TsuWave
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I think the stuff with his brothers probably hit the most. They seemed closeIt must feel pretty bad. The injury, missing WC final and Juve points deduction.
I think the stuff with his brothers probably hit the most. They seemed closeIt must feel pretty bad. The injury, missing WC final and Juve points deduction.
His problem here, aside from injuries, was that his skillset and playstyle made him an imperfect fit in every position we could have played him in.When he started at Juve and made his name, the coach was Conte, not somebody who would excuse a lack of effort or not following instructions. I don't think Allegri would tolerate much goofing off either. Did very well under both. And Deschamps, another of the same type.
Generally speaking, outside the last 6 months where he absolutely downed tools, I think he was a professional on the pitch at United. He had obvious weaknesses, and so did the team, and it was mostly not a good fit. Not least because there was never a thought, over 4 whole years, to do the obvious and get a DM behind him and CM alongside him, instead playing him behind inferior players like Mkhi/Mata/Lingard/Pereira and finally getting Bruno, an incompatible star signing. From the way his team-mates spoke about him (including demanding ones like Bruno or Ibra) and from what I saw on the pitch, I don't think he matches the caricature of him: virus, lazy, etc.
I don't follow off-pitch stuff much, so a lot of the things that made people angry (the documentary, agent saying things), I found out later. It's funny that the two times his agent opened his mouth before a big match, he delivered a big performance (3-2 vs City, goal and fighting performance off the bench at Leipzig).
From what he showed today, he's done physically. He just gave up on some of the clearances aimed at his head, he'd usually at least fight for that type of ball. Probably scared of another injury.
I think there were 2 big moments when the problems could have been fixed.His problem here, aside from injuries, was that his skillset and playstyle made him an imperfect fit in every position we could have played him in.
His best attributes (carrying the ball, range of passing) were things that required him to play deeper. He was therefore less effective starting higher up the pitch, particularly poor at playing behind the striker because he wanted more time on the ball than you get allowed in that position. He had some good games coming off the left, but his lack of pace meant it wasn't great for the overall balance of the team and it still somewhat wasted the things he was world class at. Unfortunately, playing deeper in a midfield two exposed the things he's actively bad at (lack of defensive acumen, a propensity to make bad decisions and dawdle on the ball).
To get the best out of him without being too porous you need to play him in a midfield three with two more defensively minded players, but doing so leaves a huge gap between the midfield and the front three because you have no-one naturally filling that more advanced position to link midfield and attack. France got round that by playing him alongside Kante and Matuidi/Rabiot behind a lopsided front three where Griezemann dropped in from the left to occupy that space behind the striker. But, that only worked because they had those exact players available and it played to all their strengths. It was never feasible to try and recreate that at club level by buying a bunch of players to accommodate Pogba when an injury to him would ruin your system and mean it was all for nothing. Also, why go to all that effort when the alternative is buying an attacking midfielder like Bruno who fulfills the same creative role in the team more consistently without needing the same coddling?
I think the criticism of Pogba as a person is over the top and strays into the nasty far too often. But I think it's fair to criticise him for his unwillingness to work on his weaknesses in the 5+ years he was here. Because let's be clear, he could have been one of the greatest centre midfield players of all time if he'd worked on the defensive side of his game and cut out the silly stuff.
I agree with most of what you're saying, though I wouldn't go so far as saying that "we failed him more than he failed us" only because United were paying him a lot of money to play for us. The coaches and Pogba both bear responsibility for his unfulfilled promise here.Yeah Pogba's side leaked the contract stuff but the United side was leaking that the previous contract offer was much lower and long before his contract expired, after which United just wasn't all that keen on resigning him anyway.
But I meant that if Pogba had a proper manager when we signed him in 2016, he would have had a very different career here. Ten Hag would love a 2016-2020 Pogba IMO. A younger Pogba next to Casemiro in our current team would be an incredible midfield tbh. But it would need the right manager (which Ten Hag is). Basically my point is that we failed Pogba far more than he failed us, and at this point his time as a serious player is done anyway due to injuries and decline.
