Bellingham 150m / Rice 100m

[#07]

Games like yesterday massively illustrated the weakness of both — neither of them can play with the ball in the middle third, they need that conductor type of player there for them. Rice wants to protect and screen the back 4 and that’s about it, whilst Bellingham wants to make runs further forward and impact the final third.

England don’t - and haven’t had for years - the type of central midfielder who kind of sits in the middle of the football field, averages a feck tonne of passes, and ensures the ball circulates around without things getting too stale.

All true and it makes a mockery of the £100m valuations the media puts on these players.

I saw that Florian Plettenberg guy saying again yesterday Dortmund want €150m for Bellingham. How on earth can any club be expected to pay that for the English Leon Goretzka? Yes, Bellingham is a very good player for a specific role. However, he's never going to be a Veratti type midfielder.

The people who say he can do 'everything' just see a big lad, who has good stamina, good touch and passing and gets up and down the field. That's not everything. That's just the stuff we tend to value in England.

As for Rice, Talksport were trying to say he's better than Casemiro two nights ago. Utter madness. Casemiro is levels above him and it's fairly clear Rice will never be able to pass like Casemiro. He's just this generation's David Batty. IMO Nicky Butt was a better player than Declan Rice.

 

[Bebestation]

Games like yesterday massively illustrated the weakness of both — neither of them can play with the ball in the middle third, they need that conductor type of player there for them. Rice wants to protect and screen the back 4 and that’s about it, whilst Bellingham wants to make runs further forward and impact the final third.

England don’t - and haven’t had for years - the type of central midfielder who kind of sits in the middle of the football field, averages a feck tonne of passes, and ensures the ball circulates around without things getting too stale.

It makes it worse that southgate refuses to play players like foden.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Bellingham is certainly being praised way beyond what is reasonable for his talent and achievements so far. Reminds me so much of the overhyping of Sancho, I remember during the last Euros a journo doing a big piece about a guy sitting on the bench that would embarrass Southgate within a few months as he shows himself to be the best player in the Premier League.

If Bellingham is German, he’s rated, for sure, but not to these levels. We’re just a bit fecking mad us English, as the talksport Rice/Casemiro nonsense shows.
Rice is limited as feck, anyone dropping the big bucks on him should be sectioned.

 

[noodlehair]

I'm not convinced by Bellingham...hed struggle in the premier league at the moment but has age on his side....Rice is bang average.

Don't think it's that England don't have the right type of midfielder, they just don't currently have any midfielders at all who are actually any good, and then on top of that a brainless manager who'd rather pick forwards who run blindly into defenders and lose the ball, or nothing entities like Mount, over the likes of Grealish and Foden who can actually give you a degree of control

 

[flappyjay]

Why were these supremely priced players Outplayed by their cheaper American counter parts?

I like Bellingham and I think he should have a fine career. But he is yet another english midfielder whos best qualities are all heavily reliant on goal scoring or creation. So when that doesnt happen, he becomes mostly useless.

Why do England struggle to produce midfielders who are very technical but not focussed on goal scoring? This is the missing piece that I believe stopped England reaching the world final and winning the Euros. In both those games, Croatia and Italy simply controlled the games better than England.

England once upon a time had Scholes and Carrick but preferred midfielders who as you say are not focused on controlling the midfield.

 

[Tarrou]

I’ve previously said that those two could be worth looking at for maximum (around) €30m. Not more. Likely even less. Overrated.

thats a crazy valuation in todays market

 

[DWelbz19]

All true and it makes a mockery of the £100m valuations the media puts on these players.

I saw that Florian Plettenberg guy saying again yesterday Dortmund want €150m for Bellingham. How on earth can any club be expected to pay that for the English Leon Goretzka? Yes, Bellingham is a very good player for a specific role. However, he's never going to be a Veratti type midfielder.

The people who say he can do 'everything' just see a big lad, who has good stamina, good touch and passing and gets up and down the field. That's not everything. That's just the stuff we tend to value in England.

As for Rice, Talksport were trying to say he's better than Casemiro two nights ago. Utter madness. Casemiro is levels above him and it's fairly clear Rice will never be able to pass like Casemiro. He's just this generation's David Batty. IMO Nicky Butt was a better player than Declan Rice.

Yep, agreed.

The Casemiro point is interesting because even where the common perception was that Casemiro was “limited” on the ball, the difference is night and day in terms of mentality and how he actually plays — he’s constantly looking to play things forward, with as few touches as possible.

 

[Trequarista10]

If you added a deep lying playmaker to that midfield instead of Mount (who is good at what he does but isn't that type of player) then it'd have a much better balance.

