Bellingham 150m / Rice 100m

[Trequarista10]

Madrid will try to sign him. Modric and Kross are already at the end of their career and Ceballos has not yet renewed.

What does that have to do with my point that they recently signed Camavinga and Tchouameni?

 

[Camilo]

Bellingham is just a bang average English midfielder. It's the same old issue as the op says. This is as good as he'll get.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Ten Hag is too clever to sanction dropping that kind of money on players unless he is 100% sure they are what he needs. He seems to be pretty good at the transfer game, so far.

 

[OrcaFat]

Both of these players are very good.

It’s futile to get hung up on these prices which are tossed into the conversation by journos or managers who don’t want the players to be sold.

At the same time it doesn’t make much sense to say £80m tops or whatever because the market is always changing and there’s no accepted barometers - by that I mean we can’t say “Antony cost £90m therefore Jude is worth £80m” because no-one can agree that what was paid (e.g. for Antony) is the true value.

I suppose you can look at the players we have and wonder how much we need Rice or Bellingham and I would say not at all at the moment. In two years when Case and Eriksen have declined and Rice and Bellingham have improved we will probably need them very much. (Then people might say “why didn’t we buy them two years ago”, hey ho.)

 

[Member 101269]

Both of these players are very good.

It’s futile to get hung up on these prices which are tossed into the conversation by journos or managers who don’t want the players to be sold.

At the same time it doesn’t make much sense to say £80m tops or whatever because the market is always changing and there’s no accepted barometers - by that I mean we can’t say “Antony cost £90m therefore Jude is worth £80m” because no-one can agree that what was paid (e.g. for Antony) is the true value.

I suppose you can look at the players we have and wonder how much we need Rice or Bellingham and I would say not at all at the moment. In two years when Case and Eriksen have declined and Rice and Bellingham have improved we will probably need them very much. (Then people might say “why didn’t we buy them two years ago”, hey ho.)

They got outplayed by the USA, Rice looked like a midfield version of Maguire, running in mud he's so slow.

 

[cyberman]

They got outplayed by the USA, Rice looked like a midfield version of Maguire, running in mud he's so slow.

Remember when all of the Rice supporters were in here blowing smoke up Rices ass for a few forward passes? He’s added so much to his game and all that nonsense.
When was the last time something like that was posted? That died a death pretty quickly but he’s still “Playing well”

 

[Niemans]

What does that have to do with my point that they recently signed Camavinga and Tchouameni?

"Madrid have recently signed some young CMs so can't see them breaking the bank for another". You have said this.

I just disagree and think Madrid will make a great offer for Bellingham. Around €100M and some variables.

 

[kirk buttercup]

I fear it would be a Sancho type signing. He looks Rolls Royce in the Bundesliga but when he gets to the Premier league he will be more like a Ford focus . Will do a job but not quite what you thought you were buying

 

[Bebestation]

Rice is one of my favorite players.

We don’t need him anymore because Casemiro is obviously a better player who is now in his prime or approaching the final years of it. Casemiro is a beautiful special player to watch.

However, When I’ve looked at how players like Rashford, Mctominay, & Martial have improved passing and decision making under 6 months of coaching by Ten Hag - then I can’t necessarily forget that players like Rice is only 23 and has only ever really had coaching of Moyes and Southgate.

I’ve seen Rice make more progressive passes for West Ham than for England - so I don’t necessarily think he is incapable. It’s more that he is playing a very defensive game under Southgate due to the managers tactics. The other aspect of Rice’s passing is he can be overly safe and secure and make passes that are not very creative - again I have seen him do this for West Ham but he has clearly has a mindset of being safe first and foremost.

Maybe it’s just me, but if he ever got to work under a manager like Ten Hag or managers that can help coach his players weaknesses then I believe he could become more all rounded player. His defensive game and dribbling doesn’t need as much coaching as his passing does.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I can see Bellingham being a Tielemans level PL player. The guy is laughably overrated.

 

[Bert_]

The English academy system must be a joke, how they haven't develop a single midfielder mastero in the Continental mold since Paul Scholes is beyond me, add the available talent pool and the money that easily trumps whatever the Spanish and the others have and it becomes a farce.

