I think the stuff with his brothers probably hit the most. They seemed close
Paul Pogba - Juventus player
- Thread starter charlenefan
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His problem here, aside from injuries, was that his skillset and playstyle made him an imperfect fit in every position we could have played him in.
His best attributes (carrying the ball, range of passing) were things that required him to play deeper. He was therefore less effective starting higher up the pitch, particularly poor at playing behind the striker because he wanted more time on the ball than you get allowed in that position. He had some good games coming off the left, but his lack of pace meant it wasn't great for the overall balance of the team and it still somewhat wasted the things he was world class at. Unfortunately, playing deeper in a midfield two exposed the things he's actively bad at (lack of defensive acumen, a propensity to make bad decisions and dawdle on the ball).
To get the best out of him without being too porous you need to play him in a midfield three with two more defensively minded players, but doing so leaves a huge gap between the midfield and the front three because you have no-one naturally filling that more advanced position to link midfield and attack. France got round that by playing him alongside Kante and Matuidi/Rabiot behind a lopsided front three where Griezemann dropped in from the left to occupy that space behind the striker. But, that only worked because they had those exact players available and it played to all their strengths. It was never feasible to try and recreate that at club level by buying a bunch of players to accommodate Pogba when an injury to him would ruin your system and mean it was all for nothing. Also, why go to all that effort when the alternative is buying an attacking midfielder like Bruno who fulfills the same creative role in the team more consistently without needing the same coddling?
I think the criticism of Pogba as a person is over the top and strays into the nasty far too often. But I think it's fair to criticise him for his unwillingness to work on his weaknesses in the 5+ years he was here. Because let's be clear, he could have been one of the greatest centre midfield players of all time if he'd worked on the defensive side of his game and cut out the silly stuff.
love to see it
Thought he was the most talented in the squad when on song but never thought he was the right fit. It’s easy to call out inconsistency but the environment also matters.
Playing with the right players doesn’t have to be better players.
Playing with the right players doesn’t have to be better players.
Good to see him back playing some football
Pogba's problem now is his injuries. People are really over the top when it comes to criticizing him. Some of you imagine his agent spoke out every month or something, or that he literally wasn't one of our best players during his time at the club. The problem is that he cost a lot of money, and United did not have any dm apart from old legs Matic, who wasn't even that good at breaking up attacks.
A poor midfield, because United did not know how to create a good midfield group. He obviously has his flaws as a player, but nothing that can't be solved. Ten Hag literally just solved one of our 2 biggest midfield weak points within 2 months, that everyone here on this forum suggested we should do, but never did. He brought in a DM in Casemiro, as opposed to having McTominay or Fred be that guy. He also brought in Eriksen, a temporary cheap solution in response to not acquiring Frenkie. In other words, he knew United lacked someone who can help stop attacks, and someone who can be our metronome type midfielder.
A large part of the blame should go towards our former managers, who could not identify these obvious weaknesses, which also highlighted Pogba's own weaknesses as a player.
A poor midfield, because United did not know how to create a good midfield group. He obviously has his flaws as a player, but nothing that can't be solved. Ten Hag literally just solved one of our 2 biggest midfield weak points within 2 months, that everyone here on this forum suggested we should do, but never did. He brought in a DM in Casemiro, as opposed to having McTominay or Fred be that guy. He also brought in Eriksen, a temporary cheap solution in response to not acquiring Frenkie. In other words, he knew United lacked someone who can help stop attacks, and someone who can be our metronome type midfielder.
A large part of the blame should go towards our former managers, who could not identify these obvious weaknesses, which also highlighted Pogba's own weaknesses as a player.
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I think there were 2 big moments when the problems could have been fixed.
He was signed after already signing Mkhi. That meant a 4-2-3-1 was set in stone, and as you said, that's already a problem when trying to fit him...There was enough in the squad and budget to make it a 4-3-3, but I don't think Jose has used that formation since 2007. We ended up playing Fellaini-Pogba--Mkhi. Incoherent. Galactico mindset, and a predictable result.
