Very little from Bayern in the last 20 minutes in terms of cohesive play. Just seemed a case of getting all the attackers on and hope someone could hit one in from 25 yards.
Is Mane back anytime soon?
Is Mane back anytime soon?
German Football 22/23 | 2. Bundesliga returns | Hamburg vs Schalke 20:30 |
- Thread starter do.ob
- Start date
I mean it's not like Hertha need the money, but imagine collecting a fee from DFB for him instead of waiting until they hire a replacement and then sacking the guy so you have to pay him off.
symbolic picture:
7
symbolic picture:
The WC killed our season. Many key players injured. The team is playing without confidence and the attacking flow before the world cup it's totally gone.
Bayern should have killed that game in the first half. Had so much control
Hertha are such a shambles 
What's next? Will they promote Dufner from within? Or will they hire Sven Mislintat and have another predestined falling out in 10 months? Magath to take over as manager-manager?
What's next? Will they promote Dufner from within? Or will they hire Sven Mislintat and have another predestined falling out in 10 months? Magath to take over as manager-manager?
Rangnick throwing his hat in the ring in 3..2..1..
Bayern look really normal there is nothing special there at the moment, no excitement there. Kimmich is the only player there who looks his normal self.
Read Horst Heldt is in contention. Would be comical.Hertha are such a shambles
What's next? Will they promote Dufner from within? Or will they hire Sven Mislintat and have another predestined falling out in 10 months? Magath to take over as manager-manager?
Rangnick throwing his hat in the ring in 3..2..1..
I'd rather see Dufner get sacked as well considering how "succesful" he has been...there are a lot of Bobic's men in key positions at Hertha right now, I wonder how that is going to play out.Hertha are such a shambles
What's next? Will they promote Dufner from within? Or will they hire Sven Mislintat and have another predestined falling out in 10 months? Magath to take over as manager-manager?
Rangnick throwing his hat in the ring in 3..2..1..
Will be interesting to see what the official reason for this is...there are rumors that Bobic and Hertha's president hadn't been seeing eye to eye for quite some time now...and there was a meeting with Hertha's new investor group today after the game.
Anyway the timing for this is really weird, 3 days before the transfer window closes.
This went downhill pretty quickly, just 10 days ago they seemed to be in a decent position to avoid relegation and now they're 17th after scoring 1:10 goals this week and their leader is gone...
Dufner was brought in with Bobic, wan't he, and was responsible for squad planning - which seems to be the main problem zone of Bobic's reign. Though it's hard to judge squad planning over a couple of season following a period of silly, lopsided investment and misguided ambition. And the president is a fan club guy, it's easy to see how him having authority on paper over a seasoned and confident professional like Bobic might prove difficult in day to day operations. Who are the new investors?
Transfermarkt shows Hertha having a clear transfer surplus under Bobic, so it seems the process was clearing out the squad before investing in it? And yes, the timing is bizarre.
And what about Schwarz now? Funny thing is, it seemed to me the vibe among Hertha fans was good, early in the season. I was in the stadium once (against BVB) and in Hertha pubs a few times for a match and many expressed happiness with the improvement of play on the pitch, if not with results. Not sure what has happened in the recent couple of months.
Yeah, Bobic basically tried to sell any player that had value and did an okay job with that...Preetz and friends seemed to have handed out some crazy wages so Bobic would often send out players on load for really cheap conditions, as long as it would slightly reduce the wages. The problem was that the vast majority of his signings failed..it's not easy when you don't have a lot of money to spend but considering his reputation in Frankfurt it was a massive disappointment.
So now the team is a lot cheaper but barely has any quality players left which might lead to a very costly relegation.
The new investors are called 777 Partners who have recently built an interesting network of clubs all over the world, including FC Sevilla, Vasco Da Gama, Standard Liege and Genua CFC. It's hard to tell at this point but they seem much more reliable than Windhorst.
Your impression was pretty accurate, Hertha played reasonably well during those first few months, certainly better than last season. There was a feeling that they were better than what the Bundesliga table showed. But those last few negative results seem to have changed the narrative, now there's criticism that Schwarz doesn't do enough to counter the negative momentum. He's probably not gonna survive for long if the losses keep coming...bit of a shame cause he seems decent, just has to work with a flawed squad.
Hertha are simply fecked. And they already were in that state long before Bobic took over.
