul destroying years as a Utd support of recent times.
We have a much better coach now, let's all move on and be happy.
Personally I think Ralf and at least half the squad (most likely more) checked out before then around February/March. After that win against West Ham when Rashford scored in January we only won 5 of the last 19 matches. It was an atrocious run of form not just result wise but the performances as well. Arguably the worst run of form I've seen in 30+ years of supporting United.
I think when Ralf initially joined he had been hoping he would end up in an important role at United (maybe United were at fault here). At first he suggested he might recommend himself as the permanent manager, that ship sailed quickly when we were in negotiations with Ten Hag at the start of the year. Then he seemed to be publicly auditioning for a DOF style role, which lead to the rumours that the board/staff had to tell him several times to concentrate on his job as first team manager. At some point he obviously realized he wouldn't be getting any sort of meaningful role at United so just went through the motions for the last few months it seems. And you couldn't really blame him as who knows what the club actually told him to get him to leave his job in Russia and join United in the first place.
What an absolutely deluded opinion. Not even worth debating.
Aye, wouldn’t surprise me if this was the case.
Amen, brother. It's just slow football days.
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It was all very fecking weird how it played out, anyway.
I reckon he just took over a complete mess and then was met with managing people like Ronaldo who decided to completely ignore him because they'd "never heard of him"
He had no power or authority to change anything since everyone knew he wasn't there full time anyway, so probably did give up at some point.
As far as coaching goes, Solskjaer has mentioned that he's never been a training ground coach and delegates duties to other coaches who are better than him at coaching drills on the training ground, whilst himself and Phelan observe from the sidelines. So for me, I think Kieran McKenna deserves alot of credit, especially if we take into consideration that the recruitment was poor which made it difficult to successfully coach a more proactive game style considering McKenna was also inexperienced at first team level and was brought to the club by John Murtough to lead the u18s at youth level, years earlier. Fergie also delegated, but that was after he'd been a training ground coach for many years.
I think what I want to focus on, is the recruitment under Solskjaer and his role in the recruitment process which has been reported on. And he was also afforded the luxury of having his own personal scout to go along with Mike Phelan. And Solskjaer's role at the club was as the manager and not the head coach, and there's a difference between those roles because Solskjaer had taken up the role as the general manager/Sporting director, whilst Kieran Mckenna was the head coach. Laurie Whitwell in The Athletic piece below, compared Solskjaer's role at the club as one being similar to what is seen in American sports as the General Manager.
And we can agree to disagree regarding who signed Ronaldo. But for me I actually do believe what Whitwell and Crafton reported regarding Solskjaer contacting Woodward on the phone and wanting to know if it was possible to sign Ronaldo instead of Man City. But the problem that created, was that Murtough and ten Hag didn't want him and Ronaldo is now saying that he knows that there was 2 or 3 guys (at executive level) who didn't want him even last year. And one of those people has to be Murtough and he's backing the guy he appointed as Head coach (ten Hag) all the way.
Solskjaer was in-charge of recruitment at first team level until he left the club, and he was reporting directly to Ed Woodward according to the reputable journos. John Murtough was in-charge of the recruitment and development of the teams at youth level. And we know Murtough put in place the scouts who identified the likes of Kobbie Mainoo, Hannibal Mejbri, Garnacho and many others at youth level. And Murtough signed those players, but only after he'd put the scouting structure in place at youth level several years earlier by poaching David Harrison and his whole team from Man City, to lead the youth scouting at the club. The reason I'm mentioning this is because I'm going to compare the different ways both the first team and youth development side was being run independently from each other.
The difference was that at the development level the key decision maker was John Murtough in a head of development capacity and not the coaches. At first team level, Mourinho and then later Solskjaer, were both either wanting total control or in Solskjaer's case, he was afforded total control as far as the recruitment decisions are concerned. And people can point to various shortcomings when it comes to Solskjaer on why he ultimately failed. But for me he failed because he failed to connect the dots when it came to the recruitment process. He relied on Mike Phelan to advise him on things like recruitment and ignored the head scouts who had warned the club against signing certain players like Harry Maguire, which was reported by Daniel Taylor in his Guardian piece a year before Solskjaer signed Maguire where he reported that the decision makers at scouting level vetoed the Maguire signing because they didn't believe he was any better than what was already at the club. You either go with the scouts or sack and replace them. Solskjaer went with Mike Phelan who was Maguire's former manager at Hull City. And the quotes below gives some insight into how recruitment was being handled at first team level under Solskjaer.
