Watched the first half of the game yesterday. This guy couldn’t even hold the ball up for his team mates to push up the field. Everytime the ball came to him he lost it. He’s useless
Donkai Havertz | Arsenal Watch
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His head seems to be fecked.
Muppets here were calling him a generational talent when Chelsea signed him and how United were idiots to have missed out 
And the few usual posters coming up with how awesome he is and so much better than Pogba. He would be lucky to have a career like Pogba in PL and that's with many considering Pogba as flop and underwhelming.Muppets here were calling him a generational talent when Chelsea signed him and how United were idiots to have missed out
Not sure what he is good at.
Harsh. Maybe he has mental health issue?
Agree I can’t see he has any one exceptional attribute. But like dele alli in that regard.
Another very good player who I'm not sure as to what their best position is. They fit certain clubs and formations and once they're out of that they look absolute guff.
Haven't seen the game but if it is correct what you read in here (technical errors, giving possession away easily, etc.) that's independent from system and formation. Of course it doesn't help him that Tuchel was replaced but with him I often have the feeling that he can't get his shit together at times. If he'd be consistent, he'd be a top player no doubt but not this way. And he's not 20 anymore so it is about time he makes that step.
True, although I‘d say that goes for a lot of players (most) nowadays. But he‘s typically not a #9 (false or not) and much better off with a true striker before him. So playing him as a sole striker isn‘t doing him any favors in general. Maybe he‘d be a great and most importantly consistent one in 3-4 years time if managers insist to play him that way but it castrates him. It‘s the same with the German NT - he‘s much better involved if even some average strikerlike Füllkrug is up front as a true #9.
He looked much better in the league game playing deeper. I don't think 9 is even close to his best position.
More like an 8 or 10. Should play with a striker ahead of him.
We've been really poor also and all our forwards look awful.
More like an 8 or 10. Should play with a striker ahead of him.
We've been really poor also and all our forwards look awful.
What gives you that idea?
Have you tried using him as a SS or 10? Behind Aubamayang?
you didn‘t ask me but for example last year I think he immediately looked better once Lukaku came on (think he was coming back from injury) and had hopes that could develop into something interesting- it clearly didn‘t though obviously.
If the whole team is disjointed (lot of players left ergo lots of new players, lots of long termish injuries, new coach, bad result ergo loss of confidence- especially if played out of ideal position) strikers will always look especially bad - except some freaks of nature like Mbappe who can make things happen completely out on their own.
Does a 10/SS even have a position in the modern game with 3 midfielders and wide forwards?
Modern 10/SS is the false 9 and he can’t play it.
Modern 10/SS is the false 9 and he can’t play it.
I just don't think he suits this false 9 nonsense at all. From what i've seen of him he's best as a CAM and pretty much nobody is able to play with one in the PL anymore and make it work at the top level. I know Arsenal use Odegaard but he's a bit deeper and gets involved in the midfield much more, kind of like Modric. It's probably best trying to use Havertz like that.
I think it does as the more forward thinking CM. So Bruno for United. More creative freedom.
Wasn’t his CL winning display behind Werner?
It’s odd he keeps being used as the focal point when he’s had success at the club playing behind a CF
For us he was best as an 8 in a 4-3-3 or a 3-4-2-1. Tuchel's formation was pretty much ideal for him. Anyway, he's not an Özil or James type of player who can only play as a 10. Don't know why he's played as a striker that much but I agree that it is not his best position either. If you play him there, you have to put in the ground work to make it click and I don't have the feeling Potter is the kind of coach to do that.
But that position comes with more responsibility than the 10/SS ever used to.
Yeah, this is really the problem I don't think he works that well as a false 9 either, I also don't get why Potter is playing him still there, it doesn't look like his system actually suites a false 9. Considering that he is actually lining up in a 4231 and using an attacking midfielder, I'm not quite sure why he wouldn't use him in that position? What are the actual striker options at Chelsea right now?
True but I feel that is the role for Havertz.
He must take responsibility himself, granted, but his development has been mishandled by Chelsea I feel.
