Transgender rights discussion

maniak

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I get that. She made the mistake of sharing an unpopular opinion about sex vs gender on Twitter. And instead of backing off when she realised she’d poked a hornet’s nest, she doubled down, dug her heels in and went full tilt into the culture war. Hence we are where we are. With floor tiles in scenes in movies of her books being used as evidence that she’s antisemitic and 90 minute podcasts on her problematic political views in a children’s novel about wizards and goblins.
You don't have to be racist or antisemitic or homophobic to sometimes fall into the trap of using a trope associated with these things. When you do, it's fair other people point it out. Especially so if you use those tropes in your real life. I don't understand why is it so hard for you to believe that a person who commonly uses anti-trans tropes is capable of using other tropes in her writings. Maybe it's not on purpose, but it can tell us something about her mindset. This criticism is miles away from calling her a raging antisemite.

The books/films have wizards and goblins but, as an example, she chose to include slavery in it, she chose to mock characters who stood up for the slaves, she chose to write characters who normally represent goodness and common sense like hagrid justifying slavery. She didn't have to do it, but she included all this in her children’s novel about wizards and goblins, as you call it. So why is it unfair to criticize her for it? I could understand if people were looking for crazy subliminal messages, but this stuff is very clear and very direct.
 

Champ

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I don't think that any of this was intentional. I think that she is mostly unaware of her own biases to the point that it affects her writing. Adult readers don't even have to read between the lines. She probably didn't even notice how a character being fat or ugly practically always is shorthand for them being morally corrupt or downright evil or how most of her evil female characters have masculine features. I don't know much about the anti-semitic stuff, but my guess is that this was unintentional too.
Good points, there may well be some unconscious biased thoughts being written.
However making the Dursley dad and son obese/overweight was more of a showing that they were gluttonous and greedy rather than an overweight person is evil for example.

Also there seems to be a big divide on HP women characters, some believe a lot of them are feminist heroines who show the strong powerful independent side of women, others deem them to be.

People can delve even deeper if they wanted into the series regarding pure Born's and pure blood, and make a case for it being a view upon racial equality, but I highly doubt it was ever perceived to be that way by Rowling judging by the almost jovial nature of the first two books.
 

jeff_goldblum

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The point I’m making is that she got politicised (arguably radicalised) by the ongoing bun fight on Twitter. And this is now influencing here books. Which was not the case at all when she was first writing about wizards and elves and shit like that.
This can be disproven pretty quickly, and has been in the last couple of pages of the thread. There are loads of examples of Rowling's politics coming through in Harry Potter, often by her own admission.

The argument of "they're kids books, they're about wizards and elves, who cares" falls down because most of them are aimed at YA audiences and Rowling self-admittedly has a crack at making points about things like racism, fascism, slavery, discrimination, politics, corruption in the media etc. It's certainly nothing new for people to be interested in the viewpoints espoused in the books young people read, and it's nothing new that people engage critically with the themes of popular and influential pieces of media (particularly ones which were ubiquitous during their own childhoods). That goes double for instances where the creator of that media goes on to become a significant political activist in their own right. I think a mistake you keep making is that you're attributing the familiarity of some of her critics with the minutiae of Harry Potter to obsessive nitpicking born out of hatred, when in reality the reason her critics know so much about Harry Potter is that they're largely people in their 20s and 30s who grew up on it and are (or were) fans when they were kids.

Rowling's issue is that she wanted it both ways with Harry Potter. She wanted credit for addressing political and social issues in the books but didn't want the scrutiny that comes with that. She can't seem to grasp that if you include moral themes in your writing, you can't decide which bits of your books are meant to be a moral lesson and which aren't.

For example, she was rightly praised for setting up lycanthropy in the Harry Potter world to be an analogy for HIV and highlighting the societal stigma of being HIV-positive in a way that was relatable to younger audiences. But if you're going to build up that analogy and talk about it in interviews, you have to accept that people are going to be a bit confused if you later introduce a werewolf antagonist whose MO is, basically, going around intentionally giving HIV to children (which is almost a perfect combination of two classic homophobic tropes - spreading disease and preying on children).

Now, I personally think a lot of this stuff (including that example) comes from a combination of her limitations as a writer/"thinker", ignorance of the issues she's trying to address and a big dollop of arrogance, rather than it being an example of outright bigotry. There is a bunch of stuff though which absolutely reflects some pretty ugly/weird/regressive attitudes, and her habit of getting hyperdefensive when called out on anything (going back to way before twitter), never mind how minor, makes it's difficult to parse out the two. And then of course, people who have seen her going off it about trans people on twitter are less willing to give her the benefit of the doubt on stuff that they might have done beforehand.

