Why has the French national team been so good since 1998?

horsechoker

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4 World Cup finals, 2 won so far.

1 European Championship
1 nations league

Prior to 98 they only won a single European Championship

So what changed?

The immigration line seems too simplistic as other European nations haven't improved so drastically.
 
horsechoker said:
4 World Cup finals, 2 won so far.

1 European Championship
1 nations league

Prior to 98 they only won a single European Championship

So what changed?

The immigration line seems too simplistic as other European nations haven't improved so drastically.
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West African immigration and heritage, many of their best players moved to France or their parents moved to France. Combined with good coaching, good players and government investment

DiOiK9YXcAAxViw.jpg
 
I don't know how much "immigration" can explain when people are immigrants from countries that aren't particularly great at football.
 
The federation and the Ligue clubs develop players better than any other country, by a long way. Even without Pogba, Kante, Benzema, L Hernandez and others, they've still made the final! Ridiculous levels of depth.

Part of that might be that it's the business model of French clubs to develop and sell players on, they need the money to survive, when they sell players other youth players get a chance in the first team, so the cycle goes on. Similar to how Athletic Bilbao operate but on a bigger level. When you can't or won't ever buy players, you have to have an amazing youth system.
 
I think what we're seeing is similar to why Brazil were so good back in the day. You have this mixture of different cultures combining, each one brings something different to the table. If you have good coaching and scouting setups the pathways for progression are open for players to develop. You end up with this sort of perfect soup of different styles coming together as a team and it all just kind of works for some reason.

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I wonder how long it will take before their clubs have success on the big stage.
 
Their talent pool is amazing. It's also why "farmer's league" is an idiotic label since they've supplied the prem with some of the best players that have ever played here.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I don't know how much "immigration" can explain when people are immigrants from countries that aren't particularly great at football.
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My wife being an immigrant I can tell you there are few people as determined and with as much grit and perseverance as immigrants. She had to fight tooth and nail to get to where she is on her way to become a cardiologist with her own medical practice. And having done that she still doesn’t stop. Where other colleagues get comfortable, she keeps going to each cardiology congress and seminar, reads every new study or paper.

Talent is not just about good genes, more than 11 in each country have those to excel in football. You also need the mindset to make the absolute most out of your talent if you want to be one of the 0.01 elite in something. You basically have to dedicate your life to it.

Most people in the west have comfortable cushions to fall back onto if they don’t make it as a pro. But if football is your one shot for a better life you’ll put more than 100% into it. And of course you’re going to need guidance and role models.

It’s why Brazil has always been extraordinary because the kids from the favelas have both the mindset and those role models. In most countries in Africa they lack the footballing infrastructure and expertise to nurture elite talent on a similar level. But send those kids to Clairefontaine and they’ll become extraordinary.
 
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Because Anthony Martial has been alive for every World Cup since 1998
 
Bondi77 said:
I wonder how long it will take before their clubs have success on the big stage.
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Forever and then some. Players are leaving for money and there is no reason for it to stop anytime soon.
 
jadajos said:
My wife being an immigrant I can tell you there are few people as determined and with as much grit and perseverance as immigrants. She had to fight tooth and nail to get to where she is on her way to become a cardiologist with her own medical practice. And having done that she still doesn’t stop. Where other colleagues get comfortable, she keeps going to each cardiology congress and seminar, reads every new study or paper. Talent is not just about good genes, more than 11 in each country have those to excel in football. You also need the mindset to make the absolute most out of your talent if you want to be one of the 0.01 elite in something. You basically have to dedicate your life to it. Most people in the west have comfortable cushions to fall back onto if they don’t make it as a pro. But if football is your one shot for a better life you’ll put more than 100% into it. And of course you’re going to need guidance and role models.
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France has a similar percentage of immigrant population as Spain (15%), and Spain does not have an NT full of children of immigrants. Spain was also the most succesful NT of the previous decade. I think that would indicate something other than immigration is at play.
 