When you're already in a terrible state to begin with and then task your DoF to extract most of the value that's left in the squad, then you shouldn't be surprised if he struggles to build a competitive team. Because even if there are bargains out there, who you could actually afford, they most likely won't be very eager to join the soul crushing sinking ship that is your club.
I guess the two transfers that had a high enough volume to potentially draw criticism were Serdar (€8m) and Richter (€7m).
I'm not really into masochism, so I can't say that much about their actual performance levels though.
On the other side I also read that Bobic pissed off some people internally and got rid of quite some staff:
On one hand I could ask whether anyone that had their hand in steering Hertha to this point really has any "right" to remain at the club.
On the other hand I could ask whether Bobic was ripping apart the soul of the club to install his own men.
When you're already in a terrible state to begin with and then task your DoF to extract most of the value that's left in the squad, then you shouldn't be surprised if he struggles to build a competitive team. Because even if there are bargains out there, who you could actually afford, they most likely won't be very eager to join the soul crushing sinking ship that is your club.
I guess the two transfers that had a high enough volume to potentially draw criticism were Serdar (€8m) and Richter (€7m).
I'm not really into masochism, so I can't say that much about their actual performance levels though.
On the other side I also read that Bobic pissed off some people internally and got rid of quite some staff:
On one hand I could ask whether anyone that had their hand in steering Hertha to this point really has any "right" to remain at the club.
On the other hand I could ask whether Bobic was ripping apart the soul of the club to install his own men.
Last edited:
Well, the soul of the club has been reinserted. Zecke Neuendorf to take over as DoF.
That's a good point and often forgotten in such discussions about chaotic clubs.
Which is exactly what he did very successfully in Frankfurt as well, building a completely new staff around the team. There it also took time, but the difference is that they never were in deep shit like Hertha during his time there. It was Bruchhagen who stabilized Frankfurt and then Bobic could take a stable but boring midtable team to the next level.
If he tried to replicate that he might have tried to do the second step before the first.
It's simply Hertha's turn to get relegated. Right now they are exactly where they belong. And I think accepting that reality, separating themselves from results-driven short term thinking, planning with one eye on the second division, is the only kind of stability they can achieve.
Unless of course their potential investor promises to give them fresh money to burn, that might be incentive enough to pull all the bullshit and speculative levers to somehow barely stay up and rebuild next summer.
And yet there were several transfers that can be heavily criticized...not just the more expensive ones because no matter how much Serdar and Richter have cost, they at least offer some kind of value to the club. The same can't be said for guys like Bjorkan or Lee who were clearly not good enough for the Bundesliga and pretty much given away for free not even a year after signing them...or someone like Kelian Nsona who had agreed to join on a free transfer last summer and yet Hertha felt it would make sense to spend 500k on him so he could join Hertha in January 22 and recover from a crucial ligament injury in Berlin. Well here we are one year later and he still hasn't been able to play a single game. ^^
And the whole idea of loaning out expensive players hoping that they'd end up being bought never worked out either. Even if they all have flaws, Hertha would have certainly found the likes of Alderete, Piatek, Torunarigha, Ascacibar or Lukebakio (in 21/22) useful at some point during the season.You really have to wonder what kind of contracts Preetz gave those players if Hertha is so hellbent on getting rid of them.
Anyway, kicker now claims that Hertha is going to buy "at least 2 new players" in the next three days. Not sure why there's money available all of a sudden and who is going to decide which players to sign but maybe they get lucky for once...
The funny thing is how things got worse when they stopped the short term thinking and developed a vision. I'm referring to the first time they sacked Dardai because the board thought they would need a better style of play to evolve as a club. At the time they played ugly but were grinding out results all the time to be a stable lower midtable team.It's simply Hertha's turn to get relegated. Right now they are exactly where they belong. And I think accepting that reality, separating themselves from results-driven short term thinking, planning with one eye on the second division, is the only kind of stability they can achieve.
Unless of course their potential investor promises to give them fresh money to burn, that might be incentive enough to pull all the bullshit and speculative levers to somehow barely stay up and rebuild next summer.
What you're describing kind of supports my point, because these are precisely the high risk transfers driven by a lack of funding I was talking about. Björkan and Lee were examples of taking a punt on players from obscure leagues in the hopes that they may adapt to Bundesliga's level. With Nsona something unforeseen must have gone terribly wrong with his recovery, I looked at an article from the time he was signed and it mentioned that he was expected to return later in the season. That's either bad luck or an incompetent medical department.