Whitwell/Crafton: "Solskjaer has often sought the views and influence of former United players when making signings."
"Before signing Bruno Fernandes in January of last year, for example, he secured a character reference from Ronaldo, a Portugal team-mate."
"Daniel James’ move from Swansea in the summer of 2019 came after Solskjaer spoke at length to the winger’s then-Wales manager Ryan Giggs, a fellow United great. Giggs also passed along positive reports from Crystal Palace’s Welsh goalkeeper Wayne Hennessey on Aaron Wan-Bissaka ahead of his transfer to Old Trafford in that same window, while Gary Neville added information gathered from Ray Lewington, the Palace assistant. Neville, a right-back like Wan-Bissaka, had worked with Lewington on the England coaching staff."
"Phelan previously coached Maguire, another summer 2019 signing, at Hull City."
https://theathletic.com/2882153/202...-manchester-united?source=user-shared-article
And just to finish off as this is the Rangnick thread. Rangnick didn't expose anything and what he said in his press conferences was already known by many. I created many posts prior to Rangnick's arrival which said the same thing and I'm sure there were others who posted similar stuff.
But what I've described above, creates a paranoia among the fan base who then seem to believe that unless we get a DoF with a magic wand, we can't evolve as a team and a football club. But in reality it's a limited understanding of football at the highest level, where people can't seem to look beyond this one guy who they think goes around signing players due to some contacts he's built up over the years. But the truth is, there's numerous examples of people we all know very little about that have created structural foundations at the biggest and most successful clubs. Michael Edwards at Liverpool was introduced to top level football by Harry Redknapp. Man City's structures were created by Brian Marwood with little to no experience working as a DoF. The role of the DoF is a very simple role and we've seen the most well known DoFs fail and relatively unknown DoFs prosper. There's world class players and coaches but there isn't a world class DoF imo.
What John Murtough ends up accomplishing only time will tell. But he's already made his mark in some ways by appointing a potentially world class head coach, removing/replacing the head scouts and signing players like Mainoo, Garnacho, Hannibal etc who will at the very least bring in alot of money via sales or they'll save us alot of money by becoming first team players.
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I loved every moment of Ronaldo shitting on Ralf. As distasteful as his comments were about EtH he never once gave the impression that ten Hag wasn't a really good coach or didn't know what he was doing. In the case of Ralf, Ronaldo basically confirms that it was indeed a shitshow under him and repeatedly said he wasn't a football manager.
Ralf's army that lapped up his self serving quotes in the media constantly ignored any work done on the pitch or man management.
I wasn't a fan of Ronaldo's interview but there was no doubt that Ralf was putting things in the media that were basically against the Ronaldo signing and discussing his limitations in his intended style of play. He's the one that showed the most lack of respect for Cristiano especially as this was last season when he was our best player.
I said it repeatedly when he was here that he cones off as a very unlikeable person and the sooner we erase him from the history of the club the better. Utter trash as a human and a coach.
Ralf's army that lapped up his self serving quotes in the media constantly ignored any work done on the pitch or man management.
I wasn't a fan of Ronaldo's interview but there was no doubt that Ralf was putting things in the media that were basically against the Ronaldo signing and discussing his limitations in his intended style of play. He's the one that showed the most lack of respect for Cristiano especially as this was last season when he was our best player.
I said it repeatedly when he was here that he cones off as a very unlikeable person and the sooner we erase him from the history of the club the better. Utter trash as a human and a coach.
Jesus Christ. Feels really daft to make everything so binary.
Ole was a necessary salve, post Mourinho. He did so much right, nearly won a trophy, but was never the fella to take us further. He stayed too long.
Ragnick did a lot of things right, laid all of our shit bare and that alone was valuable. I think the club fcuked up the messaging, and clearly didn’t have a proper evolutionary plan.
