Transgender rights discussion

[fishfingers15]

I hope you won't read the wheel of time like ever.

 

[Bebe]

I hope you won't read the wheel of time like ever.

Amazon trying to make it palatable for "modern audiences" is going to be hilarious to watch.

 

[nickm]

OK, I've watched that video someone posted a couple of pages back that was almost 2 hours. Some silly stuff there, sure, even the guy admits some are a bit of a stretch, but in the second part of the video I think he focused on a few things which are probably very revealing of the way Rowling sees the world, and that's about how things tend to stay the same in the end.

Even after the heroes defeat the villain who was a wizard supremacist, the elves are still slaves, the non-human creatures are still discriminated against and the evil house slytherin goes on existing even when all their staff basically joined the nazi. People have certain characteristics that don't came from their personality, but also their social status, as if they were just a thing that is and not a result of social factors. Individual people progress and do heroic and amazing things but the system as a whole tends to not change at all.

She seems to be someone who doesn't like societal change and in the books characters are mocked for being too activist or suggesting something really needs to change. Interesting parallels with how she seems to ally with people connected with ultra-conservative groups.

It was actually an interesting watch (or listen, it's basically a podcast).

Seems a stretch, actually. Do you necessarily conclude that the author of the hunger games is a raging revolutionary because katniss wants to destroy the system, rather than being the moderate republican she appears to be in real life? Would Rowlings fantasies have been more or less satisfying for kids, if at the end she'd torched the familiar world she'd been painstakingly building for 7 books. Lord knows what this guy would conclude about the extreme revolutionary ideologies of George Lucas, the billionaire capitalist filmmaker, based on a reading of star wars, whose preoccupation again was mainly to tell a rollicking story for kids.

I don't know how you can draw any conclusions about Rowling's personal "desire for social stability" based on her writing a happy ending for kids, of the goodies winning, the baddies losing and everything going back to normal.

 

[maniak]

Seems a stretch, actually. Do you necessarily conclude that the author of the hunger games is a raging revolutionary because katniss wants to destroy the system, rather than being the moderate republican she appears to be in real life? Would Rowlings stories have been more or less satisfying for kids, if at the end she'd torched the familiar world she'd been painstakingly building for 7 books. Lord knows what this guy would make of George Lucas, the billionaire capitalist filmmaker, based on a reading of star wars, whose preoccupation again was mainly to tell a rollicking story for kids.

I haven't read or watched the hunger games, but if the author expresses political opinions and associates herself directly or indirectly with revolutionaries the same way rowling associates directly and indirectly with reactionaries and ultra-conservatives, then I don't think it would be a stretch to say she identifies with destroying the system.

I don't know any political opinion of george lucas. Rowling chose to enter the political arena, so it's only fair to analyze her work taking that into account. If she's an active political person, that will obviously permeate her work, most likely without her even being aware of that.

Many books for younger audiences identify an injustice and the heroes work to fix it. Rowling wouldn't be torching her world if the good guys found a way to free the slave elves or allow the centaurs to have basic rights.

 

[jeff_goldblum]

The argument that someone's creative output isn't reflective of their worldview may be true of some people, but it's categorical not true of Rowling. We're talking about an author who's latest novel is about a talented and successful woman who gets murdered after being accused of racism, ableism and transphobia by online trolls. Wonder where that idea came from.

 

[Frosty]

Seems a stretch, actually. Do you necessarily conclude that the author of the hunger games is a raging revolutionary because katniss wants to destroy the system, rather than being the moderate republican she appears to be in real life? Would Rowlings fantasies have been more or less satisfying for kids, if at the end she'd torched the familiar world she'd been painstakingly building for 7 books. Lord knows what this guy would conclude about the extreme revolutionary ideologies of George Lucas, the billionaire capitalist filmmaker, based on a reading of star wars, whose preoccupation again was mainly to tell a rollicking story for kids.

I don't know how you can draw any conclusions about Rowling's personal "desire for social stability" based on her writing a happy ending for kids, of the goodies winning, the baddies losing and everything going back to normal.

The Lion King is a conservative defence of hereditary monarchy, to be fair.

 

[Mike Smalling]

The argument that someone's creative output isn't reflective of their worldview may be true of some people, but it's categorical not true of Rowling. We're talking about an author who's latest novel is about a talented and successful woman who gets murdered after being accused of racism, ableism and transphobia by online trolls. Wonder where that idea came from.

Spot on. And don't forget that she is raging transphobe that just so happened to write a crime novel about a man who cross-dresses in order to kill women.