I rather we look to the continent than the outdated British model.

Who has on the continent (or anywhere) has tbf? Special players like that aren't mass produced.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

I always assumed Bellingham would go to Real but they need a Kroos replacement and he ain’t it

 

[ThatsGreat]

I think the Sancho transfer closes the door on any large sums being spent in Bellingham. If he's available for a reasonable fee 70m or thereabouts, then someone might take him, otherwise its not going to happen.

 

[Lee565]

Why waste such money when you can get a player like Caicedo for probably 50 million or de Jong for around 70-80 million, we have seen how overrated English players are when golden by grealish has been a complete flop but luckily man City are a small club that don't get same scrutiny as say Liverpool, United, Madrid, Barca etc...

 

[Red the Bear]

Who has on the continent (or anywhere) has tbf? Special players like that aren't mass produced.

Fair enough but it seems they don't even try, look at the most successful recent English products it's the likes of rice, Bellingham,mount etc etc so the trend is clear.

 

[Trequarista10]

"Madrid have recently signed some young CMs so can't see them breaking the bank for another". You have said this.

I just disagree and think Madrid will make a great offer for Bellingham. Around €100M and some variables.

I just don't see it personally. Would be a huge gamble to stack their midfield with 3 expensive youngsters. And it's probably more likely Bellingham would favour the PL anyway.

 

[Cassidy]

Sign Enzo Fernandes for 50m.
Neither of these two will be 50-100m better than him

 

[IFC 1905]

Sign Enzo Fernandes for 50m.
Neither of these two will be 50-100m better than him

Enzo won't leave Benfica for less than 100M

 

[Cassidy]

Enzo won't leave Benfica for less than 100M

We’ll see

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

It'd be unfair to cast doubt on any player off the back of a single match, and although he's never impressed me massively I've not seen nearly enough of Bellingham to give a reasonable appraisal of him.

With Rice, though, I haven't yet seen where the hype comes from. He's a very good player, don't get me wrong, but for a player that teams would purportedly be willing to spend close to nine figure sums on he seems fairly unexceptional.

Defensive midfielders like Rodri, Casemiro, and Fabinho are of course not players you will easily stumble upon. Furthermore, as somebody else in this thread rightly pointed out, they're all later in their careers than Rice so the comparison is perhaps not entirely fair. With that said, I just don't think Rice is excellent enough at anything to make me think he will reach that level.

Rice definitely has the ability and mentality to impose himself on matches at the highest level, and that in itself is highly commendable for a midfielder of his age. I guess my question mark around him would be whether or not he has the technical quality or the game intelligence required to take control of a game from midfield. In my mind, that's what would be needed to justify the price tag being attached to him right now, and I just haven't yet seen it in him.

 

[Bert_]

They thought Jack Wilshere would be a fantastic technical magican. Even Lallana was hyped up at one point to being that kind of player for them.

He was before his "injuries" ruined him. Lallana was never hyped up by anyone other than the scousers. Even they backed down after a season or so after he signed.

 

[Abraxas]

It'd be unfair to cast doubt on any player off the back of a single match, and although he's never impressed me massively I've not seen nearly enough of Bellingham to give a reasonable appraisal of him.

With Rice, though, I haven't yet seen where the hype comes from. He's a very good player, don't get me wrong, but for a player that teams would purportedly be willing to spend close to nine figure sums on he seems fairly unexceptional.

Defensive midfielders like Rodri, Casemiro, and Fabinho are of course not players you will easily stumble upon. Furthermore, as somebody else in this thread rightly pointed out, they're all later in their careers than Rice so the comparison is perhaps not entirely fair. With that said, I just don't think Rice is excellent enough at anything to make me think he will reach that level.

Rice definitely has the ability and mentality to impose himself on matches at the highest level, and that in itself is highly commendable for a midfielder of his age. I guess my question mark around him would be whether or not he has the technical quality or the game intelligence required to take control of a game from midfield. In my mind, that's what would be needed to justify the price tag being attached to him right now, and I just haven't yet seen it in him.

Purportedly is the key word there. Who has actually showed any concrete interest in Rice at that price? Nobody as far as I can see.