Moby said:
Other European countries don't have the same connections in Africa as France does. They have systematically poached the best talent out of there.
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Sure they don't have "same connections", but other European countries don't have the same connections in the Caribbean/Nigeria/Southeast Asia/India as England, and England has systematically poached the best talent out of wherever they could. Yet they won absolutely nothing in the last decades, compared to France's domination (same could be said about many other European and non-European countries, not only England).
Unless you suggest Western Africans are far superior in football compared to regions from where England and other poach their national team players, or you suggest France poaches more aggressively, this doesn't make too much sense.

Also "poaching" is a tricky topic there, how can you compare so many different cases? Was Mbappe poached, if his mother was France born, or poaching only applies to players like Saka/Sterling with both foreign-born parents? Is it poaching when England goes for an Irish-heritage player?
 
Red Star One said:
Also "poaching" is a tricky topic there, how can you compare so many different cases? Was Mbappe poached, if his mother was France born, or poaching only applies to players like Saka/Sterling with both foreign-born parents? Is it poaching when England goes for an Irish-heritage player?
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No one who was born in the country they played with was poached in any meaningful way.

There is nothing tricky going on here, people are just assuming these players were born in Africa because they're black.
 
Massive, multi-ethnic, multi-cultural population, a rich country, great infrastructures and investment into the sport, great coaching at youth level and a league that is built on developing talents to sell them for a profit

Or maybe it's just the water, i dunno. Platini was a 3rd generation french, from italian immigrants, Kopa was polish, Fontaine was algerian, Zidane algerian, Benzema algerian, Henry carribbean(west african origin), Cantona catalunyan, Mbappé is half cameroonian half algerian...hell even Griezmann is alsatian and those people are basically germans :D

There's never been a truly great french player of french ancestry, but drop someone from literally anywhere else in the world in france and he'll turn into a world class player :lol:

Yes, most of this post is tongue-in-cheek
 
They're born in France, and are French. Not sure how that'd be classed as poaching. But clearly kids born to immigrants since the 80s have made the difference. France had a cracking side in the 80s too, to be fair.
 
giorno said:
Massive, multi-ethnic, multi-cultural population, a rich country, great infrastructures and investment into the sport, great coaching at youth level and a league that is built on developing talents to sell them for a profit

Or maybe it's just the water, i dunno. Platini was a 3rd generation french, from italian immigrants, Kopa was polish, Fontaine was algerian, Zidane algerian, Benzema algerian, Henry carribbean(west african origin), Cantona catalunyan, Mbappé is half cameroonian half algerian...hell even Griezmann is alsatian and those people are basically germans :D

There's never been a truly great french player of french ancestry, but drop someone from literally anywhere else in the world in france and he'll turn into a world class player :lol:

Yes, most of this post is tongue-in-cheek
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Papin, former Ballon d'Or :D
 
There is a video of this on youtube. Basically immigration from west and north west africa.

The other thing it mentioned is that france has the most players born in france playing for other national teams, in the last world cup anyway.
 
giorno said:
Massive, multi-ethnic, multi-cultural population, a rich country, great infrastructures and investment into the sport, great coaching at youth level and a league that is built on developing talents to sell them for a profit

Or maybe it's just the water, i dunno. Platini was a 3rd generation french, from italian immigrants, Kopa was polish, Fontaine was algerian, Zidane algerian, Benzema algerian, Henry carribbean(west african origin), Cantona catalunyan, Mbappé is half cameroonian half algerian...hell even Griezmann is alsatian and those people are basically germans :D

There's never been a truly great french player of french ancestry, but drop someone from literally anywhere else in the world in france and he'll turn into a world class player :lol:

Yes, most of this post is tongue-in-cheek
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Fontaine was born in Morocco to a French father and a Spanish mum.
 
I believe France don't have the same issue the other Western European nations have with low birth rates, and thus an increasingly small talent pool.
 
Let's not get into purity arguments.

It doesn't explain why England, Germany, the Netherlands and many more haven't been much better than they were prior to 98.

I'd say England have been about the same

Holland are probably a bit worse

And Germany are about the same. Its hard to say if they've been better or worse because they've still gone deep in many tournaments.
 
I bet the white French hate these non white folk representing France. I'm not saying France is a right wing mess full of racists but...
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
No one who was born in the country they played with was poached in any meaningful way.