In contrast we can look at a club that most people deem to be very well run. Let's say Union Berlin:
Pawel Wzolek, signed from Legia on a free, loaned back to them after half a season, made that permanent for free. Played 17 minute against Waldhof Mannheim.
Keita Endo, signed for 900k out of J-League, played about 500 minutes in Bundesliga, 1 goal 0 assists (attacking midfielder), currently on loan at Braunschweig.
Tim Skarke, signed on a free this summer, played 100 minutes, loaned to Schalke half a year later.
Tymoteusz Puchacz, signed for €2.5m from Lech Poznan, loaned out half a year later, loaned out again this summer.
Rick van Dronghelen, signed for €500k, literally 0 minutes played for Union, currently on his second loan out.
It's fairly normal for transfers to be hit and miss, when you're looking for extreme bargains.
And regarding the outgoing loans, finances are important of course, but it may have gone beyond that. Having an unmotivated player, who earns several times the wage of his peers is bad for team spirit. And as far as I remember there were reports about Lukebakio's attitude even at Wolfsburg.
That part sounds seriously fishy to me. Like people doing stuff just to do something.
Last edited:
Sacking your coach, because you decided 5 minutes ago that you're a big club now isn't long term thinking. The moment they started spending that money on transfers this was only ever going one way.
I'd say it is, just very stupid.
Köln starting Selke... what have Schalke done to Baumgart that he insults them this way?
It's that time of year again, where Fährmann returns?
Is he still eating cake at half time?
Is he still eating cake at half time?
Considering how much they usually rely on counters I was quite surprised how often Leverkusen immediately lost possession again. I'm not entirely sure whether that was because of Dortmund's Gegenpressing or Leverkusen's lack of quality.
It was nice to see Adeyemi finally score his first goal, he put in a lot of work recently, even if it didn't necessarily translate to attacking impact.
Considering Terzic often gets his tactical choices questioned I think it's okay to give him a bit of praise today. By benching Hummels, Guerreiro and picking Wolf, Can, he prioritized an athletic and hard-working line-up and after about 20 minutes it really paid off, as Dortmund gradually started to snuffed out most of Leverkusen's counter attacks and could otherwise just sit back and watch them fail to build an attack.
On the other hand Dortmund more or less fell off in the second halves of their Augsburg and Mainz games, so maybe I shouldn't praise him too early.
It was nice to see Adeyemi finally score his first goal, he put in a lot of work recently, even if it didn't necessarily translate to attacking impact.
Considering Terzic often gets his tactical choices questioned I think it's okay to give him a bit of praise today. By benching Hummels, Guerreiro and picking Wolf, Can, he prioritized an athletic and hard-working line-up and after about 20 minutes it really paid off, as Dortmund gradually started to snuffed out most of Leverkusen's counter attacks and could otherwise just sit back and watch them fail to build an attack.
On the other hand Dortmund more or less fell off in the second halves of their Augsburg and Mainz games, so maybe I shouldn't praise him too early.
Any reason Reyna did not play today?
Reyna is someone, who gets subbed in when Dortmund need a goal. They didn't need a goal.
So his role has devolved into the American (midfield) Ole?
Good match between Dortmund and Leverkusen, both teams played well but Dortmund just the more clinical.
Good to see Wirtz slowly getting back into form, Diaby was having one his frustrating nights having missed a ton of chances and also being selfish on some. Brandt, Korbel and Bellingham I feel were the better players for Dortmund.
Title race looking really good with Leipzig 2 points and Dortmund just 3 behind Bayern. Sadly though I don't think this is down to the quality of the sides, but rather Bayern just being really inconsistent this season. Could easily see no German teams in the quarter final of the UCL, the only one playing decently well right now is Leipzig and they're up against City, so little chance for them there.
Good to see Wirtz slowly getting back into form, Diaby was having one his frustrating nights having missed a ton of chances and also being selfish on some. Brandt, Korbel and Bellingham I feel were the better players for Dortmund.
Title race looking really good with Leipzig 2 points and Dortmund just 3 behind Bayern. Sadly though I don't think this is down to the quality of the sides, but rather Bayern just being really inconsistent this season. Could easily see no German teams in the quarter final of the UCL, the only one playing decently well right now is Leipzig and they're up against City, so little chance for them there.