He’s been shunted here, there and everywhere which must be quite difficult for a young overseas player to deal with. Zero stability and no clear plan to integrate him.
Such an odd player. Clearly very talented but when you watch him it's almost impossible to know what position/formation would be suit him.
Whatever it is, I think it's fair to assume his time at Chelsea/in the PL is pretty much up.
Whatever it is, I think it's fair to assume his time at Chelsea/in the PL is pretty much up.
Getting him in at the time they had no plan for him other than he was highly rated. Feels a trend of Chelsea in recent years, like some sort of card collector ‘oh I’ll have that one too’ rather than having any particular plan for team building.
They already had Mount who had some similarities then, and just got Ziyech, all players who wanted to get a hold of the ball and play in certain spaces. Then they seemed to focus him on the striker position and he was starting to play better and they buy Lukaku on top of him for 100 million - the complete opposite style of player - which shows how little they seem to care about team building.
This season is partly showing how much Kanté carried them for years and him mixed with 5 at the back gave them a good defence that compensated for complete attacking inadequacy and bad balance in attack.
I think so. They played rather versatile but Werner mostly played on the left and made deep runs / create space for Kai. I wouldn't say Havertz can't play it per se, would be strange if lots of managers insist on playing him that way, but that clearly works better against some teams and also pretty much relies on his teammates. Werner had always his speed and workrate as a consistent threat. Lukaku at least his physique. He should profit a lot for his game if James and Chilwell would be both fit and playing because they (at least in TTs system) were constantly entering / threatening the box, creating space for others.
edit: can see him leaving Chelsea soonish though. With Nkunku it eventually works better or Havertz becomes basically obsolete. Munich would take him in a heartbeat (to play him as a false nine again
)From watching him I think his best position is either as a false 9, where the wide players are the primary goalscorers (i.e. Firmino when Mane and Salah were getting the goals) or up front as part of a front 2 where his partner is the finisher.
I think those positions would allow him to come deep but also doesn't give him the creative burden to create chances or control the game. The problem is Cheleas's attacking 'goal scorers' are Auba and Sterling and they don't have any creative midfielders.
I don't really rate him but him at Chelsea just seem a bad fit. Perhaps with Nkunku coming he's someone that can get the goals and complement Havertz but even then he might be more of a Havertz replacement.
I think those positions would allow him to come deep but also doesn't give him the creative burden to create chances or control the game. The problem is Cheleas's attacking 'goal scorers' are Auba and Sterling and they don't have any creative midfielders.
I don't really rate him but him at Chelsea just seem a bad fit. Perhaps with Nkunku coming he's someone that can get the goals and complement Havertz but even then he might be more of a Havertz replacement.
To be fair, he was wildly inconsistent like this under Tuchel and Lampard too but we gave him a pass because he was a 21 year old who moved to a new league during a pandemic, stuck indoors all the time, unable to settle properly, suffered from covid twice, one of them completely wiping him out etc. We trotted out a lot of excuses on his behalf thinking that eventually he'd settle and figure it out. He turns 24 in several months and has been here 3 seasons. Not sure Potter, who has been his coach for 5 minutes, can be blamed for his bad performances.
Given how much money Chelsea have spunked you'd think it might cross their minds at some point that an average, reliable 9 would be a great purchase, even if you ideally don't want to play them every game. Fullkrug is a great example, makes his presence felt, plays people in, decent finisher. I don't know who the right answer would be but I would have thought there's a Spanish/German/French striker out there that fits this bill. Thuram, Kolo Muani or Dembélé or someone, but they have to be clear that they may end up as backup if a star player comes in and performs. You'd think there'd be people out there who might accept that in exchange for money, Champions League and a chance of contributing to trophy wins.
What you don't want is a Ronaldo or perhaps even a Depay (I hope I'm not doing him a disservice there) who thinks they are much better than they really are and will sulk if they lose their place.
What you don't want is a Ronaldo or perhaps even a Depay (I hope I'm not doing him a disservice there) who thinks they are much better than they really are and will sulk if they lose their place.