Totally agree with this. He is what he is, expecting to turn into that he is not is crazy. He is just not the right fit. We should have parted ways long time ago. I'm much happier with our current midfielders, lives and breathes football.I think the criticism of Pogba as a person is over the top and strays into the nasty far too often. But I think it's fair to criticise him for his unwillingness to work on his weaknesses in the 5+ years he was here. Because let's be clear, he could have been one of the greatest centre midfield players of all time if he'd worked on the defensive side of his game and cut out the silly stuff.
Shit as usual…. Problem is him, not the players around him…. So so happy we let him go (or he wanted to go)…. Rotten eggs needs to be kicked out asapWonder how he would of looked playing next to Casemiro
You could say this for numerous of our current players, who when under Ten hag, now look like they perform at a higher standard than what we've been used to.Shit as usual…. Problem is him, not the players around him…. So so happy we let him go (or he wanted to go)…. Rotten eggs needs to be kicked out asap
Most likely he'd sell him the first transfer window that came along, just like he did with Ronaldo and will probably do with Martial and Maguire.I would love to see what ETH could do with a slightly younger version of him. Let's face it he wasted his career with us and we wasted a lot of money and effort with him. I think he could have been virtually unplayable in this team.
This would suggest the form of his career came from deep (by which, I'm assuming you're stating the World Cup run?), but it's at Juve with Pirlo and Vidal that he displayed his best, most consistent form, higher up and to the left, where, whilst losing some of the long passing, others elements came to the fore, namely shooting and crossing as well as sudden, raking crossfield passes out of nowhere. The net gain from that position was arguably never replicated again and certainly not tapped into with any of that presupposed consistency - that Pogba looked like a dead cert' to be a special, career-great player.His problem here, aside from injuries, was that his skillset and playstyle made him an imperfect fit in every position we could have played him in.
His best attributes (carrying the ball, range of passing) were things that required him to play deeper. He was therefore less effective starting higher up the pitch, particularly poor at playing behind the striker because he wanted more time on the ball than you get allowed in that position. He had some good games coming off the left, but his lack of pace meant it wasn't great for the overall balance of the team and it still somewhat wasted the things he was world class at. Unfortunately, playing deeper in a midfield two exposed the things he's actively bad at (lack of defensive acumen, a propensity to make bad decisions and dawdle on the ball).
To get the best out of him without being too porous you need to play him in a midfield three with two more defensively minded players, but doing so leaves a huge gap between the midfield and the front three because you have no-one naturally filling that more advanced position to link midfield and attack. France got round that by playing him alongside Kante and Matuidi/Rabiot behind a lopsided front three where Griezemann dropped in from the left to occupy that space behind the striker. But, that only worked because they had those exact players available and it played to all their strengths. It was never feasible to try and recreate that at club level by buying a bunch of players to accommodate Pogba when an injury to him would ruin your system and mean it was all for nothing. Also, why go to all that effort when the alternative is buying an attacking midfielder like Bruno who fulfills the same creative role in the team more consistently without needing the same coddling?
I think the criticism of Pogba as a person is over the top and strays into the nasty far too often. But I think it's fair to criticise him for his unwillingness to work on his weaknesses in the 5+ years he was here. Because let's be clear, he could have been one of the greatest centre midfield players of all time if he'd worked on the defensive side of his game and cut out the silly stuff.
Who decided it was a good idea to call him PP?
love to see it
Yep. We used a similar style for two short periods in his time here. About two months in his first season when we had Carrick (who was on his last legs), Herrera and Pogba playing together. Pogba was fairly good without being amazing, and it was probably the best we played as a team that season as we simply had a well balanced midfield. Then for another two months after Ole took over when we had Matic-Herrera-Pogba together, and it was probably the best we've played since Fergie retired. Pogba himself was brilliant, for one of those months in particular he was up there with Messi as the best performing player on the planet that month.This would suggest the form of his career came from deep (by which, I'm assuming you're stating the World Cup run?), but it's at Juve with Pirlo and Vidal that he displayed his best, most consistent form, higher up and to the left, where, whilst losing some of the long passing, others elements came to the fore, namely shooting and crossing as well as sudden, raking crossfield passes out of nowhere. The net gain from that position was arguably never replicated again and certainly not tapped into with any of that presupposed consistency - that Pogba looked like a dead cert' to be a special, career-great player.