Bellingham I'd take at United. At 19 he has great potential and I think his personality seems really impressive so I would expect him to keep progressing. In which direction he would develop is unknown so he's a gamble in that sense, will he just improve on what he's already good at or will he add more tools to his skill set? On the plus side, Casemiro is better playing out from the back than Rice, so a Casemiro-Bellingham duo would be better balanced than Rice-Bellingham. His price will be whatever - his contract is up in 2 seasons from the coming summer so 150 is a bit silly imo. Madrid have recently signed some young CMs so can't see them breaking the bank for another, he doesn't suit Barca, doubt he'd be interested in PSG, so a return to England seems inevitable. Dortmund will be hoping for a bidding war. I hope United are in the mix but if the price is silly its better to look elsewhere, as there are multiple positions we need to strengthen.

Rice I think is worth more to West Ham than he is to a top club, because I'm not sure he'd be more than a squad player at a top side, unless the midfield was designed to play to his strengths and accommodate his weaknesses, which I'm not sure his ability would merit. He's an upgrade on McTominay, who could have a career like Milner or Henderson or Barry or Fletcher or Mikel - but he's not in the tier of key midfielders at title winning sides like Keane, Vieira, Makelele, Fernandinho, Fabinho, Casemiro etc. I also find Rice's personality a bit cringe, even though the media always fawn over him.

 

[Bondi77]

At those prices they are staying put.

 

[Woodzy]

Overpriced players but also players that will perform much better in a better team. England have a ton of exciting talent at their disposal right now so the fact that Southgate has led them into another World Cup is a joke really. What a waste.

 

[FrankDrebin]

There was actually a Rice vs Casemiro comparison ?

 

[Chief123]

Pedri would cost 1B (release clause)
PSG did Barca dirty with Neymar.
But I am with you about Jude.It is just crazy money for someone who had few good games in BL.

Obviously ignoring the release clauses which are ridiculous in Spain. If Barca accepted a fee the clause wouldn’t matter.

But as good as Bellingham is I think you could have the pick of any midfielder in the world at the quoted prices.

 

[Oranges038]

Musah has looked better than both.

Rice looks like he doesn't want the ball and is way over priced at that money. 50m would be enough.

Bellingham is still young and can't impose himself on these types games yet, your paying for potential but still way over priced.

 

[Chief123]

There was actually a Rice vs Casemiro comparison ?

Even though I think casemiro is a beast I don’t like these kind of comparisons as it’s not apples for apples.

One has fulfilled his potential and won everything in the game and at the back end of his career. Rice is only just starting his career.

 

[izak]

Dear me, we should go nowhere near those two we should be looking at players like Musah and Adams

 

[cyberman]

Even though I think casemiro is a beast I don’t like these kind of comparisons as it’s not apples for apples.

One has fulfilled his potential and won everything in the game and at the back end of his career. Rice is only just starting his career.

Rice will be 24 in 2 months. You don’t suddenly become so good that you’re compared to Casemiro at 24.
Rice has had such an average 12 months that I wouldn’t even compare him to a Henderson never mind Casemiro

 

[Chief123]

Rice will be 24 in 2 months. You don’t suddenly become so good that you’re compared to Casemiro at 24.
Rice has had such an average 12 months that I wouldn’t even compare him to a Henderson never mind Casemiro

Still 6 years younger than Casemiro. Casemiro had won nothing at Real Madrid 7 years ago. Won 5 UCLs since. Not saying he’s going to end up the same level but it doesn’t make sense doing a comparison with each other as they are different levels of their career. Its like comparing Nunez with Suarez.

Rice hasn’t been average at all in the last 12 months. Been West Ham’s stand out player in an average team.

 

[Niemans]

You could probably get Pedri for cheaper than Bellingham will cost even though Pedri has a bigger potential for me.

Barcelona does not sell Pedri. You have a player for 10+ years with a spectacular level.
With that money you can sign a substitute, which will cost a lot of money and possibly will not have his level.

If you added a deep lying playmaker to that midfield instead of Mount (who is good at what he does but isn't that type of player) then it'd have a much better balance.

Bellingham I'd take at United. At 19 he has great potential and I think his personality seems really impressive so I would expect him to keep progressing. In which direction he would develop is unknown so he's a gamble in that sense, will he just improve on what he's already good at or will he add more tools to his skill set? On the plus side, Casemiro is better playing out from the back than Rice, so a Casemiro-Bellingham duo would be better balanced than Rice-Bellingham. His price will be whatever - his contract is up in 2 seasons from the coming summer so 150 is a bit silly imo. Madrid have recently signed some young CMs so can't see them breaking the bank for another, he doesn't suit Barca, doubt he'd be interested in PSG, so a return to England seems inevitable. Dortmund will be hoping for a bidding war. I hope United are in the mix but if the price is silly its better to look elsewhere, as there are multiple positions we need to strengthen.