Ronaldo… is a toxic self serving narcissist that hangs out with Piers Morgan and Jordan Peterson. Ragnick did more positive things for the club in his tenure than Ronaldo did in the same period. He had a good to great start but is now damaging the club far more than RR or Ole.
There’s nuance in all of this. Making it good or bad is really reductive.
Having said that… the idea that Ragnick could be described as human trash is really not cool. He’s quite clearly a well respected football guy.
Indeed but most Interim managers do to be fair. I have no doubt Ronaldo was a problem for Ralf, Ole and now Erik. Ralf probably didn't help himself either though, I think he made some mistakes in trying to change too much too soon in terms of formation, style and positions. And while he's a vastly experienced and respected coach he's probably never had to deal with the level of talent, egos and bad attitudes that were present in the United squad. He didn't have their respect and obviously didn't manage to get it either.
But more than anything Ralf did in hindsight he was a terrible appointment by the club for the situation we were in, the clusterfeck that was last season is also largely on the board for hiring him. The whole episode turned into an ill thought out farce by the end with him getting sacked from the advisory role before he even started it. I know people joke but we probably would have been better off hiring the likes of Big Sam for 6 months.
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Yes there is nuance in it all and it’s probably right that “good” and “bad” are not very meaningful descriptors.
With hindsight (and with the benefit of information that comes out later) we can see practices / behaviours and decisions that many of us will now regard as mistakes (even if we didn’t at the time). The bigger and more frequent the mistakes, the more likely a coach will be viewed as bad, I suppose, even if it’s lazy.
Most of us will downplay evidence that goes against our biases. I loved the good stuff about Ole and preferred to deny the negative stuff. Stuff comes out later and it puts a different complexion on it.
I’m very much for giving people a chance. Whilst I think Ralf was the wrong choice and did a “bad” job as coach, his qualities were probably invisible to me. I’ve said a few times that the consultant role was where he could offer most. Seems to me that the board hired a “good” consultant, ignored his advice and asked him to devote all his time to a very difficult coaching job that he wasn’t comfortable in. So there were a few mistakes made by all concerned.
I had time for Mourinho, Van Gaal and even Moyes. They all made mistakes. Mistakes don’t make these guys “bad” but they all made rather a lot of mistakes on our turf and to our detriment.
Excellent well thought out post mate. Very informative.
Yeah, all fair comment.
Allardyce came to mind for me as soon as we said we were going to appoint an interim coach. We could still have brought Ralf in upstairs and might have actually got some value out of him.
Yeah it would have been, Ralf's had a very respectable career as a coach but I think most people would agree he was never a top coach and he's probably past his best. So hiring him for his first coaching job outside Germany to take over a top club and a side in turmoil mid-season probably wasn't the best idea. Especially as his style of football didn't suit the squad Mourinho/Solskjaer had built.
I think people underestimate juat how much of a mess he inherited to be honest.
Most clubs who appoint interim managers don't wait until 6 months after they should have sacked the previous manager to do so, or spend 5+ years completely missmanaging the squad, running players contracts down, refusing to let other players leave and geberally creating mass disharmony, signing players they don't need and ignoring strengthening in areas where players are desperately needed.
It's all well and good and very easy to say in hindsight he'd was the wrong choice, but I honestly can't think of any single manager who could have come in during the same spell and done much to repair the damage.
This is partly why I've been very impressed with Ten Hag, but keeping in mind as well that unlike Rangnick, he hasn't had to deal with the likes of lingard and Pogba, he's been allowed to sign literally half a new team, and actually has a remit to be able to tell the likes of Ronaldo to feck off. He also got to take over between seasons when the squad could have a reset in confidence etc. Rangnick took over a squad who'd been mismanaged quite astonishingly for half a season and had their confidence and any targets, aims or motivations they might have had, completely shot to pieces.
As someone else said, Rangnick said we needed 10 new players. If you looked at what would probably be Ten Hags preferred starting 11, 6 of them are players who weren't available to Rangnick for one reason or another, and he probably still needs at least 4-5 more.
