Victor Osimhen

sullydnl

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Do we really wanna play like that, though? :lol: Endless crossing reminds me of... I don't even wanna say it.
Ten Hag's Ajax?

Of all the teams in the English, Spanish, Italian, German, French and Dutch leagues last season, only one averaged more crosses per 90 than Ajax. The season before that, only two.

It's not a coincidence that he has more often than not opted for big, physical CFs. The man likes having that target.
 

zaafi

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Ten Hag's Ajax?

Of all the teams in the English, Spanish, Italian, German, French and Dutch leagues last season, only one averaged more crosses per 90 than Ajax. The season before that, only two.

It's not a coincidence that he has more often than not opted for big, physical CFs. The man likes having that target.
Fair enough. Odd how he went for Weghorst who is an incredibly bad header of the ball if he wanted to play like that here :lol: I guess we'll see in the summer who he wants
 

ti vu

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Martial excels in link-up play and will do it with Eriksen, Antony and Bruno if Rashford is doubled up on. That's the beauty with Martial. His effective one-twos, close control, strength and hold-up play can easily carve a defense open in a split second. Osimhen, on the other hand, does not have his close control or quick feet and will instead camp in their box waiting for a cross. We would absolutely have more goals with him in the team this season, but is it worth €150m than another striker who could be just as efficient, but also better in other areas?
Goal poaching is still one of the most sought after ability in the game. Osinhem hold up play is different and better in other situation. His pressing is very good too.

Nobody carve that Milan defense today up using Napoli tactic. Trying to dribbling 2-3 players, passing around only facing another set of blocker won't do. They had one of the top dribbler in Europe and still failed miserably this game. It's time to go direct which got them the consolation goal. They left it too late. In that scenario, Osinhem is one of the few best CF you can find at the moment. Put in enough cross, and he would be threatening in the box and opened the game up.
 

zaafi

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Goal poaching is still one of the most sought after ability in the game. Osinhem hold up play is different and better in other situation. His pressing is very good too.

Nobody carve that Milan defense today up using Napoli tactic. Trying to dribbling 2-3 players, passing around only facing another set of blocker won't do. They had one of the top dribbler in Europe and failed miserably this game. It's time to go direct which got them the consolation goal. They left it too late. In that scenario, Osinhem is one of the few best CF you can find at the moment.
Assuming we had all our players fit - Do you think we would beat Milan today?

Kvaratskhelia is a massive talent, indeed, but he isn't even top 10 dribblers in Serie A. Additionally, he didn't really have a particularly good game, so Rashford might have been way more effective.

The same question could also be asked the other way around; because Osimhen was camping in the box, forcing Milan to put up a low-block, could Martial have helped opening up the defense? Osimhen thrives with space, so essentially by not giving him any, the odds of him scoring are very slim, although he did in the end.
 

sullydnl

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Fair enough. Odd how he went for Weghorst who is an incredibly bad header of the ball if he wanted to play like that here :lol: I guess we'll see in the summer who he wants
A 6ft 6 bad header of the ball is still better than nothing I suppose, though opting to use him as a #10 in some games is perhaps telling in terms of what he has actually offered.

Still, beats having to resort to using Harry Maguire as an auxillary striker to get that aerial presence up front, as we did against Sociedad when desparately chasing a goal.

Our attack generally lacks aerial threat and box threat, two of several areas we'll hopefully address this summer with whoever we sign.
 

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Martial excels in link-up play and will do it with Eriksen, Antony and Bruno if Rashford is doubled up on. That's the beauty with Martial. His effective one-twos, close control, strength and hold-up play can easily carve a defense open in a split second. Osimhen, on the other hand, does not have his close control or quick feet and will instead camp in their box waiting for a cross. We would absolutely have more goals with him in the team this season, but is it worth €150m than another striker who could be just as efficient, but also better in other areas?
Oh I don't think he's worth 150m by any stretch of the imagination, but I think you're overstating what Martial does vs what Osimhen does. Their records speak for themselves and Martial has never shown he can be just as efficient in Osimhens strengths.