Rice I think is worth more to West Ham than he is to a top club, because I'm not sure he'd be more than a squad player at a top side, unless the midfield was designed to play to his strengths and accommodate his weaknesses, which I'm not sure his ability would merit. He's an upgrade on McTominay, who could have a career like Milner or Henderson or Barry or Fletcher or Mikel - but he's not in the tier of key midfielders at title winning sides like Keane, Vieira, Makelele, Fernandinho, Fabinho, Casemiro etc. I also find Rice's personality a bit cringe, even though the media always fawn over him.

Madrid will try to sign him. Modric and Kross are already at the end of their career and Ceballos has not yet renewed.

 

[Chief123]

Barcelona does not sell Pedri. You have a player for 10+ years with a spectacular level.
With that money you can sign a substitute, which will cost a lot of money and possibly will not have his level.

I personally don’t see Pedri leaving as he seems a classic one club player for Barca. Wouldn’t be surprised to see him spend most of his career there.

 

[the_cliff]

All true and it makes a mockery of the £100m valuations the media puts on these players.

I saw that Florian Plettenberg guy saying again yesterday Dortmund want €150m for Bellingham. How on earth can any club be expected to pay that for the English Leon Goretzka? Yes, Bellingham is a very good player for a specific role. However, he's never going to be a Veratti type midfielder.

The people who say he can do 'everything' just see a big lad, who has good stamina, good touch and passing and gets up and down the field. That's not everything. That's just the stuff we tend to value in England.

As for Rice, Talksport were trying to say he's better than Casemiro two nights ago. Utter madness. Casemiro is levels above him and it's fairly clear Rice will never be able to pass like Casemiro. He's just this generation's David Batty. IMO Nicky Butt was a better player than Declan Rice.

Agreed.

People seem to be overrating Bellingham. He's not really a good passer, he's a safe passer, there's a big difference between a safe and good passer.

Pedri is a good passer, the difference between Pedri's passing and that of Rice and Bellingham is incredible.

Even Rabiot is a better passer than both Rice and Bellingham.

 

[2cents]

England don’t - and haven’t had for years - the type of central midfielder who kind of sits in the middle of the football field, averages a feck tonne of passes, and ensures the ball circulates around without things getting too stale.

Been a major weakness for England for as long as I’ve been watching football. Unfortunately for them by the time Scholes had transitioned into that role in the mid-2000s he had retired from international football, but even then it’s doubtful he’d have been used properly if he was still available.

But yeah, England have always lacked midfielders like Veratti, Modric, Thiago, etc., and their managers have always lacked the tactical know-how to compensate.

 

[Hammondo]

Bellingham isn't focused on goal scoring, in fact he's only recently added that to his game. He's a player that can do almost everything in midfield. He's been further forward this season as Dortmund set him the challenge of adding goals to his game

He can't dictate play that's for sure.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I wouldn't want either. Both are ridiculously overrated.

 

[cyberman]

Still 6 years younger than Casemiro. Casemiro had won nothing at Real Madrid 7 years ago. Won 5 UCLs since. Not saying he’s going to end up the same level but it doesn’t make sense doing a comparison with each other as they are different levels of their career. Its like comparing Nunez with Suarez.

Rice hasn’t been average at all in the last 12 months. Been West Ham’s stand out player in an average team.

But you could see the quality and I’m pretty sure he won a CL by the time he was 24? Stepping up though midfield, the first time, around the corner passes to progress the ball from deep. He was showing it all. Rice was getting butchered by Ray Houghton last night for constantly refusing to switch the play to Shaw who was free all night just to play it safe in front of him. He either can’t play that ball or turns it down, either way it just as bad. It’s his bad habit of becoming an unnecessary 3rd CN that holds him back.
Rice has been average, he doesn’t step up v lesser teams and so have lost numerous midfield battles because of it. Every other game they’re struggling through midfield, it’s shocking how you’re pretending that’s not the case.
I’ll make it easier, when is the last West Ham game that didn’t involve backs against the wall had you coming away thinking Rice was the best midfielder on that pitch? Last night was Rice in a nutshell, difference is if he plays that exact same way v France the narrative changes to he had an excellent game because British football is weird.

 

[Hammondo]

Rice is very limited, been saying that since we was spoken about here. He suits a team who's gonna be defending a lot.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Rice is absolutely bang average and I'm still hoping Chelsea one day drop 100m on him. Bellingham? Honestly, this one is puzzling I'm really not sure what he's meant to excel at... Again, hopefully Liverpool are the mugs that drop 150m on him, or whatever ludicrous amount that Dortmund want.

 

[Dannn411]

Neither. Tyler adams and Joao Palhinha.