Apart from anything else it's weird to me that people look back at last season and pinpoint Rangnick as a standout in terms of bad management. You can't exactly say he done well but Ole's "management" last season was frankly staggeringly horrendous. Short of getting us relegated I'm not sure what Rangnivk could have done to top it.
I didnt laugh at him and we still need up to 10 signings to make a brilliant squad, Ralf was probably the wrong person for the dugout
I could be wrong but I really don’t think people are attacking Ralf or trying to understate the mess he inherited.
The mess was much as you describe and there’s no point in making out it could be fixed quickly. And that is exactly the reason it was strange to appoint a strategist, philosopher, administrator on a short term coaching contract when what was required was the polar opposite. A steady pragmatist with a lot of prem experience, such as Allardyce, would have been better; ideally an old boy with a clear brief and no expectation of being considered for the permanent job.
And we could still have brought Ralf in to do what he’s good at and concentrate on that upstairs.
Apart from Ronaldo, we all respect Ralf, we just gave him the wrong job.
To be fair it wasn't Rangnicks job to come in and repair any damage with long term sweeping changes like Ten Hag is currently. He wasn't at United to start or oversee a rebuild. He was there to coach the first team, steady the ship, get results/performances back on track. With the hope of finishing in the top 4. Though I don't know if Ralf realised that.
He's often misquoted on that.
Rangnick said we needed 10 players over 3-4 windows and mostly because we were losing so many out of contract players. That's hardly some crazy revelation most teams sign 3-5 players most summers. Obviously that number might be slightly higher when we've hired a manager who wants to play a completely different style of football to the one this squad had been built for. And some of the current squad need to be shifted on and replaced because they aren't compatible with that style.
No you can't but you can say he did atrociously. Pointing that out isn't pin pointing Rangnicks poor management and ignoring others. They aren't mutually exclusive.
The management from Ole last season was so bad before Rangnick came that you say he could have only did worse if he'd relegated us. Ok but by that logic then you would have thought it sould have been easy enough to improve upon that. But under Ralf we were pretty much just as bad.
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I'm not sure who you think could have come in and dragged the team to 4th place after Ole had been allowed to tank the season 7-8 times over without the club bothering to act? Name me a manager we could have realistically got at that point who could have done what you are suggesting.
Allardyce has been suggested but I find that laughable. Imagine the reaction of fans if the club appointed Allardyce, or anyone else who's speciality was to just about not get their team relegated. On what basis is that comparable to taking over a club of Uniteds size, with a squad of massive egos, half of whom don't think they should have to listen to the manager, and half of who have contract situations which mean they have no reason to give a toss whether the team finish 4th or 14th.
And what we're discovering here is another challenge Rangnick faced, which was living up to this absurd expectation that he could turn last seasons mess into a healthy top four finish, which frankly will be a huge challenge for Ten Hag this year. That was just never happening. We were getting played off the park by literally every PL team we faced right from the start of the season (well, if you ignore Leeds). We were getting hammered by the likes of Watford.
We didn't improve much under Rangnick, if at all, but I would blame that as much on the fact that we took so long to act on removing Ole that it was literally months too late by the time we did. We started putting out the fire once it had turned to smouldering ash, then wondered why it didn't magically turn back into a house. I don't even really blame Ole either tbh. He should have gone after the Europa League final...and it was actually obvious he'd have to go some months before that, but Woodward had no contingency and is frankly, an idiot.
I honestly think the club had convinced itself it would stick with Ole no matter how bad it got, and then it got SO bad that they were effectively pressured into removing him, and then had no plan at all so just had to get someone, since no half sensible manager who wanted the job full time would have been dumb enough to take over such a disaster of a season. Rangnick is just the unlucky sod who didn't have that bit of sense or more likely was lured by the consultancy offer.
You tell me mate, we were so bad pre Rangnick as you say the season was tanked 7-8 times over, it should have been easy enough to improve the fortunes and form of the team.
I imagine the club thought/hoped he would have improved the teams form and gave us a chance of finishing in the top 4 (It was hardly mission impossible, we were 3 points off 4th when he took over). Otherwise they wouldn't have hired him, they might as well have stuck with Carrick or Solskjaer until the end of the season.