Take 1 v 1 Martial had this weekend - ok we scored the rebound, but you'd probably bet your house Osimhen is scoring that. Martial also had a header that he fluffed, that judging by Osimhens goal today, he'd have buried too. You may value Martials link up play more and think it will eek out performances elsewhere, but I think we create more than enough without him and need direct goal involvements more.
 

ATXRedDevil

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Assuming we had all our players fit - Do you think we would beat Milan today?

Kvaratskhelia is a massive talent, indeed, but he isn't even top 10 dribblers in Serie A. Additionally, he didn't really have a particularly good game, so Rashford might have been way more effective.

The same question could also be asked the other way around; because Osimhen was camping in the box, forcing Milan to put up a low-block, could Martial have helped opening up the defense? Osimhen thrives with space, so essentially by not giving him any, the odds of him scoring are very slim, although he did in the end.
Kvaradona not one of the 10 best dribblers in Serie A?? :lol::lol::lol:
 

ti vu

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Assuming we had all our players fit - Do you think we would beat Milan today?

Kvaratskhelia is a massive talent, indeed, but he isn't even top 10 dribblers in Serie A. Additionally, he didn't really have a particularly good game, so Rashford might have been way more effective.

The same question could also be asked the other way around; because Osimhen was camping in the box, forcing Milan to put up a low-block, could Martial have helped opening up the defense? Osimhen thrives with space, so essentially by not giving him any, the odds of him scoring are very slim, although he did in the end.
Please prove the bolded part.

If we have all the players, and ETH decided to play stupidly like Spalletti then no, we don't beat that team not playing to our strength. ETH team doesn't shy to put in crosses. ETH is not that dumb, one dimensional.

Rashford getting doubled teamed like this and against a low block would easily seeing him marked out of the game. Rashford being most effective when there is space in behind to run into off the ball, or kick and run.

Osinhem is not only thriving with space. He can cause havoc in crowded box with the right approach. Very good poacher do that. You don't drop deep and have nobody in the box when your team already able to pin back opposition. Benzema, Kane would stay in the box in that situation too. Even fox in the box like Gabriel Jesus does that. Martial does not fancy himself in the box, and that prevented him to develop into a proper CF couple years back when he's still fit and healthy. There is a reason Ole brought in Cavani who played Martial out of the team.
 

ti vu

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You don't use stats in good faith.

For example NDombele in top 10 in that list. He made less than 1 dribbling per game. Play 660 minutes.

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/321389/Show/Tanguy-Ndombélé

There is no quantity about what kind of dribbling he does. Attacking or dribbling backward.

How about this?

https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/42/stats/season/17697/players/won_contest/champions-league-players

Why Kvaratskhelia here in CL is higher?

What metric to quantity these dribbling stats?
 

KikiDaKats

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Some of the qualities people are attributing to Osimhen is falsehood.

I’m beginning to think his biggest supporters on this forum don’t watch him enough to shut down the opinionof people with doubts.

You can’t have a clumsy hold up and people equate it to being very good, that first contact has to be pristine. He has a particular street fighter quality that is unmatched and majority of his goals are borne from that.

Whether he will fit well at United is up in the air till he gets here. With Bruno and Eriksen I think he will be ace but the wide forwards don’t look a good marriage.
 

sullydnl

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A key thing about dribbling stats is that they are impacted if, say, you are so obviously good at dribbling that teams set up tactically to try to address that specific problem. As Milan did today, for example.

Nonethless, as per Fbref, no player in Serie A has attempted more take-ons than Kvara this season. And in terms of the players who beat him per 90, only one comes remotely close in terms of total attempts (145 vs 116), indicating that relatively limited minutes have skewed the per 90 metric in their favour.

Stats are great but sometimes watching a player play should prompt you to wonder if any additional context is needed.
 

ti vu

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A key thing about dribbling stats is that they are impacted if, say, you are so obviously good at dribbling that teams set up tactically to try to address that specific problem. As Milan did today, for example.

Nonethless, as per Fbref, no player in Serie A has attempted more take-ons than Kvara this season. And in terms of the players who beat him per 90, only one comes remotely close in terms of total attempts (145 vs 116), indicating that relatively limited minutes have skewed the per 90 metric in their favour.