 

[I’m loving my life]

Who was the last English prospect who wasn’t actually overrated and realised the potential our ridiculous press put onto them? Rooney?

The exorbitant price tag and wages get them in the end. Money is like a kryptonite. All the marketing, brands, social media crap doesn’t help either. We’re guilty of it more than most with the likes of Sancho, Rashford, Lingard et al.

 

[Bosnian_fan]

Agreed.

People seem to be overrating Bellingham. He's not really a good passer, he's a safe passer, there's a big difference between a safe and good passer.

Pedri is a good passer, the difference between Pedri's passing and that of Rice and Bellingham is incredible.

Even Rabiot is a better passer than both Rice and Bellingham.

Very nice comparison, absolutely agreed.

Who was the last English prospect who wasn’t actually overrated and realised the potential our ridiculous press put onto them? Rooney?

The exorbitant price tag and wages get them in the end. Money is like a kryptonite. All the marketing, brands, social media crap doesn’t help either. We’re guilty of it more than most with the likes of Sancho, Rashford, Lingard et al.

I agree with this, would also add that strange things are valued in players. To me for example, the only players worthy of hype would be the ones that have extremely high potential to reach the top. I've seen Belingham mentioned as potential Ballon d'Or winner, and I may see football wrongly, but without passing as the_cliff mentioned, he's never going to come even close to the select bracket of midfielders like Xavi, Iniesta, Modric, Pirlo, even Verratti.

These players are by far the most important in team, you can fill in remaining two slots much more easily.

As for Rice, never understood the hype. England should find a way and start teaching young midfielders to actually pass and play football, rather than run, tackle and show spirit.

 

[MrMarcello]

Rice is arguably the most overrated, overhyped English player that I can recall.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Think we've already signed too many vastly over-priced and over-rated English players over the last few years.

 

[Josh 76]

The hype on these players is unreal. They will never be fit enough to even tie Gazza and Hoddles laces.

 

[TheLiverBird]

I can’t fathom why Bellingham is reportedly priced anywhere near £150 million

he’s 19 and not really achieved anything yet

he’s got a lot going for him of course he has, youngest player to ever captain a Bundesliga side etc, show some fantastic performances for both Dortmund and England, had the right…..atmosphere about him too

but none of that means he should be Valued at 150 million plus right now

hes 19!! Honestly football gets madder and madder

If Haaland hadn’t got that clause in his contract allowing him to go for cheap as chips in football terms, he’d have probably cost £150m-£200m maybe abit more

Yet that is where a 19 year old is apparently at valuation wise, madness

Personally hope Bellingham comes too Liverpool, but at these prices it’s heavily doubtful

 

[Chief123]

It’s amazing how Bellingham has gone from an absolute must signing for every top team in Europe to now being an overrated overpriced player in 4 days.

He’s always going to be over priced because he’s British and EPL tax. But he’s going right to the top, no doubt about it. Let’s not forget Southgate is the worlds greatest manager at making top players look average.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

It’s amazing how Bellingham has gone from an absolute must signing for every top team in Europe to now being an overrated overpriced player in 4 days.

He’s always going to be over priced because he’s British and EPL tax. But he’s going right to the top, no doubt about it. Let’s not forget Southgate is the worlds greatest manager at making top players look average.

I've only ever seen him play for Dortmund a number of times - haven't watched him for England - maybe I'm unlucky and only seen the matches where he was anonymous but was left underwhelmed

 

[Chief123]

I've only ever seen him play for Dortmund a number of times - haven't watched him for England - maybe I'm unlucky and only seen the matches where he was anonymous but was left underwhelmed

You’ve done well to consistently find games where he’s been anonymous for Dortmund mate! He’s been their biggest influence this season. Fantastic goal scoring form too.

 

[Footyislife]

We should avoid the over hyped English talent unless they are in the last year of their contract. It used to be a strategy we could execute because of our clout and limited financial competition but now it's not viable. (Sancho, Shaw, Maguire aren't exactly lighting it up on huge wages/transfer fees)

We do a great job developing our own to meet HG requirements & pairing that with foreign talent.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You’ve done well to consistently find games where he’s been anonymous for Dortmund mate! He’s been their biggest influence this season. Fantastic goal scoring form too.

Dortmund have lost six times already and I saw quite a few of them. Dortmund fans don't want me to watch

 

[Bebestation]

People only rate deep lying playmakers it seems.

 

[90 + 5min]

thats a crazy valuation in todays market

Maybe. But for me even in todays market, they are not worth nowhere near what media writes. Bellingham is a talent and that is it. Rice is I don't know what to say. I would almost be tempted to say that he is few steps below our own O'Shea. Usefull player but best position is on the bench where you can throw him in where it is needed. I don't remember anyone saying O'Shea would cost enormous money.