Yes, anyone calling that Spain team a 'far worse' version of Barca needs to have their football knowledge questioned IMO.
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
- Thread starter Samid
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He really showed his ignorance with that Deschamps shade
I think at club level, it happens far more often that your team is outplayed and you as a player are cut off supplies. Replace Mbappe with Benzema for example and I don't believe he would have done more.
But to be honest, I believe superstar players only have themselves to blame for this. They only play for the teams able to pay their enormous salaries and as it happens those aren't really the ones that function particularly well as collectives. Plus their work rate is an issue at this point in time, obviously.
I mean, looking at ability alone it is still relatively clear Mbappe and Messi are among the very best in the world. But when you play for a team that dominates its domestic competition and then is regularly outplayed in the UCL, it is also clear that people begin to question if you really are up there.
But to be honest, I believe superstar players only have themselves to blame for this. They only play for the teams able to pay their enormous salaries and as it happens those aren't really the ones that function particularly well as collectives. Plus their work rate is an issue at this point in time, obviously.
I mean, looking at ability alone it is still relatively clear Mbappe and Messi are among the very best in the world. But when you play for a team that dominates its domestic competition and then is regularly outplayed in the UCL, it is also clear that people begin to question if you really are up there.
They had Mata(when he was in his prime) as well. Their squad depth was out of this world.
One of the funniest posts I've read on here in a long time. Your desperation has really made you reach spectacularly here, mate. Name 20 players that are above Messi in World Cup history. I'll wait.
The stuff you said about the CL and WC is nonsense as well with teams like Lyon reaching the CL semi finals but I'll deal with that later. Just waiting for your list of 20 so I can have a good morning chuckle.
Why couldn't a very good portugal squad beat Morocco who went down to 10 men with lots of mintutes to go? Because football doesn't always tend to work the way we think it should.
Mostly agree with this, but I should point out that Mbappe is still far more prolific at club level than he is at international level.
The point about the inflated salaries cannot be repeated enough, long term it hurts the team directly (in terms of budget) and indirectly (because no good player in Europe would wanna play for a team where his wages won't be near the top earners at that place).
Mbappe cannot cry about having no support and no bench, he played a role into weakening his team overall
Messi won his first for being the best player in team that won everything at club level. Neuer wasn't even at Bayern Munich , how and why should he have won that ? Are you okay ?
He's talking about Messi's first World Cup golden ball.
Ah, that glorified trophy
I think it is more than him just not being interested. He needs a team around him willing to run for him and be set up specifically to get the best out of him. That is not a problem as it was a system that took Argentina to the World Cup. As much as the narrative suggests Messi carried a team of average players to the World Cup, it looked to me like a team doing the (really) heavy lifting for its star player. Kind of like a tired mule having to carry a fat-rich businessman up a mountain so they can say they reached the summit. It is not even a criticism, it was clear Argentina could only win the competition with Messi doing an impression of his best, so they found the methods to allow that to happen. He was fantastic in the World Cup.
The problem is at PSG it isn't happening, and it is not happening at any top club in Europe. But specifically at PSG playing to suit Messi wouldn't work. Firstly, there are other star players who will not become grunts for Messi to shine. Secondly, the players in the team are not the kind of "work hard, passion, and grind" sort of players. So, it seems to me Galtier tries to make Messi useful in another way, by making him the passing link between the lines in midfield and attack. This works in Ligue 1 mostly but against a well-organized top team, it just becomes easy to take him out of the game.
It is what it is, he is 35 now and is still an outstanding player. I want to see if there is a coach who can take him (for PSG or another team) and find a way for him to be useful in big games.
The problem is at PSG it isn't happening, and it is not happening at any top club in Europe. But specifically at PSG playing to suit Messi wouldn't work. Firstly, there are other star players who will not become grunts for Messi to shine. Secondly, the players in the team are not the kind of "work hard, passion, and grind" sort of players. So, it seems to me Galtier tries to make Messi useful in another way, by making him the passing link between the lines in midfield and attack. This works in Ligue 1 mostly but against a well-organized top team, it just becomes easy to take him out of the game.
It is what it is, he is 35 now and is still an outstanding player. I want to see if there is a coach who can take him (for PSG or another team) and find a way for him to be useful in big games.
Pretty much this. I think you need to get him into situations in which he can utilize his abilities and against weaker teams, it is no issue because PSG dominates through sheer qualitative advantage. But when they meet a team like Bayern, they don't get him into those situations and the work rates of him and Mbappe become an issue. He'd probably be much better for a team like City or Bayern or speaking about this season even Arsenal or Barcelona that has a really profound possession game and dominates through great positioning and counter pressing.
But the question is whether what he offers is worth those complements at this point in time since there are other players who offer a bit of what he does (albeit not as outrageously good obviously) without the drawbacks. It's sad that we probably won't get to know because it seems the teams who could afford him tend to be more individualistic.
Neuer wasn't at Bayern Munich in 2014? Are you okay?
See when I said he wouldn't get a job managing a tesco that's exaggeration. Deschamps is in charge of the best team in international football, he wouldn't get a job at the equivalent should he leave France, man city, bayern Munich, real Madrid, Barcelona, us, all wouldn't take him, psg might but I doubt it. Look at who Portugal had managing them, probably a top 10 side in the world you'd say, and they had Fernando Santos who won't get a top 10 club role, and now they've got Roberto martinez, who after getting sacked by a mistake premier league club, got hired by the number 1 ranked international side in the world, won feck all with their golden generation, then got to take over another top 10 international side.
Clearly the level of management is a fair bit below club level
He's right though
I wouldnt bet on Deschamps being successful at any big club
It's interesting that in the build up to the game it was all about Mbappe and how important he is to PSG, but once they lose the narrative switches that it is Messi who lets them down. Held to a totally different standard than any other player ever.