While that is true, Potter at least should know about Kai's last three seasons then and eventually change the setup regarding him because it clearly isn't working consistently. Of course he's unfortunate that Broja is completely out of the equation and Auba not really the better alternative so in some regards it looks a bit like a sacrificial lamb to me.
As I said, didn't watch the game but the one before against City and there I though he did put in the effort and at least made those successful passes to his teammates to keep the attacks running.
He's inconsistent which is the entire problem with him. He sprinkles in a couple of good/decent performances with some games where he looks totally disinterested and invisible. If he was a solid 6 in every game, I'd just make my peace that he's just a bang average player, but what he does is gives you an 8/10 game and then drops a 2/10 game after that and he fluctuates like that all the time.
I don't really know Potter so I can't judge. If he's your classic EPL manager with emphasis on man management, passion and attitude and less about tactics etc, I'm sure it is a factor but as I said, I don't know him. That aside Havertz definitely lacks consistency and it is about time he develops it, no doubt.
He’s the opposite to that
Imho it's basically impossible to determine why though - at least for me personally. I can't imagine him being disinterested at times and sometimes enjoys playing. Against some setups/opponents it's likely more easier for him than against others. As a false nine (or striker in general) you're also the last in the chain so if the setup behind you doesn't really work well you will look a fool more often than not. But as we all know being the striker isn't the position he "learned" and excelled at so I think it just shows he isn't a natural sole striker type and that's in line with being very inconsistent. Since this tremendously affects ones confidence - and strikers strive on that - I can see that resulting in the most simple things not working anymore at times. It's not an excuse I just can imagine that being the case with him. Chelsea and in general his whole time in London never had any real stability so I do think that should be taken into account as well. Think he will go to Bayern Munich rather soonish if things don't tremendously change for him - and I don't think Chelsea as a club would miss him since that partnership never really sailed.
He's sort of the fall out guy because Chelsea have had such an atrocious record with strikers that he is having to play there, when it is clearly not his best position.
Werner, Lukaku, Aubamayeng, Broja. None of them were/are being trusted in that position so Havertz is having to fill in.
Don't think he's been given a consistent run as a CAM yet, he was also playing down the right of 3 man front line as well at the start I think.
Werner, Lukaku, Aubamayeng, Broja. None of them were/are being trusted in that position so Havertz is having to fill in.
Don't think he's been given a consistent run as a CAM yet, he was also playing down the right of 3 man front line as well at the start I think.
Probably the same people that want us paying 90m for Felix.Muppets here were calling him a generational talent when Chelsea signed him and how United were idiots to have missed out
I reckon I’m one of those on both counts. I wouldn’t think of them in terms of generational talents or worth £90m, but there’s something about both of them that seems classy, and there’s talent bubbling underneath that could explode into a really good player. I think that about Havertz sometimes at least, even though most of the the time he seems uninspiring, frustrating and out of place. I’d be pretty annoyed with him if I’m a Chelsea fan, but at the same time, I’d want United to go in for him. Seems like a contradiction but there you go!
Yeah those all are very fair points and way more nuanced than anything I had to offer, but I am a huge fan of his but I'm also extremely frustrated with him.
Though his top level isn’t as good, I think he’s got a lot in common with Pogba: inconsistent, nobody sure what his best position is. While Pogba has turned into a perma-crock, Havertz looks like he’s just lost interest.
Me too.
Just imagine: Chelsea keeping Giroud (and imho Werner) and they'd have a lot less problems to focus on. No goal scoring machines but at least somewhat accountable and consistent in what they did. Thought Sterling a sensible addition at the time though (although not in his best years anymore), the start was promising at least.
I understand it tbh, with the technique and skill they possess if you find the right manager to unlock their potential, everyone would ask why they were let go so cheap.
The other side is that he still doesn't perform and you're left with a Pogba situation all over again where you're still trying to unlock a player's true potential at 29.
generational talentReading back the first page of this thread has been hilarious