It's just a West Ham price, which can easily be translated to "we don't really want to sell, and have no big incentive to sell, but if somebody is stupid enough..."

Yet for whatever reason everybody has grasped onto this price tag and everything Rice does revolves around it as if he said himself that he's worth 100 million quid. He's never going to be that special that he justifies such a fee and if people are expecting to see that, it is not going to happen. Doesn't mean he's not a very good youngish DM, with decent experience behind him that many teams would be interested in if the situation changes.

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

Purportedly is the key word there. Who has actually showed any concrete interest in Rice at that price? Nobody as far as I can see.

It's just a West Ham price, which can easily be translated to "we don't really want to sell, and have no big incentive to sell, but if somebody is stupid enough..."

Yet for whatever reason everybody has grasped onto this price tag and everything Rice does revolves around it as if he said himself that he's worth 100 million quid. He's never going to be that special that he justifies such a fee and if people are expecting to see that, it is not going to happen. Doesn't mean he's not a very good youngish DM, with decent experience behind him that many teams would be interested in if the situation changes.

I'd agree with all of that. I guess my point is that, even putting aside his hypothetical price tag, I think the hype around Rice is (or at least was) above where it should have been given his ability.

 

[cyberman]

Purportedly is the key word there. Who has actually showed any concrete interest in Rice at that price? Nobody as far as I can see.

It's just a West Ham price, which can easily be translated to "we don't really want to sell, and have no big incentive to sell, but if somebody is stupid enough..."

Yet for whatever reason everybody has grasped onto this price tag and everything Rice does revolves around it as if he said himself that he's worth 100 million quid. He's never going to be that special that he justifies such a fee and if people are expecting to see that, it is not going to happen. Doesn't mean he's not a very good youngish DM, with decent experience behind him that many teams would be interested in if the situation changes.

https://punditarena.com/football/andrewdempsey/declan-rice-best-players-in-the-world/?amp

 

[OrcaFat]

They got outplayed by the USA, Rice looked like a midfield version of Maguire, running in mud he's so slow.

You will struggle to find a single serious person who thinks their performance in that game has any bearing on whether they should be considered good players.

 

[Abraxas]

https://punditarena.com/football/andrewdempsey/declan-rice-best-players-in-the-world/?amp

He says the price tag is crazy so I'm not sure if that's supposed to support my point or disprove it.

Also backs himself, which is what you're supposed to do as an elite athlete. If Rice doesn't believe he's one of the top players in his position what chance is there..

Nothing really to see.

 

[Member 101269]

You will struggle to find a single serious person who thinks their performance in that game has any bearing on whether they should be considered good players.

I wrote about the game, what is your point?

 

[Hammondo]

https://punditarena.com/football/andrewdempsey/declan-rice-best-players-in-the-world/?amp

So he's right then?

 

[RedStarUnited]

It’s a weird trend post Barcelona especially for United fans whos best midfielders of all time are probably Keane and Robson.

is it weird? We didnt become a strong CL side until Carrick was about and Scholes dropped deeper.

England have no control in the games against good teams. Unless that is sorted they will never win anything.

I watched a documentary about world cup winning teams recently. It was interesting to hear the Germans talk about what they think helped them become world champions in 2014. After losing to Spain in Euro 2008 and World cup 2010 they made sure to emphasise the ability to control games. They believed that was the edge Spain had over them and everyone else in that period.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

You will struggle to find a single serious person who thinks their performance in that game has any bearing on whether they should be considered good players.

Not on the caf you won't. World class one game, bang average the next.

 

[Remember the geese]

Such hype surrounding these two. It's night and day when you then go and watch the Croatian midfield.

 

[Vapor trail]

Irrespective of the USA game I have been skeptical about Bellingham's praise. Like the typicality of English media he is herald as the saviour of the midfield. I do think Jude is a good player but for me he's not as good as he's being made out to be. I think 100 million Euros represents realistic value.

 

[Basso]

People who truly believe Dortmund will sell him for only 100, will get a wake up call soon.
He will be more expensive than Dembele.

 

[cyberman]

He says the price tag is crazy so I'm not sure if that's supposed to support my point or disprove it.