Stats are great but sometimes watching a player play should prompt you to wonder if any additional context is needed.
https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/47/stats/season/17664/players/won_contest/premier-league-players

That site is using some non context math to calculate their rating, because when Saka is not even in top 30 of PL in your league, you're sure as hell know that you're analyzing the game wrongly.
 

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ti vu

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Hmm, wouldn't be so sure. FBref says the same regarding Saka. 68th percentile for take-ons, and whenever I watch him, he doesn't really dribble a lot.
I won't claim I watched that many Arsenal game, but he's fairly one of the better dribbler (not just volume stat padding). Not gonna drag out you say, I say, so let's look at how fallible the algorithm this website can be:

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/402596/Show/Elliot-Anderson

In top 10 dribbler per 90 minute in PL from the site you used. He had a little under 200 minutes in the league. 0.3 dribbles per game from Whoscored. Somehow he's ranked 8 in that list with 33.3% dribbling percentage.

https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/47/stats/season/17664/players/won_contest/premier-league-players
 
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CM

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Osimhen's knack of scoring headers is impressive. No idea if we have a realistic chance of signing him in the summer but that's one trait that would be massively useful in this team. That said, a goalscorer of any kind wouldn't go amiss!
 

zaafi

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I won't claim I watched that many Arsenal game, but he's fairly one of the better dribbler (not just volume stat padding). Not gonna drag out you say, I say, so let's look at how fallible the algorithm this website can be:

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/402596/Show/Elliot-Anderson

In top 10 dribbler per 90 minute in PL from the site you used. He had a little under 200 minutes in the league. 0.3 dribbles per game from Whoscored. Somehow he's ranked 8 in that list with 33.3% dribbling percentage.

https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/47/stats/season/17664/players/won_contest/premier-league-players
The stats seem correct, but I agree with you that players with that small amount of minutes shouldn't be there. At the very least they should add a filter so we can choose "show only with 1000 mins played" or something similar.
 

Rozay

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Here we are again with people who watch football matches now being confused by some numbers that they read elsewhere.

Kvaratshkelia is obviously a good dribbler. We can see that when we watch him. What are we supposed to do with info like ‘Kvara is in the 39th percentile of dribblers?’

I know this is a sensitive topic for many so kinda just winding people up here!
 

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Here we are again with people who watch football matches now being confused by some numbers that they read elsewhere.

Kvaratshkelia is obviously a good dribbler. We can see that when we watch him. What are we supposed to do with info like ‘Kvara is in the 39th percentile of dribblers?’

I know this is a sensitive topic for many so kinda just winding people up here!
Also take on % kind of sucks as a stat for me because in any more possession based dominant team, every decent player is going to be looking to pass and move a good bit and not just take on a defender every time they get the ball. Even Vinicius, who is one of the best 1v1 players in the world, isn't sitting there running at people constantly.
 

Rozay

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Also take on % kind of sucks as a stat for me because in any more possession based dominant team, every decent player is going to be looking to pass and move a good bit and not just take on a defender every time they get the ball. Even Vinicius, who is one of the best 1v1 players in the world, isn't sitting there running at people constantly.
Indeed. That said, I will still stand by my belief that you can see if a footballer is good at dribbling by having watched him play football regularly. Having to go and read whether a footballer you watch is good at dribbling will never not seem bizarre to me. You mentioned Vinicius for example. Any nonsense that says ‘he is in the 60th percentile for dribbling’ or ‘statistically he is a poor dribbler’ or whatever would instantly be disregarded by me, personally. I am certain that Harry Maguire is good in the air and Wan-Bissaka is good at tackling and I would expect any numbers to reflect that, but if they do not, then I will treat any such numbers as bollocks.

I’m now officially an OG I guess talking some ‘back in my day’ stuff, I can see that I’m looked at as some sort of dinosaur with my approach! Maybe one day I’ll get into the statistical microanalysis of the game but I’m just not there yet. Perhaps if I were a scout or sports scientist then I would bit as a fan I don’t think I need to, not yet anyway.

Anyway, apologies for bringing my old man anti-stats moaning in here!
 

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Disagree massively.