And under ETHWonder how he would of looked playing next to Casemiro
Heh, PP.
love to see it
Rated as a top player by us. We actually have some top players now, and the difference is night and day. Weirdly you feel they would have dropped into our worst sides and still been top players, there wouldn’t have been constant discussions about what other players we needed to sign for them to be able to turn up and actually play most weeks.Injury issues, for sure.
The agent thing isn't a big deal, the problem was United was shit for the past decade while Pogba was rated as a top player and he wanted to be in a top club. If United was challenging for trophies, him and his agent wouldn't have moaned constantly.
Currently, yes Pogba is done as a serious player. But between 2016 when we signed him and for the next 4 years before he became a perma crock, he was wasted because of shit coaching, as he was a terrific player during that time but in a shit system/shit team/uncompetitive club. Currently though, yeah by a lot of accounts, our contract offer to him wasn't a serious one, as we didn't really want to keep him and he didn't want to stay. If we did even offer him a contract, which I am skeptical of.
With respect, but this is complete and utter nonsense. How can you compare Paul Pogba to Martial and Jack Grealish.Rated as a top player by us. We actually have some top players now, and the difference is night and day. Weirdly you feel they would have dropped into our worst sides and still been top players, there wouldn’t have been constant discussions about what other players we needed to sign for them to be able to turn up and actually play most weeks.
He was never a “top” player, he was just a skilful one, no different to the likes of Martial, Saint-Maximan or Grealish.
I dont think ETH would have tolerated him.Much like Jones, injuries are not his fault, I don’t like to see players get abuse because of injuries. Glad to see he’s back on the pitch again.
always felt that at United we couldn’t get the best out of him. Curious whether ETH could have but we will never know
Is this satire? If so it’s very good, haha.With respect, but this is complete and utter nonsense. How can you compare Paul Pogba to Martial and Jack Grealish.
Paul Pogba is one of (arguably the..) most talented footballer's of his generation, just after Messi, CR7, Ibra etc. It is a shame, because he isn't remembered for the sheer quality of his football. He hit 19, or was it 20 goals for us, in one season when we were really rubbish (and don't say pens' don't count, because they do... big games are regularly decided by pens'..). When he played well, NO TEAM could live with him in the Premiership.. I saw him take City apart at the Eithad, and walk all over Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, and these performances were not met with surprise, just frsutration, because it highlighted the talent that he had, and what he could do, if, if, he could get that balance right between his role and the expectations at United, and sort his stuff out with Manager's. Jose' killed him, because Jose' doesn't like people who garner more attention than him (remember the first player he ousted at Real? A legend, Raul...).
His performance for France during 2018 WC, stamped his class all over the tournament.
The guy is a brilliant, naturally brilliant football player, who has allowed too many distractions to adversely affect his game. A great shame, because I, personally love watching him play.
I mean the real problem was that Matic was only able to move for about a season. I do think there's truth to the "we didn't build properly around him" but it's also true that as brilliant as certain parts of his game are, he's fundamentally flawed for modern football as he's not aware enough defensively to hold properly, but not good enough as a pressing force to play further forward.I really liked him in his first season for us. Think he should have had a shit load more assists than he ended up with. It felt like that season, although we won Europa and Caraboa cup, we ended up sixth because we kept drawing games and missing shit loads of chances.
maybe im wrong, but it felt like Pogba would create a shit load for our forwards, and even though Zlatan had 28 at the end, he should have had another 10 or so easily.
I think the next season was a problem because Zlatan felt like the perfect Jose player to help communicate with others especially somebody like Pogba. Having Zlatan out didnt help.
Pogba looked good (as said above) when we had Matic, Herrera and Pogba and even during lockdown when we had Matic, Bruno, Pogba. I never understood why we (united/Ole) didnt go for a DM like Matic (but somebody who could get around and play every game).
It wasnt funny at the time, but looking back, Pogba launching his emoji just before the liverpool game, then having a stinker and giving away a stupid penalty seemed to sum up his time after his first season back.
Also the whole 'unlocking' thing became a meme, how we werent unlocking Pogba, so we bought Matic to unlock him, but needed Fred to unlock Matic, which stifled Fred, so we needed Mctominay to unlock Fred... etc
It's the French alphabet so it's pronounced pépéWho decided it was a good idea to call him PP?