Edit: also, providing Twilight and Percy Jackson as examples of works that aren't scrutinised for their themes is funny, because Twilight sparked a massive debate online about the unhealthy relationship dynamic it was romanticising, and Percy Jackson is often praised for it's portrayal of neurodivergent characters. Obviously it probably doesn't cross into 'real news' like the Rowling stuff because neither series is as famous or popular as Harry Potter, and the authors of those works haven't leveraged their fame to push controversial beliefs in the way Rowling has (despite Meyer holding quite a few)!
 
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Scandi Red

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Good points, there may well be some unconscious biased thoughts being written.
However making the Dursley dad and son obese/overweight was more of a showing that they were gluttonous and greedy rather than an overweight person is evil for example.

Also there seems to be a big divide on HP women characters, some believe a lot of them are feminist heroines who show the strong powerful independent side of women, others deem them to be.

People can delve even deeper if they wanted into the series regarding pure Born's and pure blood, and make a case for it being a view upon racial equality, but I highly doubt it was ever perceived to be that way by Rowling judging by the almost jovial nature of the first two books.

I would think that the main point about the Dursleys is that they are selfish assholes. The mother isn't better than the other two, but she is not fat for some reason. She is however described as ugly of course. Ultimately I find it funny that there are perhaps 30 named characters who are portrayed as unambiguously bad and maybe 90% of them are ugly or fat(or both). And Rowling is particularly ruthless about the looks of the female characters who fall on the wrong side of good vs evil.

I actually think book Hermione is a decent feminist icon. Definitely better than film Hermione who is without any flaws.

She already brought up the pure blood stuff in the second book and made kind of a big deal about it, though.
 
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Scandi Red

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Rowling's issue is that she wanted it both ways with Harry Potter. She wanted credit for addressing political and social issues in the books but didn't want the scrutiny that comes with that. She can't seem to grasp that if you include moral themes in your writing, you can't decide which bits of your books are meant to be a moral lesson and which aren't.
Well put!
 

Mike Smalling

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People can delve even deeper if they wanted into the series regarding pure Born's and pure blood, and make a case for it being a view upon racial equality, but I highly doubt it was ever perceived to be that way by Rowling judging by the almost jovial nature of the first two books.
Really? It comes complete with it's own highly offensive slur ('mudblood'), and the bad guys are intent on making sure that non-pureblood wizards are excluded from their society and not given equal rights. Basically, they define the worth of a person based on their heritage, not their character or accomplishments. It seems an obvious allegory for racism to me, and I'm sure it's intended like that.

This is also something that, in my opinion, works fairly well in the series. All of the good guys are on the right side of the issue, and the bad guys are on the wrong side of the issue.
 

Pogue Mahone

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This can be disproven pretty quickly, and has been in the last couple of pages of the thread. There are loads of examples of Rowling's politics coming through in Harry Potter, often by her own admission.

The argument of "they're kids books, they're about wizards and elves, who cares" falls down because most of them are aimed at YA audiences and Rowling self-admittedly has a crack at making points about things like racism, fascism, slavery, discrimination, politics, corruption in the media etc. It's certainly nothing new for people to be interested in the viewpoints espoused in the books young people read, and it's nothing new that people engage critically with the themes of popular and influential pieces of media (particularly ones which were ubiquitous during their own childhoods). That goes double for instances where the creator of that media goes on to become a significant political activist in their own right. I think a mistake you keep making is that you're attributing the familiarity of some of her critics with the minutiae of Harry Potter to obsessive nitpicking born out of hatred, when in reality the reason her critics know so much about Harry Potter is that they're largely people in their 20s and 30s who grew up on it and are (or were) fans when they were kids.

Rowling's issue is that she wanted it both ways with Harry Potter. She wanted credit for addressing political and social issues in the books but didn't want the scrutiny that comes with that. She can't seem to grasp that if you include moral themes in your writing, you can't decide which bits of your books are meant to be a moral lesson and which aren't.

For example, she was rightly praised for setting up lycanthropy in the Harry Potter world to be an analogy for HIV and highlighting the societal stigma of being HIV-positive in a way that was relatable to younger audiences. But if you're going to build up that analogy and talk about it in interviews, you have to accept that people are going to be a bit confused if you later introduce a werewolf antagonist whose MO is, basically, going around intentionally giving HIV to children (which is almost a perfect combination of two classic homophobic tropes - spreading disease and preying on children).