His hold up and bringing players in is decent enough and having someone like Bruno, Eriksen and Antony (similar to what kharva was doing today, cutting in and whipping a cross in) playing crosses into.the box like today would give us so many more goals than we currently have. We have no one who occupies or hits the box, Rashford still proves that's not his forte and Martial is no different.
How many headed goals does Haaland have for City and how many headed goals does Osimhen have for Napoli in their respective leagues, start there.

Then understand that Rashford isn't going to become a balanced wide forward like Grealish or Mahrez for City, or Martinelli or Saka for Arsenal or even Son. Marcus is a goal scorer plain and simple now. He's getting into positions entering the box. If Martial was fit, he'd make the difference between easily in 3rd place if not at least 2nd. Martial would easily be around 8 to 10 goals in the league by now.

But there is a clear difference between how Martial plays and how the team plays, compared to Osimhen plays and how he plays at Napoli.

I'm not disputing that Osimhen is a very good goal scorer, but what I am correctly questioning is how he would fit within the United squad and how that meshes with Marcus and Antony, assuming they are first choice wide players with Garnacho, Sancho, and I guess you can throw Pellestri and Amad in there too. Those players don't spam crosses and hope you can make a good run and good headed attempt for a goal.

While they have the ability to do so (crosses) and have done so, it's not their first thought of head up and cross into space, just not their thing. They all make contributions going into the box and looking for the runs. Making the extra pass for a better opportunity.

Unless United get strong technical players out wide who can cross a ball and pass in general from anywhere into space and have a Haaland to aim for, Osimhen will require even more adjustment and compromise to how they have been setup to play by EtH.

That is why keeping Martial (fit and available) is important and having a reliable starter health wise who is an asset for the team across multiple phases is key.

I'd rather have a Wayne Rooney type player come into CF than Osimhen. That's a Muani, Benzema, even Alvarez at City, Watkins at Villa, Kane...those would be more than sufficient and possibly with the exception of Kane, 2/3rds the cost plus much better continuity of play than Osimhen.
 
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Too many on here are conflating Osimhen's utilizing his aerial prowess with an inability to thrive without crosses. He is actually the type of striker who would also pretty much thrive on through balls and balls into feet in the box. In that aspect he is very similar to a Halaand. He comes very alive in the 18 yard box. Thanks to a hunger to press like a weghorst plus teachable natural goal scorer instinct.

As for our style of play currently. We currently don't have a single forward who knows how to consistently make near post and far post runs, for us to utilize crosses in the box. Nor one who makes it their domain. So we simply don't play that way. But if we DID have one. Ten Hag showed at Ajax he loves that crossing option a lot. And rather than our wide forwards benfiting most from link up play, they would benefit from a striker taking markers away from them with near or far post runs if they played alongside an osimhen type of forward.
 

sullydnl

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Sometimes the way people talk about a possible Osimhen/Rashford combination makes it sound like a) they're not the very disimilar players they are or b) it's only possible or good to have one goal threat in the box at any given time, as if Osimhen being in the box automatically means Rashford has to spend all game out wide crossing the ball into him.
 

Isotope

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Sometimes the way people talk about a possible Osimhen/Rashford combination makes it sound like a) they're not the very disimilar players they are or b) it's only possible or good to have one goal threat in the box at any given time, as if Osimhen being in the box automatically means Rashford has to spend all game out wide crossing the ball into him.
It's more like people see Rashford as Ronaldo's lite. Would Ronaldo look better with Haaland or Benzema type? Which combo that makes the team hold the game better?
 
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ti vu

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It's more like people see Rashford as Ronaldo's lite. Would Ronaldo look better with Haaland or Benzema type? Which combo that makes the team hold the game better?
Using simple logic, a Ronaldo lite would require an upgraded version of Benzema which does not exist. Martial even at his best is still a Frankenstein downgrade version of Benzema, hence at their previous best, something still missing in Martial Rashford partnership. You still need someone like Cavani to show them how to do it another way.

I have my preference for Kane because I think instead of modeling after Ronaldo, Rashford can just stay one dimensional like Son, with Kane shoulder the volume of poachers goals.
 

Isotope

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Using simple logic, a Ronaldo lite would require an upgraded version of Benzema which does not exist. Martial even at his best is still a Frankenstein downgrade version of Benzema, hence at their previous best, something still missing in Martial Rashford partnership. You still need someone like Cavani to show them how to do it another way.