 

[Cascarino]

Lord knows what this guy would conclude about the extreme revolutionary ideologies of George Lucas, the billionaire capitalist filmmaker, based on a reading of star wars, whose preoccupation again was mainly to tell a rollicking story for kids.

Lucas has been pretty open about how Star Wars was conceived as a reaction to Nixon's presidency, and the Vietnam war.

 

[Gavinb33]

Since the elf is a discussion point, the free elf is one of the heroes of the book and wouldn't have been a hero of the book had he not been a free elf, surely that's the message to take away from that part of the book for people.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The argument that someone's creative output isn't reflective of their worldview may be true of some people, but it's categorical not true of Rowling. We're talking about an author who's latest novel is about a talented and successful woman who gets murdered after being accused of racism, ableism and transphobia by online trolls. Wonder where that idea came from.

That idea obviously comes from spending way too much time balls deep in the most emotionally overwrought culture war on social media. You’re putting the cart before the horse if you think this novel is anything other than a response to being relentlessly piled on on Twitter over the last several years.

 

[NotThatSoph]

The Lion King is a conservative defence of hereditary monarchy, to be fair.

The Lion King is a money making venture, but the stories it's inspired by are very old and written by people in favour of hereditary monarchy. I would be very surprised if Shakespeare was some radical anarchist, for instance (not to go all Simba = Hamlet, but the story is clearly in there.)

 

[The Corinthian]

The argument that someone's creative output isn't reflective of their worldview may be true of some people, but it's categorical not true of Rowling. We're talking about an author who's latest novel is about a talented and successful woman who gets murdered after being accused of racism, ableism and transphobia by online trolls. Wonder where that idea came from.

I haven’t read anything of hers since the last Harry Potter book so that may be right but to lay this claim to her based on the Harry Potter books is grossly inaccurate.

Point being there’s a clear chronological timeline of events here.

HP books > online back and forth > new books reflecting her online back and forth.

 

[Semper Fudge]

That idea obviously comes from spending way too much time balls deep in the most emotionally overwrought culture war on social media. You’re putting the cart before the horse if you think this novel is anything other than a response to being relentlessly piled on on Twitter over the last several years.

So you don't think she holds these views?

 

[jeff_goldblum]

That idea obviously comes from spending way too much time balls deep in the most emotionally overwrought culture war on social media. You’re putting the cart before the horse if you think this novel is anything other than a response to being relentlessly piled on on Twitter over the last several years.

I'm not sure what point you're making here. I'm saying that she has a habit of inserting her political views into her writing, that particular book was just an obvious example.

 

[jeff_goldblum]

I haven’t read anything of hers since the last Harry Potter book so that may be right but to lay this claim to her based on the Harry Potter books is grossly inaccurate.

Point being there’s a clear chronological timeline of events here.

HP books > online back and forth > new books reflecting her online back and forth.

Is your contention that she didn't (attempt to) include and address political and social themes in the Harry Potter books? I think she'd be the first to disagree with you there.

Beyond that, there are plenty of examples of viewpoints presented in the Harry Potter books which are mirrored in Rowling's commentary on events in the real world. An obvious one would be that Hermione's attempts to fight for elf emancipation are presented unflatteringly in an attempt to satirise "do-gooder" activism. Another would be her habit of describing unsympathetic female characters as "mannish" (her words).

Obviously now the genre she's working in now gives her more scope to shove her political shit in, but the main difference is that she's now a public figure who spends lots of her time spouting off on Twitter. People can therefore see the clear connections between her current obsessions and the content of her work "in real time" in a way which wasn't available 25 years ago.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm not sure what point you're making here. I'm saying that she has a habit of inserting her political views into her writing, that particular book was just an obvious example.

The point I’m making is that she got politicised (arguably radicalised) by the ongoing bun fight on Twitter. And this is now influencing here books. Which was not the case at all when she was first writing about wizards and elves and shit like that.

 

[nimic]

The point I’m making is that she got politicised (arguably radicalised) by the ongoing bun fight on Twitter. And this is now influencing here books. Which was not the case at all when she was first writing about wizards and elves and shit like that.

Okay but where is the evidence for that, though?

 

[nimic]

It's not like it's a new thing for fiction writers to insert their ideology into the story. Lewis didn't need a twitter war to make Narnia about Christianity. Crichton put his anti-science views at the heart of his books.

 

[Mockney]

I’m uneasy saying that people like Rowling and Linehan were radicalised ‘by Twitter’… as it removes their agency to just be terrible people.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I’m uneasy saying that people like Rowling and Linehan were radicalised ‘by Twitter’… as it removes their agency to just be terrible people.