Now, I personally think a lot of this stuff (including that example) comes from a combination of her limitations as a writer/"thinker", ignorance of the issues she's trying to address and a big dollop of arrogance, rather than it being an example of outright bigotry. There is a bunch of stuff though which absolutely reflects some pretty ugly/weird/regressive attitudes, and her habit of getting hyperdefensive when called out on anything (going back to way before twitter), never mind how minor, makes it's difficult to parse out the two. And then of course, people who have seen her going off it about trans people on twitter are less willing to give her the benefit of the doubt on stuff that they might have done beforehand.

Edit: also, providing Twilight and Percy Jackson as examples of works that aren't scrutinised for their themes is funny, because Twilight sparked a massive debate online about the unhealthy relationship dynamic it was romanticising, and Percy Jackson is often praised for it's portrayal of neurodivergent characters. Obviously it probably doesn't cross into 'real news' like the Rowling stuff because neither series is as famous or popular as Harry Potter, and the authors of those works haven't leveraged their fame to push controversial beliefs in the way Rowling has (despite Meyer holding quite a few)!
That’s an excellent post and (unusually for me!) I can’t find anything in there to argue with. Methinks it’s time to take a break from this thread…
 

Champ

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Really? It comes complete with it's own highly offensive slur ('mudblood'), and the bad guys are intent on making sure that non-pureblood wizards are excluded from their society and not given equal rights. Basically, they define the worth of a person based on their heritage, not their character or accomplishments. It seems an obvious allegory for racism to me, and I'm sure it's intended like that.

This is also something that, in my opinion, works fairly well in the series. All of the good guys are on the right side of the issue, and the bad guys are on the wrong side of the issue.
Your possibly correct,

I perceive it to be no more than a playground insult from a kid which she then took and ran to be a allegory for racism.
Let's not kid ourselves, in the first few books the main culprit using this term is a kid, this changed later on in the series and more adult characters used the term, this suggests to me it wasn't intended as being anything too deep.
 

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Your possibly correct,

I perceive it to be no more than a playground insult from a kid which she then took and ran to be a allegory for racism.
Let's not kid ourselves, in the first few books the main culprit using this term is a kid, this changed later on in the series and more adult characters used the term, this suggests to me it wasn't intended as being anything too deep.
You perceived wrong then. It’s absolutely not a playground insult and people are shocked at Malfoy using it. The connection to Voldemort and his followers is immediately explained I think.
 

Champ

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You perceived wrong then. It’s absolutely not a playground insult and people are shocked at Malfoy using it. The connection to Voldemort and his followers is immediately explained I think.
Fair enough.
I just felt it was only used by Malfoy in the first book, I must have it wrong, it's been a while since I read the books.
 

Mike Smalling

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Your possibly correct,

I perceive it to be no more than a playground insult from a kid which she then took and ran to be a allegory for racism.
Let's not kid ourselves, in the first few books the main culprit using this term is a kid, this changed later on in the series and more adult characters used the term, this suggests to me it wasn't intended as being anything too deep.
You are not wrong in that the first two books are very much targeted towards kids, so they are lighter on the serious stuff. However, after the insult is introduced, the three main characters do have a sitdown with one of the adults that explains the gravity of it. I don't think that would have been included if the insult was similar to smellypants or something. Whether or not she knew it would become so integral to the remaining serious is another matter.
 

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A lot of news at the moment surrounding the Scottish Government's latest reforms and I'd be interested to hear some of your thoughts about it? Is the removal of a medical diagnosis a good or bad thing in particular?
 

Jippy

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A lot of news at the moment surrounding the Scottish Government's latest reforms and I'd be interested to hear some of your thoughts about it? Is the removal of a medical diagnosis a good or bad thing in particular?
I'm interested in that too. I've been pretty busy with various things at work and haven't had chance to read up extensively on the policy- the pros, safeguards etc...
 

jeff_goldblum

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A similar policy has been in place in Ireland since 2015 with no issue and very little pushback prior to trans rights becoming a culture war-esque issue in the last couple of years.

Going back a few years before the bigotry and fearmongering hit fever pitch, it was a stated policy goal of a Tory Prime Minister (May).
 

jojojo

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A lot of news at the moment surrounding the Scottish Government's latest reforms and I'd be interested to hear some of your thoughts about it? Is the removal of a medical diagnosis a good or bad thing in particular?
For trans women it can only be a good thing. It offers simplicity and respect.

I do still have questions about adolescents taking such a step as it's a time when many people go through crises - about their sexuality, their appearance and even their disparate skills, interests and personalities. But then I'd like to see support for them anyway, and I'm not sure that making a medical hurdle for them to jump is the same as support.