There is nothing tricky going on here, people are just assuming these players were born in Africa because they're black.
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There you go, the correct answer.

The first paragraph is also correct, it's quite funny how people hate on France-born, France-trained, France-living players calling them "not real French" because they're black and their parents were immigrants but then again there is zero criticism towards countries like Morocco relying almost exclusively on foreign-born, foreign-trained, foreign-living players.
 
Red Star One said:
There you go, the correct answer.

The first paragraph is also correct, it's quite funny how people hate on France-born, France-trained, France-living players calling them "not real French" because they're black and their parents were immigrants but then again there is zero criticism towards countries like Morocco relying almost exclusively on foreign-born, foreign-trained, foreign-living players.
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Christ, here come the anti Morocco brigade. Aziz Bouderbala hates you.
 
Moby said:
Other European countries don't have the same connections in Africa as France does. They have systematically poached the best talent out of there.
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I mean these players were, for the most part, born in and raised in France and developed by France. The way you typed that post makes it seem as though France are offering citizenships and scholarships to talented teenage players from Africa to steal them for their own national team.
 
horsechoker said:
Let's not get into purity arguments.

It doesn't explain why England, Germany, the Netherlands and many more haven't been much better than they were prior to 98.

I'd say England have been about the same

Holland are probably a bit worse

And Germany are about the same. Its hard to say if they've been better or worse because they've still gone deep in many tournaments.
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As you said, the reason is Germany and England were big footballing countries long before France. The netherlands lack population size, so you can't expect the same generational continuity from them. Occasionally they'll have a very special generation, but it won't be continuous. France only really broke out as a big footballing country in the 80s, and have been great ever since. The real question rather is why France - and less so the netherlands - of all european countries are the ones who keep churning out these top 25 all time players seemingly every new generation
 
Moby said:
Yeah.
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They didn't, they were just more successful and their youth development model is obviously working much better than Spanish/English/Italian/German, if you take a look at how many France-born players participated in the World Cup. Half of Tunisia/Senegal/Cameroon national teams was born and raised in France. You can't say the same for any other country
 
They have an endless production line of excellent footballers. Enough to populate several countries thanks to the colonial links. Somehow or the other you'll get good teams from such a conveyor belt.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
France has a similar percentage of immigrant population as Spain (15%), and Spain does not have an NT full of children of immigrants. Spain was also the most succesful NT of the previous decade. I think that would indicate something other than immigration is at play.
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Well my reply addressed your question on how immigration may even be a factor if the countries themselves are not good at football. And the differentiator may well be the much better footballing infrastructure in France, no?

Obviously I am not claiming I have the explanation all worked out, it’s just a few thoughts to add to the discussion. There are certainly different ways to success. Just because Spain didn’t need its immigrants it doesn’t mean it can’t have a great impact for France.

Although I’ld have to say to me it seems France is now producing world class individual talent by the dozen like Brazil used to do whereas Spain more had like one golden generation guided by a clear idea for a playstyle refined by one of the greatest managers of our time. Being German I would even go as far as to say Germany may not have become world champions if Guardiola had not coached Bayern. It’s highly subjective but I personally feel he had a big influence, even though I don’t really like the guy and despise City.

Playing devils advocate, maybe if Spain integrated more immigrant kids into their system there would be more than just Ansu Fati to show for it? Just speculating here though, I don’t know anything about the Spanish football system. Or maybe they decide to play for the country of their parents more often?
 
giorno said:
As you said, the reason is Germany and England were big footballing countries long before France. The netherlands lack population size, so you can't expect the same generational continuity from them. Occasionally they'll have a very special generation, but it won't be continuous. France only really broke out as a big footballing country in the 80s, and have been great ever since. The real question rather is why France - and less so the netherlands - of all european countries are the ones who keep churning out these top 25 all time players seemingly every new generation
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- They put a giant effort in the 80s with overhauls of their footballing system, building Clairefontaine etc. etc.
- They have a large population so it was possible
- They didn't give up on investment in player development after initial success and till today still put enormous amount of time and money in it, also because many of their local teams are funded by player sales.
 
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