The next one is summer 2019. Ole's half-season had shown that it won't always work, but Matic-Herrera-Pogba is a very good midfield. All three are in their best positions, and it's the closest he got to the kind of cover he had at France and Juve. So obviously, the next signing replaced the ageing Matic with a top class DM, Dan James.
If Fabinho had been signed instead of either Matic or Fred, I'm 99% sure it would have worked out.
About his defensive issues- yes, he should have improved. But the Casemiro-Eriksen partnership has shown that someone who's even weaker defensively can work in the PL. Just needs the correct team and coaching.
Don't think you need to exactly replicate the French setup. The important parts are a proper DM and a good partner midfielder (from the current team, Sabitzer would be good, but it would also work with a passer). If one of the forwards likes dropping deep (staring wistfully at another very injured French player), and the others run in behind, everything should work itself out, and the potential is massive. But for sure, it's a riskier and more difficult setup than doing the obvious thing and putting in a specialist AM (Bruno) at 10.
e - just remembered that modric's first season at Real was under jose and he looked nothing like what he would become. he's another player who's position in a 4-2-3-1 isn't clear. with a proper DM and partner, it's the best midfield in the world.
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I agree with most of what you're saying, though I wouldn't go so far as saying that "we failed him more than he failed us" only because United were paying him a lot of money to play for us. The coaches and Pogba both bear responsibility for his unfulfilled promise here.
Based on his comments about the contract situation with his agent, I will also speculate a little in that if he did play well for us, Raiola would've been demanding more money from us by trying to ship him off to Madrid every now and then. The transfer circus would've still been there, just for different reasons.
That said, I never like seeing any player get bogged down with injuries, and I'm glad he's back playing again. For Juventus.
Totally agree with this. He is what he is, expecting to turn into that he is not is crazy. He is just not the right fit. We should have parted ways long time ago. I'm much happier with our current midfielders, lives and breathes football.
Wonder how he would of looked playing next to Casemiro
Shit as usual…. Problem is him, not the players around him…. So so happy we let him go (or he wanted to go)…. Rotten eggs needs to be kicked out asap
Pogba is an incredibly talented footballer with the ball at feet in certain moments. But he never learned how to be a great team player which is crucial in midfield. Highlight reel player.
I would like to preface this, by reiterating that Pogba wasn't a good fit anymore due to his salary and injury issues.
I've maintained this from the very start. Midfielders can have weaknesses. Pogba doesn't have good workrate, and isn't disciplined enough to be that guy who demands the ball everytime, allowing him to dictate matches with his technical and passing ability. He can go forward too much, and can sometimes play with the ball costing turnovers.
These negative attributes can look worse when paired with other players who also don't provide what he lacks. Fred provides workrate, but is also erratic with his technical ability, nor does he have the passing ability to demand the ball and dictate the match. Mctominay cannot break up play, is slow to react to actual danger, does not have the technique to demand the ball, nor does he have the passing ability to dictate. These two were largely Pogba's partners during his time here. Matic was a has been, who could not provide workrate, nor was he actually that good at breaking up play.
The midfield unit providing all aspects of our play is the end goal. Ten Hag brought in Casemiro and Eriksen to aid in helping us have a complete midfield. Ten Hag realized that we lacked these two attributes (defensive & playmaking) in midfield, considering we had a work horse in Bruno. He identified our strengths, and what we lacked.
Why did Pogba work at Juve with Vidal and Pirlo? Because they formed a good midfield unit, with all of them providing to the team what each of them did not have individually. Two great passers in Pirlo and Pogba, a constant passer in Pirlo, workrate through Vidal, creativity through Pogba and Pirlo, attacking threat from Vidal, someone that stays back in Pirlo with Vidal aiding in defensive duty through workrate, etc...