Also backs himself, which is what you're supposed to do as an elite athlete. If Rice doesn't believe he's one of the top players in his position what chance is there..

Nothing really to see.

He thinks he’s one of the best players in the world and West Ham price him as one. Even if Rice wants to move you’re not going to see Rice demand WH accept a realistic fee because he isn’t realistic with himself

 

[Abraxas]

He thinks he’s one of the best players in the world and West Ham price him as one. Even if Rice wants to move you’re not going to see Rice demand WH accept a realistic fee because he isn’t realistic with himself

What does it have to do with anything? You're talking about him hypothetically receiving concrete interest and a hypothetical negotiation between him and the club. It's not at that position so who cares, you're going down a blind alley with that. What we've actually got is a player that values West Ham, as they gave him the chance, and the club have a position regardless of what Declan thinks of himself.

It doesn't mean he's objectively worth 100 million as the sum of his attributes it means West Ham want 100 million quid. So why people cannot separate these two things and see he's a very good player instead of overcompensating is strange to me and that was my main point. There's an obsession around a fee that isn't even likely.

Also he should believe he's one of the best in his position. Whether he is or isn't he should have belief, as long as he works on his shortcomings. Not even any point rocking up at the elite end of club football without it.

 

[cyberman]

What does it have to do with anything? You're talking about him hypothetically receiving concrete interest and a hypothetical negotiation between him and the club. It's not at that position so who cares, you're going down a blind alley with that. What we've actually got is a player that values West Ham, as they gave him the chance, and the club have a position regardless of what Declan thinks of himself.

It doesn't mean he's objectively worth 100 million as the sum of his attributes it means West Ham want 100 million quid. So why people cannot separate these two things and see he's a very good player instead of overcompensating is strange to me and that was my main point. There's an obsession around a fee that isn't even likely.

Also he should believe he's one of the best in his position. Whether he is or isn't he should have belief, as long as he works on his shortcomings. Not even any point rocking up at the elite end of club football without it.

No, I’m saying where is the fee coming down when West Ham prices him as one of the best midfielders in the world and Rice sees himself as such as well? It’s easy to say he won’t cost 100m when his detractors point out how absurd a move would be when everything points to it being a genuine transfer fee demand. It can’t be just hand waved away.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Much like Kane being 'stuck' at Spurs due to his overinflated transfer fee, and, as a result, will never win anything. Same with Rice and Bellingham with their unrealistic transfer fees.

They're both priced out of the market and will either have to run their contracts down to move, or keep taking pay rises and accept that they are never going to win any major honours.

 

[Chairman Steve]

We should have got Enzo Fernandez for like £15m or whatever the figure was back in January and laugh at the £150m price tag on Bellingham.

 

[Rauður Djöfull]

We should have got Enzo Fernandez for like £15m or whatever the figure was back in January and laugh at the £150m price tag on Bellingham.

Agreed
Hope we go for him next summer

 

[Righteous Steps]

is it weird? We didnt become a strong CL side until Carrick was about and Scholes dropped deeper.

England have no control in the games against good teams. Unless that is sorted they will never win anything.

I watched a documentary about world cup winning teams recently. It was interesting to hear the Germans talk about what they think helped them become world champions in 2014. After losing to Spain in Euro 2008 and World cup 2010 they made sure to emphasise the ability to control games. They believed that was the edge Spain had over them and everyone else in that period.

England need more controllers, i don’t disagree, playmakers like Carrick Scholes at the end of his career, Pirlo etc. But at the same time they shouldn't disregard also the physical aspect of the game because at the end of the day Football is still a sport. If for example Pirlo didn’t have the runners around him he had in midfield he wouldn’t look as good, he played in midfields with the likes of Seedorf Gattuso Kaka for a reason, all these players had certain elite athletic attributes. Gattusp probably being the least athletic but he made up for it with his tenacity and aggression.

Spain have only ever won a Euros and World Cup once in their history, I see why they’re used as a template because they provided some of the best clubs sides of all time, but I would say England should take more inspiration from France because they have a far more similar demographics to a England than Spain does.

They also have far more international success doing it their own way, they didn’t need a Xavi or Busquets to win their last World Cup, there is more than one way to skin a cat as they say.