I think the job description is very different primarily. You don't get to build a squad, you have to work with what you have. You can't train as many automatisms and systems as you can at club level because your time with the team is sparce.
Which means that a) international football is in general less systemized and more improvised and b) if you actually manage to organize an international team to the same extent as a club one (Spain 2008 - 2012, Germany 2014), it is a huge advantage over your competitors. It's the same effect as we saw yesterday, IMO, since a strong collective can keep world class players completely quiet.
The truly iconic stuff happens when such a top star plays for a team that has a very strong collective such as Messi under Pep or Cristiano in his CL winning seasons. Unfortunately, I'd say we haven't seen a top 3 player in the world at a top 3 team in the world since Cristiano under Zidane and Messi/Neymar in 2015. And the question is, is that because they aren't suited to it anymore due to their work rate or because the best clubs currently aren't the most wealthy?
You could probably make the argument that salah or de bruyne featured somewhere in a top 3 list since Ronaldo regressed, maybe not, maybe its been lewandowski, Messi, mbappe but I'd say it's close.
I think the issue is really a lot of the top managers nowadays love to micromanage, and managing a team where they see the players for a week a two a few times a year and can't sign anyone isn't an attractive proposition for most top level managers. I think both Ronaldo and Messi have suffered for having poorer managers at an international level, Ronaldo had his peak years under one of the most dull managers I've seen, Messi had an amateur in Maradona managing him when you'd say he was at his absolute peak in 2010
Also it was mainly verrati who fecked up twice to lose them the game. Bayern were set up very well and were solid after a shakey start. The Danish commentators here also singled out Mpabbe as the man to make the difference. And he had a poor game as well.
Reading PSG fan forums, they seem really pissed with him and his signing overall. How do the PSG fans here feel about his time at PSG?
@Oly Francis
@Oly Francis
Reading one of their forums right now.
" Useless dwarf motherfecker with stolen soundtrack "
Autotranslate may not have been correct.
People don’t need to be PSG fans to understand where and what problem is.
Messi went there for other things than just football. However, he is still their best player. There is illusion that Mbappe is better player but that stays with just that. Illusion. Without Messi, they wouldn’t even come this far. Question is if they would even have lead in their League without him. A poor constructed team.
They made a CL final before Messi. I think currently Mpabbe is a better player, but Messi's been closer to his real level relative to his age compared to last year.
Two seasons before Messi : CL final and CL semi final
Two seasons since Messi joined : last 16 and last 16
Ronaldo riders have been down bad since December. The combination of Ronaldo's decline, no club wanting him and him moving to SA, topped off by Messi winning the WC, has sent a lot of them into a crazy downward spiral.
It would almost be sad if it wasn't so amusing.
It would almost be sad if it wasn't so amusing.
They think signing him was a mistake. That he's too old and needs to go and that signing him added nothing of value to the club.
Also heard a part of their fanbase say that the era where Messi dominated (technical/possession football) is long gone and that now you win with players like Mbappe who are fast on the break and can play in transition.
It's actually just Messi fans spouting nonsense "benzema didn't deserve player of the year" "international football is better than club football" or the post above "psg wouldn't have reached the last 16 without messi"
Ronaldo had been poor since the summer, nothing to do with December, it's more than Messi fans have become unbearable since the world cup. Plenty who thought Messi was the GOAT in November and that international football didn't matter, now claim its the best level of football and necessary to be the GOAT
But now they could say. If that had been a 34 or 35 year old Ronaldo they would have won the damn thing. Or at least say he scored in the knockouts. In any case buying someone at 34 years old to win them the CL is incredibly stupid expectations. I think Messi was signed more to enhance PSG's non factor in prestige despite all the money they got. When you take their wages into consideration both Messi and Ronaldo were never worth it.
As I said. Poor constructed team. They had better teams previous years. You can’t play with Messi, Mbappe and Neymar together and expect to win. There is no balance.
What on earth are you talking about.
Well Neymar never plays before his sisters birthday.
Your posts in the Ronaldo threads (I remember them clearly as you and that Sporting fan really stand out) have been too much for me to seriously discuss this matter with you buddy. Sorry.
Right but you said poorly constructed team that couldn't reach this level without messi, even though they did reach this point without Messi, when it was neymar and mbappe
"The team is unbalanced."
Last year, PSG played Real Madrid. They were given a penalty. Messi took the penalty. He missed. PSG would go out against Real Madrid by one goal.
This is a scenario where the "team" does not matter, it is literally just Messi vs. the goalkeeper.
Last year, PSG played Real Madrid. They were given a penalty. Messi took the penalty. He missed. PSG would go out against Real Madrid by one goal.
This is a scenario where the "team" does not matter, it is literally just Messi vs. the goalkeeper.
Both can be true. But yeah in this instance, Missi was at fault.
Tbf he said psg wouldn't get this far without Messi, so he must be thinking they'd be going out at the group stage if he wasn't there, not the last 16
Messi is a great player but his "fan" is just unbearable, very Barcelona-like.
Messi is great player, but his fan has a difficult personality even though he played great at NATIONAL LEVEL
NATIONAL LEVEL
Hard facts. The past few months has been very difficult for them. The World Cup ends all debate and everyone knows it deep down. Ronaldo himself knows it, which is why he wrote that long tearful public letter about the death of his greatest dream when Portugal got knocked out. Anyone who saw the footage of the celebrations in Argentina knows that there is no club prize that matters like the golden trophy. Ronaldo's most loyal soldiers (like the guys in this thread) will fight on manfully but it is ultimately a hopeless cause. The die has been cast.
I can remember when the World Cup settled the debate between Platini and Maradona. With time, the perceived gap between them as players grew and the same thing will happen with M&R.