You're funny. There's no way you would praise a Leverkusen manager in any way, shape or form for having 0.82 to 1.77 xG against a clearly inferior team in terms of individual quality. Dortmund was anything but impressive today. Not exactly terrible either but not nearly enough for their ambitions. And starting Can and Wolf and playing Modeste ahead of Moukoko was a bit anxious.
I mean.. 21 to 7 shots, 1.77 to 0.82 xG and 57% possession for Leverkusen today. The result is good but how it was achieved is something only an underdog should be praised for, not a supposed top 2 team.
Who, may I ask?
I think devolved is a strong word in his case, considering he never really was a fully established starter and missed all those months out injured.
There's just not much reason to start him. He needs to grow up and toughen up.
You're quoting a half-time assessment and project it on your full-time impression.
Leverkusen are good at precisely one thing and he made specific changes to counter that.
Of course Dortmund shouldn't play like that every match and it wasn't a stellar performance, but I respect the successful adjustment. And while you keep slating Wolf, if I remember correctly he produced the turnover and set up Brandt on the opener, he gave the cross that "forced" the 2:0 and he nearly milked another own goal out of Tabsoba later on.
In the end I didn't like Dortmund's passivity after the second goal and I didn't understand the Modeste sub either, but on the other hand in the case of Leverkusen passivity is actually a perfectly valid approach, for the aforementioned reason.
Last edited:
Isn't Dortmund playing bad very often despite winning? Seems for me to be an ongoing occurence... 
I see, and because Leverkusen can only counter, that's why they dominated Dortmund today and produced better chances.
Let's be real, what you say makes zero sense and there's no way you would let a fan of a club you dislike get away with such mental gymnastics without one of your clever comments
Still hope you get your act together and put up a title challenge for that tumbling Bayern side, though. If they even win it in such a season, we could as well just call it quits.
This constant argument using xG metrics is really getting tiresome now. Dortmund where sharper in the important duels, especially in midfield and capitalised on our mistakes while not offering too many themselves. We couldnt create chances out of or own possession which is something that Xabi has yet to prove he can achieve with this team. Deserved win for Dortmund, back to the drawing board.
I'm not exactly dishing out hot takes here. Against an opponent that struggles to create in possession you take a passive approach and watch them struggle until there's some space to exploit.I see, and because Leverkusen can only counter, that's why they dominated Dortmund today and produced better chances.
Let's be real, what you say makes zero sense and there's no way you would let a fan of a club you dislike get away with such mental gymnastics without one of your clever comments
Still hope you get your act together and put up a title challenge for that tumbling Bayern side, though. If they even win it in such a season, we could as well just call it quits.
At the time of the 0:2 possession was pretty much dead even and xG wasn't anything to write home about either - not that some minor difference in xG halfway through a game is something we should use as analysis anyway.. After that Dortmund became even more/too passive and didn't play out their counters very well. So Leverkusen had a lot of the ball and got a few chances in.
Leverkusen had twice the xG for over 70 minutes or so. So obviously, the tactical approach didn't work.
xG being influenced by the scoreline and teams approach is something xG worhshippers seemingly cant comprehend.
It is not influenced by team approach. It is influenced by the scoreline, yes, but that wasn't the case today.
xG isn't meant to tell you absolute truths about select periods of single games. And even then: Leverkusen had point eight xG according to understat at the time the second goal went in. That's nothing special and the relation to Dortmund's goals is particularly irrelevant, since Dortmund wasn't playing for xG or xPts, but actual goals and they got them quite early, so they committed less players to attack and created less later in the game.
Your whole argument is a gross misuse of the model.
That's again nonsense. Yes, you don't need to play for goals/xG when you're in the lead but Dortmund could or almost should already have been behind when they scored their first and it was a natrow one goal lead until the 55th, at which time they also had fewer chances/xG. Leverkusen actually didn't create that much xG after the second goal. So your argument of is pointless yet a bit funny considering that you've been guilty of the very same mistake you accuse me of quite often - but I guess these kind of detail isn't all that important when it comes to analyzing games of teams you dislike
Hernandez (ACL), Mazraoui (inflammation of the heart muscle after Morocco decided to play him too early after having had Covid…) and Neuer (broken leg because he had to go skiing).
Well, you can't attribute Neuer's stupidity to the WC I'm afraid