Is there potential for abuse of such a rule? For sure. The potential for abuse is high in areas where there may be an advantage to being defined as a woman - whether that's in something like competitive sport or access to a female only space. A big issue numerically? I doubt it. But it still has to be taken seriously in those limited and specific situations.

Scotland say they're doing that already - if that's true I don't see a problem. Provided it doesn't create a string of cynical or frivolous lawsuits or ultimately end up forcing people to reveal deeply personal or medical information in a more public way.
 

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The potential for abuse is high in areas where there may be an advantage to being defined as a woman - whether that's in something like competitive sport or access to a female only space. A big issue numerically? I doubt it. But it still has to be taken seriously in those limited and specific situations.
as someone quite succinctly put it to the newsreader on sky news: 'when was the last time you had to show your birth certificate when you went to the toilet?'
 

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as someone quite succinctly put it to the newsreader on sky news: 'when was the last time you had to show your birth certificate when you went to the toilet?'
I'm not even sure when was the last time I saw a gender-specific bathroom outside of the gym or other locker-room situations. It's all unisex otherwise.

I guess the airport too, come to think of it.
 

Pogue Mahone

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as someone quite succinctly put it to the newsreader on sky news: 'when was the last time you had to show your birth certificate when you went to the toilet?'
I'm not even sure when was the last time I saw a gender-specific bathroom outside of the gym or other locker-room situations. It's all unisex otherwise.

I guess the airport too, come to think of it.
I doubt @jojojo is alluding to toilets. The whole sport thing is very complex (and has a mega thread already dedicated to it) but the other issues to consider would be hostels for the homeless, prisons, women’s refuge accommodation etc Basically any kind of residential accommodation which might be segregated by gender. All the more tricky when you consider how vulnerable some of the clients may be.
 

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I doubt @jojojo is alluding to toilets. The whole sport thing is very complex (and has a mega thread already dedicated to it) but the other issues to consider would be hostels for the homeless, prisons, women’s refuge accommodation etc Basically any kind of residential accommodation which might be segregated by gender. All the more tricky when you consider how vulnerable some of the clients may be.
not suggesting that jojojo is a terf, but bathrooms are the number 1 space that terfs bring up when this is discussed, that and changing rooms.

the likelihood of a man applying for a false GRC, living as a different gender for 3 months and needing to prove that, obtaining a lawyer to go through the legal process, risk an additional charge of falsely applying for a GRC, just to gain access to a niche women's space like those you mention, instead of just - walking into a women's bathroom, or attacking a woman in a park or street, or attacking someone already in their life (which is unfortunately the vast majority of cases) - is basically zero. this can be evidenced by the fact there have been exactly 0 cases in any of the 14 countries that have self-id in place over numerous years.

it's fear mongering nonsense, without any data to support it, and the tories are only involved because a culture war is all they have left to desperately cling to power. shame on them, and shame on labour for not opposing it.
 
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jeff_goldblum

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I doubt @jojojo is alluding to toilets. The whole sport thing is very complex (and has a mega thread already dedicated to it) but the other issues to consider would be hostels for the homeless, prisons, women’s refuge accommodation etc Basically any kind of residential accommodation which might be segregated by gender. All the more tricky when you consider how vulnerable some of the clients may be.
Ireland's had this law for 7 years, how many cases have there been in that time where a man has used self-ID to gain access to one of these spaces and harm women?
 

Pogue Mahone

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Ireland's had this law for 7 years, how many cases have there been in that time where a man has used self-ID to gain access to one of these spaces and harm women?
I have absolutely no idea. And I’m not saying it’s an insurmountable obstacle. Just something which needs to be considered. More so than toilets anyway.
 

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as someone quite succinctly put it to the newsreader on sky news: 'when was the last time you had to show your birth certificate when you went to the toilet?'
As @Pogue Mahone suggested, I'm not really thinking about loos - predators don't care about signs on doors or legal recognition, so I don't see that as a significant issue.

It's the issues around places like women's refuges and women's prisons that do have to be addressed. But the thing is, those situations are the outliers - and they always have to address issues about unsuitable placements, so I'm assuming the professionals involved have the knowledge and sensitivity to do it. I'm hoping they also have the resources. The Scottish government say they've already put those in place - so I'm assuming they're right.
 

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As @Pogue Mahone suggested, I'm not really thinking about loos - predators don't care about signs on doors or legal recognition, so I don't see that as a significant issue.