Eddie Howe took over a Newcastle side bottom of the table, with only 5 points and 0 wins around the same time. They only finished 9 points behind us, so turnarounds can happen and us finishing 4th didn't require a miracle.
I do blame the club mate, maybe more than I blame Ralf's poor management. I also think the Solskjaer experiment had ran it's course after the Europa league final defeat. I was gutted we lost as I would have been delighted for him and the club to win it but thought at least the defeat might make it a bit easier for Ole to step aside and the club to move on. I got caught up in the romanticism of Ole being the manager but I only ever hoped we would be successful under him, I don't think I ever actually believed we would be. Him winning a cup and then moving on would have been perfect.
I also think the club took too long to sack Solskjaer, at the very, very, very latest he should have went during the international break after the City defeat. I also think (granted in hindsight) that hiring Ralf was a very poor choice and certainly the circumstances that surrounded his hiring with the vague consultancy role attached didn't help in my opinion. I didn't know much about him at the time and was willing to give him a chance but he was just a terrible fit for this squad on just about every level. If we couldn't get an experienced coach in with a play style to suit or at least an adaptable coach that wouldn't have wanted to try to change everything mid-season. Then the club probably should have stuck with Carrick until the end of the season.
Hiring Ralf as interim was completely pointless and he was set up to fail as everyone has pointed out. But I also don’t think he’s a very good coach. Gaffer of Austria seems about the right level for him.
If the board was waiting for Ten Haag in the summer - and giving up on the season (because Ralf Ragnick? C’mon really?) - Michael Carrick should have just been given the interim job to finish out the season - Club legend, respected by the players, beat Arsenal in as the manager and starting off well as the head man of Middlesbrough. He could have steadied the ship a lot better than Ralf and set things up better for ETH.
If the board was waiting for Ten Haag in the summer - and giving up on the season (because Ralf Ragnick? C’mon really?) - Michael Carrick should have just been given the interim job to finish out the season - Club legend, respected by the players, beat Arsenal in as the manager and starting off well as the head man of Middlesbrough. He could have steadied the ship a lot better than Ralf and set things up better for ETH.
"You tell me" isn't really an answer though is it? If you think Rangnick was "atrocious" then I'd assume you think we could have got someone better. If I could tell you who that was I wouldn't be disagreeing with you.
I think you're severely underestimating the mess he took over and exactly how poor we were. There were only a small handful of games last season where the opposition didn't completely outplay us, and actually nearly all of those were in the spell after Rangnick took over and before the players completely checked out for the season.
You can't seriously compare Eddie Howe taking over a side bottom of the league with someone taking over United mid season and being expected to propell them to some form of success. The situations aren't even comparable. How many discontented players with Ronaldo, Pogba or even Rashford or Lingard's ego were at Newcastle? How much criticism would they get for losing 5-1 to Liverpool?
I don't think Rangnick did well. At the end of the day he ended up with a team that had given up on him and themselves, which obviously isn't great, but he also walked into a fecking graveyard and was being asked to bring it back to life.
I reckon the club after finally realising Ole needed to go, actually made a sensible decision in realising they needed to be a bit more progressive and needed a coach who could implement a modern style of play and some discipline around it...but the time to do that would have been before the season, so they ended up getting Rangnick as some kind of attempt at a transitional interim, since no one who fitted that bill would be dumb enough to take it on halfway through a season with a squad full of unhappy players.
And I think Rangnick did do some good in taking the brunt of that so Ten Hag could come in both with a clean slate and a remit not to take any shite.
Some of the stuff Ten Hag has publicly had to do talks you juat how bad it was. Forcing players to get rid of their private chefs, having to punish members of the team for being late to team meetings, or fecking off before the end of games because they were bored/fed up. Having to hold a training session where the whole team went on a big long run to teach them that it's important to run during games. I mean this is a professional football club. It's actually laughable...and this is what Rangnick would have walked into, half way through a car crash season, and been asked to sort out despite having no authority to, since he wasn't even the full time manager....and not to forget that on top pf that he had idiots like Lingard and Pogba, and didn't have Casemiro, Martinez, Varane, Eriksen...who would probably all be in our top 5 players now.