A little from column A, a little from column B. There’s always agency when someone ends up being radicalised online. Which doesn’t remove the importance of the toxic cesspit that shapes them.

 

[nickm]

You lot are going to LOVE American Psycho... Clearly bret Easton Ellis should be locked up as a misogynist.

 

[Mike Smalling]

The point I’m making is that she got politicised (arguably radicalised) by the ongoing bun fight on Twitter. And this is now influencing here books. Which was not the case at all when she was first writing about wizards and elves and shit like that.

The Harry Potter books clearly have political themes and plots in the later editions, though. Especially the 5th through 7th. The main bad guy is motivated by his political ideology, there is the activist stuff about the house elves, the clear failings of the ministry and how they use the media to cover it up, etc. That's not really for discussion.

People in this thread are not arguing that she set out to write a series of children/young adult novels to influence a generation with her political beliefs. Rather it's that her beliefs naturally shine through to some extent, even in her early writing. But I do agree with you, that's it is quite likely that she has been motivated at least somewhat by all the Twitter nonsense to write later books like Troubled Blood, for example.

Also, the implied point that a piece of fiction can't be political because it has wizards and elves is just lazy. Can Animal Farm not be political because it has a bunch of talking animals?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So are we concluding that this middle aged woman maybe held some centrist/conservative political opinions when she wrote the Harry Potter books? The absolute horror. I’m still waiting to be convinced this means she would inevitably become a racist antisemite.

 

[nickm]

Lucas has been pretty open about how Star Wars was conceived as a reaction to Nixon's presidency, and the Vietnam war.

He took some inspiration for that but I'm not sure what conclusions you can draw about Lucas' politics from that.

This is just the same game Christian conservatives play with "liberal Hollywood" but from the other side, mining creative work to caricature its creators. You (in the broad sense) reject it there, you should reject it here too

 

[Pogue Mahone]

And I’m not even sure Linehan and Rowling really are terrible people. Just insanely stubborn and argumentative. To the point of self harm. Which raises the possibility that I’ll be denying the holocaust by the time this thread reaches 100 pages.

 

[nickm]

I never read chr

It's not like it's a new thing for fiction writers to insert their ideology into the story. Lewis didn't need a twitter war to make Narnia about Christianity. Crichton put his anti-science views at the heart of his books.

I never read chrichton as anti science. His books, and I've read most of them, are about the use science is put to by immoral or incautious people. Also , he really likes theme parks as a plot device. I'm not sure his thrillers would have been very interesting if they'd been about science going brilliantly.

Lewis was writing a book specifically to be a Christian allegory.

Rowling is currently writing what she knows, as authors do.

At the end of the day popular authors only have one responsibility, and that's to keep their readers turning pages. A lot gets engineered to that end. There is nothing duller than the author going on a little lecture about something they really care about.

 

[Tarrou]

I never read chrichton as anti science.

State of Fear is chocked full of anti-science about climate change

 

[Mike Smalling]

So are we concluding that this middle aged woman maybe held some centrist/conservative political opinions when she wrote the Harry Potter books? The absolute horror. I’m still waiting to be convinced this means she would inevitably become a racist antisemite.

I just think it's a bit funny that it led her to write a story, where freeing the slave race is seen as a pointless endeavor because the slaves don't really want freedom and will just turn to alcoholism if given freedom. The main point of all this, I guess, is that for a relatively young piece of fiction (the last book being published in 2007) is has aged quite poorly.

In turns of the antisemitism, you are inventing this allegation. At least in the context of this thread. No-one has called her that - just pointed out that there is some unfortunate combination of character design and traits in the movies.

 

[balaks]

I just think it's a bit funny that it led her to write a story, where freeing the slave race is seen as a pointless endeavor because the slaves don't really want freedom and will just turn to alcoholism if given freedom. The main point of all this, I guess, is that for a relatively young piece of fiction (the last book being published in 2007) is has aged quite poorly.

In turns of the antisemitism, you are inventing this allegation. At least in the context of this thread. No-one has called her that - just pointed out that there is some unfortunate combination of character design and traits in the movies.

The amount of pontificating over what is essentially a series of kid's fantasy books is quite astounding I have to say.

 

[calodo2003]

Why are adults arguing about children’s books?

 

[SilentWitness]

The amount of pontificating over what is essentially a series of kid's fantasy books is quite astounding I have to say.

I wouldn't say it is really when the books are up there as the best selling of all time. Most people in the modern world will have read or will at least be aware of Harry Potter and the books/movies and thus take influence from it and them.