You could say this for numerous of our current players, who when under Ten hag, now look like they perform at a higher standard than what we've been used to.
I've maintained this from the very start. Midfielders can have weaknesses. Pogba doesn't have good workrate, and isn't disciplined enough to be that guy who demands the ball everytime, allowing him to dictate matches with his technical and passing ability. He can go forward too much, and can sometimes play with the ball costing turnovers.
These negative attributes can look worse when paired with other players who also don't provide what he lacks. Fred provides workrate, but is also erratic with his technical ability, nor does he have the passing ability to demand the ball and dictate the match. Mctominay cannot break up play, is slow to react to actual danger, does not have the technique to demand the ball, nor does he have the passing ability to dictate. These two were largely Pogba's partners during his time here. Matic was a has been, who could not provide workrate, nor was he actually that good at breaking up play.
The midfield unit providing all aspects of our play is the end goal. Ten Hag brought in Casemiro and Eriksen to aid in helping us have a complete midfield. Ten Hag realized that we lacked these two attributes (defensive & playmaking) in midfield, considering we had a work horse in Bruno. He identified our strengths, and what we lacked.
Why did Pogba work at Juve with Vidal and Pirlo? Because they formed a good midfield unit, with all of them providing to the team what each of them did not have individually. Two great passers in Pirlo and Pogba, a constant passer in Pirlo, workrate through Vidal, creativity through Pogba and Pirlo, attacking threat from Vidal, someone that stays back in Pirlo with Vidal aiding in defensive duty through workrate, etc...
I would love to see what ETH could do with a slightly younger version of him. Let's face it he wasted his career with us and we wasted a lot of money and effort with him. I think he could have been virtually unplayable in this team.
Welcome back PP.
Hopefully he can stay fit and generate some momentum.
Hopefully he can stay fit and generate some momentum.
Most likely he'd sell him the first transfer window that came along, just like he did with Ronaldo and will probably do with Martial and Maguire.
I hold no grudges against the guy. He is who he is and we kept paying his salary for years hoping he would turn into something hes not. You know what most footballers are like from their attitude and behaviour and then its on the club to decide if they want that.
I hope he can have some semblance of a career at Juve because he has bags of talent. The Italian league should suit him as well. Long term injuries are a horrible thing for any footballer to have to endure so fingers crossed he doesn't suffer from them for the rest of his career.
I hope he can have some semblance of a career at Juve because he has bags of talent. The Italian league should suit him as well. Long term injuries are a horrible thing for any footballer to have to endure so fingers crossed he doesn't suffer from them for the rest of his career.
He will forever be the "I wonder how he would have done playing alongside this or that, in this team or that team" type of player. Ultimately he is not good enough himself and if you need to have 10 other world class players around him for him to show his qualities then what's the point really?
So the vodoo child has finally come back.
Hope he stays fit. Labile.
1st of March 2023 - minutes played in domestic league season 22/23
Paul Pogba 22'
Anthony Martial 458'
Let's see how it goes.
Paul Pogba 22'
Anthony Martial 458'
Let's see how it goes.
This would suggest the form of his career came from deep (by which, I'm assuming you're stating the World Cup run?), but it's at Juve with Pirlo and Vidal that he displayed his best, most consistent form, higher up and to the left, where, whilst losing some of the long passing, others elements came to the fore, namely shooting and crossing as well as sudden, raking crossfield passes out of nowhere. The net gain from that position was arguably never replicated again and certainly not tapped into with any of that presupposed consistency - that Pogba looked like a dead cert' to be a special, career-great player.