I think the point about might as well have stuck with Carrick is maybe a fair one, but I don't think it would have made much difference. It could even have gone much worse...and he might have not been interested anyway. Ole simply had to go as we were literally getting hammered every single week regardless of the opponent...and it had reached the point where the scorelines weren't even hiding it anymore.
Yeah, I think Carrick probably had too much integrity to accept that, feeling he was part of the problem.
I don’t really understand why people are defending RR. So most of us agree that it was a mess he was walking into but defence of RR seems to be made up of two “arguments”.
1. Ole left a mess behind.
2. Nobody could have done better.
I would love to hear one good thing that happened when he was here or one good thing that came out of his having been here.
Saying that “it’s not his fault he was shit” is not really a defence. But I’m not looking to put the boot in; from my perspective, I am really looking at the board and the muddled thinking behind his appointment.
If not Ralf, it didn’t have to be Allardyce but he does actually have the right credentials for a short term appointment. He’s a lot more than a “relegation avoider”. When he got made England manager, there were some dissenting voices but a lot of people could see the merit. At this stage of his career he wouldn’t expect to get the Utd job full time but he would set us up to our strengths from day 1 and I think he would have done a better job than Ralf. As coach. For those few months. And that’s what we needed.
Appointing RR smacks of that clever-clever, self-congratulatory culture in the executive management team. And, from what I can gather, they didn’t want to listen to a word he said.
I think you have hit on the main point of argument here. You think the board were sensible in appointing him. To me it was never going to work.
The kind of changes you’re talking about are a job for pre-season and the new season that follows it - after you recruit players suited to the approach. What we actually needed was a guy to get them back to basics for a few months.
I was always interested in what Rangnick wanted to do with the club. His idea of focusing on developing unknown young players into what we needed, rather than trying to sign big names (or players who look destined for the top) for a lot of money, is something I was willing to get behind. Not to say that I'm against buying already proven players.
Also of interest was his statement of wanting to get rid of several players and bring in a lot more than we, or indeed most other clubs, do in a relatively short period of time. The interesting bit being he may have sold off a couple of players that we would have been surprised to see go (don't ask me who), deeming them unfit for purpose. What I mean by that is that they might be talented players but their attitude stinks and they're not willing to buy into his vision for the team moving forward. It's very unlikely he would have been allowed to do that though.
I believe the squad needs a culture shift of sorts. Currently, there seems to be some elements of self-entitlement, mediocrity and even a bit of hopelessness/resignation from some quarters, about how badly things are run at the club. It would explain the malaise that seems to creep into the game of every player that joins the club.
I do however agree that Rangnick should never have been hired as a coach, but should have been a Sporting Director/DOF, but that's probably far too much to expect from the current hierarchy at the club. In my view, their shortsightedness and cluelessness led to the right man being hired for the wrong role.
Also of interest was his statement of wanting to get rid of several players and bring in a lot more than we, or indeed most other clubs, do in a relatively short period of time. The interesting bit being he may have sold off a couple of players that we would have been surprised to see go (don't ask me who), deeming them unfit for purpose. What I mean by that is that they might be talented players but their attitude stinks and they're not willing to buy into his vision for the team moving forward. It's very unlikely he would have been allowed to do that though.
I believe the squad needs a culture shift of sorts. Currently, there seems to be some elements of self-entitlement, mediocrity and even a bit of hopelessness/resignation from some quarters, about how badly things are run at the club. It would explain the malaise that seems to creep into the game of every player that joins the club.
I do however agree that Rangnick should never have been hired as a coach, but should have been a Sporting Director/DOF, but that's probably far too much to expect from the current hierarchy at the club. In my view, their shortsightedness and cluelessness led to the right man being hired for the wrong role.
Many of you defending Ralf have got it wrong. Most of the guys here against Ralf were the Ole in people. So it doesn't matter if it was Ralf or anyone else. If he had got us into the CL spot they would be silent. Because he failed it gives them a chance to have a go at whoever replaced Ole.
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