It's the issues around places like women's refuges and women's prisons that do have to be addressed. But the thing is, those situations are the outliers - and they always have to address issues about unsuitable placements, so I'm assuming the professionals involved have the knowledge and sensitivity to do it. I'm hoping they also have the resources. The Scottish government say they've already put those in place - so I'm assuming they're right.
When it comes to shelters/refuges it seems like the best option would be to develop a process for transwomen and have the state put them up anonymously in a hotel. Not the best solution as far as being inclusive goes but this involves a very vulnerable group that needs protecting from the men who want to harm them and the possibility of an abusive male being unscrupulous in gaining access should be considered.

For prisons I'm sure they can apply a rigorous screening process to ensure someone isn't pretending to avoid doing time in a men's correctional facility.
 

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For trans women it can only be a good thing. It offers simplicity and respect.

I do still have questions about adolescents taking such a step as it's a time when many people go through crises - about their sexuality, their appearance and even their disparate skills, interests and personalities. But then I'd like to see support for them anyway, and I'm not sure that making a medical hurdle for them to jump is the same as support.

Is there potential for abuse of such a rule? For sure. The potential for abuse is high in areas where there may be an advantage to being defined as a woman - whether that's in something like competitive sport or access to a female only space. A big issue numerically? I doubt it. But it still has to be taken seriously in those limited and specific situations.

Scotland say they're doing that already - if that's true I don't see a problem. Provided it doesn't create a string of cynical or frivolous lawsuits or ultimately end up forcing people to reveal deeply personal or medical information in a more public way.
This was one thing I wasn't clear about in the Scottish bill- whether 16 year olds wanting to change their gender identity would be required to talk to specialists about the process, the challenges it would entail etc before they could proceed? Not medical tests, but more having proper discussions to ensure it's right for them.

Age restrictions are somewhat random, eg you're not trusted to get a tattoo until you're 18, but you can change gender at 16.
 

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This was one thing I wasn't clear about in the Scottish bill- whether 16 year olds wanting to change their gender identity would be required to talk to specialists about the process, the challenges it would entail etc before they could proceed? Not medical tests, but more having proper discussions to ensure it's right for them.

Age restrictions are somewhat random, eg you're not trusted to get a tattoo until you're 18, but you can change gender at 16.
Trans health care is broken as it is, so it does need changing. If a state requires a doctor's sign off (as the UK does) it is unconscionable that the waiting times for appointments are measured in years.

Abigail Thorn did a deep dive into the problems in a 90 minute video for Philosophy Tube, using her own experiences as a barometer. It was that long as there is so much to unpack and critique sadly.
 

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This was one thing I wasn't clear about in the Scottish bill- whether 16 year olds wanting to change their gender identity would be required to talk to specialists about the process, the challenges it would entail etc before they could proceed? Not medical tests, but more having proper discussions to ensure it's right for them.

Age restrictions are somewhat random, eg you're not trusted to get a tattoo until you're 18, but you can change gender at 16.
As far as I can see you still need to discuss your transition with experts and it'll be determined that it's the right call? You just don't need to start the process off with a doctor who won't necessarily have expertise on the subject, which can cause lots of delays.

That's what I hope is the case, anyway. I think it is?
 

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Thankfully this was killed in committee, but imagine waking up one day thinking that it would be a swell idea to monetarily harm trans people for being themselves…

 

stepic

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As @Pogue Mahone suggested, I'm not really thinking about loos - predators don't care about signs on doors or legal recognition, so I don't see that as a significant issue.

It's the issues around places like women's refuges and women's prisons that do have to be addressed. But the thing is, those situations are the outliers - and they always have to address issues about unsuitable placements, so I'm assuming the professionals involved have the knowledge and sensitivity to do it. I'm hoping they also have the resources. The Scottish government say they've already put those in place - so I'm assuming they're right.
agreed on the first point.

the thing is that the proposed GRC bill blocked by the UK doesn't have anything to do with single sex spaces, access to those spaces is governed by the Equality Act. The GRC basically just effects marriage and death. it was a fairly basic bill which is only controversial because - culture war.
 

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Thankfully this was killed in committee, but imagine waking up one day thinking that it would be a swell idea to monetarily harm trans people for being themselves…

He should be fined for that hair. Appalling.
 

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As far as I can see you still need to discuss your transition with experts and it'll be determined that it's the right call? You just don't need to start the process off with a doctor who won't necessarily have expertise on the subject, which can cause lots of delays.

That's what I hope is the case, anyway. I think it is?
Sorry, I missed this.

Thanks, that all sounds pretty sensible.