This thread - as was most of his career here - is a really bizarre carousel of hate/dislike for the player with barely any acknowledgement of timelines or why he - or things - ended up as they were. Going from structure and a defined role designed to get the very best out of him, to sort of being dumped in a side and told to play is deconstructive at best, and calamitous at worst, and in such a young, whispy player, a good manager with his best interests at heart is going to tap into his psyche and make sure he keeps him tuned in, motivated and focused, and most importantly like he is with the team rather than divided from it. We had the antithesis of what both coaching and managing should be whilst he was here, and his personality type is going to be one of the first to fall foul of that. Of course the player has blame laid at his feet, as professionals are supposed to always do their best and be switched on, but again, quality managers and coaches do not let situations get so out of hand or have no clue what they're doing with the players at their disposal - it's no coincidence whatsoever that in structured environments with strong, personable coaches, Pogba always showed his best, most disciplined football. At least with a ten Hag here at his arrival, all the groundwork would be there for the player to get on board with, with no nebulous, undefined or uncertain periods of 'what to do with him' or 'how to handle him' rearing their proverbial heads.
It's also not unique to Pogba, as most of those really talented players need strong, skilled coaches to keep them in line and extract all of their best qualities whilst suppressing the worst traits and flaws in their game and/or mental make up. I'd also say working on weaknesses comes by way of a coach with the know-how giving the briefs and instructions for the talent to adhere to. We had no such level of coach here during Pogba's tenure. All of our young players suffered because of this, and the whole squad atrophied in unison with only those from elsewhere coming into the set up and lighting fires, either maintaining their previous standards or finally, falling in line with the mean of the shambolic environment they had entered. Bruno gets the most credit of all for the fact he was unaffected and unperturbed, steadfast in whatever he was taught in Portgual and not tainted with the brush so many others eventually fell foul of as what they once were became a thing of the past... ironically as our own coaching permeated their collective consciousnesses.
I don't think Pogba needs excuses made for him, but the reality of what went on here is nearly always redacted in favour of a nonsense narrative or an upholding of real dislike for the player when everything went tits up towards the end.
Who decided it was a good idea to call him PP?
love to see it
Yep. We used a similar style for two short periods in his time here. About two months in his first season when we had Carrick (who was on his last legs), Herrera and Pogba playing together. Pogba was fairly good without being amazing, and it was probably the best we played as a team that season as we simply had a well balanced midfield. Then for another two months after Ole took over when we had Matic-Herrera-Pogba together, and it was probably the best we've played since Fergie retired. Pogba himself was brilliant, for one of those months in particular he was up there with Messi as the best performing player on the planet that month.
That's it. In his 6 years here, those two short periods of roughly four months in total were the only time we played a properly balanced midfield where each player fit together properly.
There were certainly times he should have done better, and he should be criticised for that. But it also has to be acknowledged that our managers were absolutely woeful at putting together a team and midfield in particular, and it resulted in every single one of our players and midfielders consistently failing.
And under ETH
Heh, PP.
love to see it
Rated as a top player by us. We actually have some top players now, and the difference is night and day. Weirdly you feel they would have dropped into our worst sides and still been top players, there wouldn’t have been constant discussions about what other players we needed to sign for them to be able to turn up and actually play most weeks.
He was never a “top” player, he was just a skilful one, no different to the likes of Martial, Saint-Maximan or Grealish.
The biggest issue I see with Pogba these days is the perception that he doesn't care enough.
I agree with the notion that his problems were always his injuries. It's not on him that he was played in a double pivot.
He delivered when played in his preferred role more often than not.
He delivered when played in his preferred role more often than not.
With respect, but this is complete and utter nonsense. How can you compare Paul Pogba to Martial and Jack Grealish.
Paul Pogba is one of (arguably the..) most talented footballer's of his generation, just after Messi, CR7, Ibra etc. It is a shame, because he isn't remembered for the sheer quality of his football. He hit 19, or was it 20 goals for us, in one season when we were really rubbish (and don't say pens' don't count, because they do... big games are regularly decided by pens'..). When he played well, NO TEAM could live with him in the Premiership.. I saw him take City apart at the Eithad, and walk all over Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, and these performances were not met with surprise, just frsutration, because it highlighted the talent that he had, and what he could do, if, if, he could get that balance right between his role and the expectations at United, and sort his stuff out with Manager's. Jose' killed him, because Jose' doesn't like people who garner more attention than him (remember the first player he ousted at Real? A legend, Raul...).