I have my preference for Kane because I think instead of modeling after Ronaldo, Rashford can just stay one dimensional like Son, with Kane shoulder the volume of poachers goals.
We may watch different Son, because Rashford isn't anything close to Son.
 

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Too many on here are conflating Osimhen's utilizing his aerial prowess with an inability to thrive without crosses. He is actually the type of striker who would also pretty much thrive on through balls and balls into feet in the box. In that aspect he is very similar to a Halaand. He comes very alive in the 18 yard box. Thanks to a hunger to press like a weghorst plus teachable natural goal scorer instinct.

As for our style of play currently. We currently don't have a single forward who knows how to consistently make near post and far post runs, for us to utilize crosses in the box. Nor one who makes it their domain. So we simply don't play that way. But if we DID have one. Ten Hag showed at Ajax he loves that crossing option a lot. And rather than our wide forwards benfiting most from link up play, they would benefit from a striker taking markers away from them with near or far post runs if they played alongside an osimhen type of forward.
Spot on
 

Erik the Red

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How many headed goals does Haaland have for City and how many headed goals does Osimhen have for Napoli in their respective leagues, start there.

Then understand that Rashford isn't going to become a balanced wide forward like Grealish or Mahrez for City, or Martinelli or Saka for Arsenal or even Son. Marcus is a goal scorer plain and simple now. He's getting into positions entering the box. If Martial was fit, he'd make the difference between easily in 3rd place if not at least 2nd. Martial would easily be around 8 to 10 goals in the league by now.

But there is a clear difference between how Martial plays and how the team plays, compared to Osimhen plays and how he plays at Napoli.

I'm not disputing that Osimhen is a very good goal scorer, but what I am correctly questioning is how he would fit within the United squad and how that meshes with Marcus and Antony, assuming they are first choice wide players with Garnacho, Sancho, and I guess you can throw Pellestri and Amad in there too. Those players don't spam crosses and hope you can make a good run and good headed attempt for a goal.

While they have the ability to do so (crosses) and have done so, it's not their first thought of head up and cross into space, just not their thing. They all make contributions going into the box and looking for the runs. Making the extra pass for a better opportunity.

Unless United get strong technical players out wide who can cross a ball and pass in general from anywhere into space and have a Haaland to aim for, Osimhen will require even more adjustment and compromise to how they have been setup to play by EtH.

That is why keeping Martial (fit and available) is important and having a reliable starter health wise who is an asset for the team across multiple phases is key.

I'd rather have a Wayne Rooney type player come into CF than Osimhen. That's a Muani, Benzema, even Alvarez at City, Watkins at Villa, Kane...those would be more than sufficient and possibly with the exception of Kane, 2/3rds the cost plus much better continuity of play than Osimhen.
I think Antony crossed far more at Ajax than he does here. When you see Anyony cut inside and go for a curler in to the far corner, at Ajax he used to cut inside onto his left foot slightly earlier, and curl it in to the bus for Haller to head home. At United, there is no target for him to aim for, so he has to shoot himself. Having a target man like Osimhen would allow him to mix it up, and I think he would provide loads of assets for Osimhen.

I'm not sure how Rashford and Osimhen would mesh, but I'm sure ETH would find a way to utilise two class players, and get them to complement one another. Even if it's just making dummy runs to drag defenders, I think they will certainly help each other. Then you also have Bruno and Eriksen providing through balls as well, so I think Osimhen would score lots of goals. A world class goal scorer would make the difference between where we are now and competing for the biggest prizes.
 
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Sometimes the way people talk about a possible Osimhen/Rashford combination makes it sound like a) they're not the very disimilar players they are or b) it's only possible or good to have one goal threat in the box at any given time, as if Osimhen being in the box automatically means Rashford has to spend all game out wide crossing the ball into him.
Exactly. It makes little sense. Its like the don't get the concept of having more room due to a mega goal thread occupying two players at all times centrally. Which is what a high end 9 would provide us. Especially one who does all the good things Wegorst does in terms of pressing, but just with pure pace and an actual hunger and eye for goal....