 

[balaks]

I wouldn't say it is really when the books are up there as the best selling of all time. Most people in the modern world will have read or will at least be aware of Harry Potter and the books/movies and thus take influence from it and them.

It's still just a series of kid's book about a wizard and his mates. It's hardly the entire works of Shakespeare is it? I absolutely adored Roald Dahl's books but I'm not going to pontificate about the merits of Matilda's plight against her school headmistress or horrible family, or whether Willy Wonka was really a 'good' guy, because I'm not a child anymore and it's just a kid's book I happened to enjoy when I was young.

 

[NotThatSoph]

You lot are going to LOVE American Psycho... Clearly bret Easton Ellis should be locked up as a misogynist.

When you do stuff like this, continually, what is it you're trying to achieve? Is it just mindless trolling, are you deliberately trying to twist what people are saying into a caricature, or do you actually think "Ellis is a misogynist because Bateman is" is even in the same universe as what you're replying to?

 

[dumbo]

You lot are going to love Mein Kampf... Clearly you CAN never subscribe TO any VIEWS that YOU have previously expressed in a published format.

 

[NotThatSoph]

It's still just a series of kid's book about a wizard and his mates. It's hardly the entire works of Shakespeare is it? I absolutely adored Roald Dahl's books but I'm not going to pontificate about the merits of Matilda's plight against her school headmistress or horrible family because I'm not a child anymore and it's just a kid's book I happened to enjoy when I was young.

Plenty of academics find Dahl worth talking about.

 

[balaks]

Plenty of academics find Dahl worth talking about.

I however am not an academic who needs to look at these things - I am a grown adult who understands they are kid's books and as such are great when you are a kid but are not really worth thinking about in any great detail now I'm no longer a kid. Maybe it's time to move on?

 

[Mike Smalling]

The amount of pontificating over what is essentially a series of kid's fantasy books is quite astounding I have to say.

I don't even really disagree with this, and it's obvious that it never would have reached this level, if J.K. Rowling hadn't brought on so much negative attention to herself with her transphobia. That and some of her later writing has led people to double-click on the Harry Potter series. Still, it remains the best-selling book series of all time, so I don't think a bit of analysis of the themes and messages is totally out of order.

And if you don't find it interesting or important, why engage? Personally, I think it can be quite interesting to take a closer look at pop culture and challenge the media that is consumed en masse. Doesn't mean everyone has to.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's still just a series of kid's book about a wizard and his mates. It's hardly the entire works of Shakespeare is it? I absolutely adored Roald Dahl's books but I'm not going to pontificate about the merits of Matilda's plight against her school headmistress or horrible family, or whether Willy Wonka was really a 'good' guy, because I'm not a child anymore and it's just a kid's book I happened to enjoy when I was young.

We all know why the text of Harry Potter books are being scoured for ammunition that can be used to criticise the author’s politics in a way that doesn’t happen with, say, the Twilight or Percy Jackson novels. I mean, that’s obvious, right?

 

[balaks]

I don't even really disagree with this, and it's obvious that it never would have reached this level, if J.K. Rowling hadn't brought on so much negative attention to herself with her transphobia. That and some of her later writing has led people to double-click on the Harry Potter series. Still, it remains the best-selling book series of all time, so I don't think a bit of analysis of the themes and messages is totally out of order.

And if you don't find it interesting or important, why engage? Personally, I think it can be quite interesting to take a closer look at pop culture and challenge the media that is consumed en masse. Doesn't mean everyone has to.

Oh christ Im not engaging in Harry Potter - I havent even read the books and I could barely sit through about half of the first film, they are utterly shite if you ask me. I just find it extremely difficult to understand why grown men and women think these kid's books are so important that they deserve to be pontificated about over and over. Just because something is very popular does not equate to it being any good, or really being worth anybody's time. I get it that as a kid it's probably an engaging set of books but most of us arent kids anymore (more's the pity). It just appears a bit sad to me. Also, as for that video that somebody shared in the past few pages with a grown man talking trying to pick apart the plot of a bunch of kid's books for an hour and a half - fecking hell really?

 

[nickm]

When you do stuff like this, continually, what is it you're trying to achieve? Is it just mindless trolling, are you deliberately trying to twist what people are saying into a caricature, or do you actually think "Ellis is a misogynist because Bateman is" is even in the same universe as what you're replying to?

Think you missed my point. Determining an author's politics from the novels they write, is a mugs game. Some people are mining Harry potter for the smallest inferences to beat her up over. It's silly. It's as silly as inferring anything about Brett Easton Ellis political views from American paycho.