His performance for France during 2018 WC, stamped his class all over the tournament.
The guy is a brilliant, naturally brilliant football player, who has allowed too many distractions to adversely affect his game. A great shame, because I, personally love watching him play.
Much like Jones, injuries are not his fault, I don’t like to see players get abuse because of injuries. Glad to see he’s back on the pitch again.
always felt that at United we couldn’t get the best out of him. Curious whether ETH could have but we will never know
always felt that at United we couldn’t get the best out of him. Curious whether ETH could have but we will never know
I dont think ETH would have tolerated him.
Is this satire? If so it’s very good, haha.
Crazy to think that was his first appearance for Juve...seems a lifetime ago he left Manchester.
Football moves on so quickly.
Football moves on so quickly.
I really liked him in his first season for us. Think he should have had a shit load more assists than he ended up with. It felt like that season, although we won Europa and Caraboa cup, we ended up sixth because we kept drawing games and missing shit loads of chances.
maybe im wrong, but it felt like Pogba would create a shit load for our forwards, and even though Zlatan had 28 at the end, he should have had another 10 or so easily.
I think the next season was a problem because Zlatan felt like the perfect Jose player to help communicate with others especially somebody like Pogba. Having Zlatan out didnt help.
Pogba looked good (as said above) when we had Matic, Herrera and Pogba and even during lockdown when we had Matic, Bruno, Pogba. I never understood why we (united/Ole) didnt go for a DM like Matic (but somebody who could get around and play every game).
It wasnt funny at the time, but looking back, Pogba launching his emoji just before the liverpool game, then having a stinker and giving away a stupid penalty seemed to sum up his time after his first season back.
Also the whole 'unlocking' thing became a meme, how we werent unlocking Pogba, so we bought Matic to unlock him, but needed Fred to unlock Matic, which stifled Fred, so we needed Mctominay to unlock Fred... etc
maybe im wrong, but it felt like Pogba would create a shit load for our forwards, and even though Zlatan had 28 at the end, he should have had another 10 or so easily.
I think the next season was a problem because Zlatan felt like the perfect Jose player to help communicate with others especially somebody like Pogba. Having Zlatan out didnt help.
Pogba looked good (as said above) when we had Matic, Herrera and Pogba and even during lockdown when we had Matic, Bruno, Pogba. I never understood why we (united/Ole) didnt go for a DM like Matic (but somebody who could get around and play every game).
It wasnt funny at the time, but looking back, Pogba launching his emoji just before the liverpool game, then having a stinker and giving away a stupid penalty seemed to sum up his time after his first season back.
Also the whole 'unlocking' thing became a meme, how we werent unlocking Pogba, so we bought Matic to unlock him, but needed Fred to unlock Matic, which stifled Fred, so we needed Mctominay to unlock Fred... etc
How did he play?
ETH would have gotten a tune out of him. Still disappointing how he never fulfilled his potential here.
I mean the real problem was that Matic was only able to move for about a season. I do think there's truth to the "we didn't build properly around him" but it's also true that as brilliant as certain parts of his game are, he's fundamentally flawed for modern football as he's not aware enough defensively to hold properly, but not good enough as a pressing force to play further forward.
Put Pogba in midfields 20 years ago and 442 formations and he would have been unbelievable, as there was much more space around the pitch and games were more end to end where he could have thrived with his long passing and dribbling (sort of why he's so good for France, teams aren't as organized). But the obsession with structured pressing and closing space in the middle of the pitch means he's constantly a square peg in a round hole .
Left just when we were about to get a proper coach! Not to mention that a player like him is what we sought desperately all summer. He just didn't work out here, and it was the right decision to let him go. I bet even he wonders what would have been if he was here under Ten Hag.
It's the French alphabet so it's pronounced pépé