NBA 2022-2023

[Ladron de redcafe]

Agree to strongly, strongly, disagree. No judging, but did you see MJ play in real time? I was in my teens during his threepeat/baseball/threepeat years and there has never been, and will likely never be, an athlete that dominant over that period of time. He would have like won 8 straight titles if not for the break. He was an all time scorer and defender. He never lost a finals series. Ever.

Peak for peak, it isn’t much of a debate. There isn’t an enormous chasm, but there is not-insignificant daylight between them. Jordan also never had the lowlights that Lebron had in 2011 against Dallas (or anywhere near underperforming that badly). He was undefeated with homecourt advantage, and as soon as Pippen matured into a star-level athlete in 1990, Jordan’s Bulls were competitive until his retirement, losing only the 1990 game 7 against Detroit (when Jordan was the ONLY person from Chicago to show up, as his 2nd and 3rd best players combined for 4/27 shooting (yes, you’re reading that correctly), and then the Orlando series in 95, when Jordan unretired and had played only 17 games in the regular season.

He led the 1998 Bulls who had the lowest playoff scoring supporting case in NBA history to the title (60.8PPG) and his previous title in 97 was the 3rd lowest scoring supporting cast ever with 61.5PPG.
He had the best game score for an NBA finals series ever with 32.8 in 1991, which dwarfs the best finals Lebron ever had (27.7).

He has a higher BPM AND win-share average than Lebron James in the regular season, playoffs, and finals. He was also a much better defense player, making all NBA 1st team defense 9 times, almost double Lebron’s 5, and of course won a DPOY, something that Lebron never managed to do.

1-Year Post-season BPM: 1st of all time
3-Year Post-Season BPM: 1st of all time
5-Year Post-Season BPM: 1st of all time
3-Year Post-Season 1st of all time
All time ws/48: 1st all time (Lebron 8th)
All time Playoffs ws/48: 1st all time
All time PER: 1st all time
All time Playoff PER: 1st of all time
All time Finals PER (min 1k minutes played): 1st of all time (Lebron 4th)
All time playoff BPM: 1st all time
All time Finals BPM(min 1k mins): 1st of all time
All time Finals Gamescore: 1st of all time

In most of these, Lebron isn't even 2nd.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Everything in this post is wrong. Literally everything. Respectfully.

Secondly, Michael Jordan has more titles, more MVPs, more finals MVPs, more defensive honours and way more league leading stat honours than LeBron and he played like half the seasons (not quite but it will be). So it's not just about more finals wins. Not to mention that his shoes sell more than all the current NBA players' shoes combined, some 20 years after he retired. So I'm not sure how they're even comparable in a marketing sense as you've stated.

And the bolded is what makes the gap pretty stark. Lebron is an incredible player, but he's going to fall short in all these major accolades you mentioned while playing much longer to accomplish less. If you're interested, here's the count for the ones you just mentioned:

	Jordan	Lebron
FMVPs	6	4
MVPs	5	4
Scoring Title/Assist Leader	10	2
All Defense 1st team	9	5

Jordan got all of those in his 11 full seasons with Chicago (13 full seasons total), while Lebron is currently playing his 20th season.

 

[elmo]

Most important stat of all, apart from Hakeem, almost every one else didn’t win anything in MJ’s era.

LeBron’s era, almost everyone got theirs.

 

[JPRouve]

Do people give Jordan bonus points for doing it with the team that drafted him? Personally I do and that's why I have more respects for the likes of Giannis or Curry than James. James is great, he is mesmerizing, he is an incredible playmaker, the way he can take over games puts him in a different category alongside the likes of Jordan, Bird, Duncan or Olajuwon but it doesn't put him over them. Now longevity is something that I put to his credit but I don't know if that's enough.

PS: The players I mentioned are the ones that I have seen a fair bit, there may be others.

 

[Real Name]

Still remember the Decision shenanigans.
That was cringe as fek.

 

[JPRouve]

I don't watch his teams religiously but he has a good reputation around the league as a tactician and for his man management. How do you guys rate Ty Lue?

He is rumoured to step down from the Clippers and I'm trying to replace Finch.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Most important stat of all, apart from Hakeem, almost every one else didn’t win anything in MJ’s era.

LeBron’s era, almost everyone got theirs.

And Olajuwan also benefited from Jordan leaving in 1993, because prior to that Houston hadn't won. They promptly won the title in 94 and then repeated as a 6th seed, as Hakeem faced an outplayed the following big men all in succession:

1st Rd: Karl Malone
2nd Rd: Charles Barkley
Conf Finals: David Robinson (one of the most embarrassing head to head matchups in NBA history)
Finals: Shaq

As far as Lebron goes, I think some years can be held against him while others not so. I think that the 2009 and 2010 Cavs (as the number 1 seed) should have challenged and definitely made a final, but it wasn't as if they were stacked.

2011 definitely should be held against him and the 2/4 win ratio there wasn't what he was expecting when he said "this is going to be easy" before counting on his anticipated title wins ("not five, not six, not seven").

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Do people give Jordan bonus points for doing it with the team that drafted him? Personally I do and that's why I have more respects for the likes of Giannis or Curry than James. James is great, he is mesmerizing, he is an incredible playmaker, the way he can take over games puts him in a different category alongside the likes of Jordan, Bird, Duncan or Olajuwon but it doesn't put him over them. Now longevity is something that I put to his credit but I don't know if that's enough.

PS: The players I mentioned are the ones that I have seen a fair bit, there may be others.

Bird took a 29 win team to 61 teams and made them immediate contenders overnight
Hakeem dragged a pedestrian Rockets team to a title.
Duncan made his impact immediately. While people were predicting that the first post-Jordan title would go to Utah, Los Angeles, or Indiana, he swept the Lakers and was immediately solidified himself as an all time great in 99.

I do put stock into what all the players you mentioned did. Because of the lower mobility and flexibility with contracts back then, you HAD to figure out a way to make things work. You could not blame team chemistry and jump on to the next team where you could join or recruit other all time greats to play with at their peaks.

When someone is through with a cycle (as with the 2014 Heat), a player could simply leave and join the newest elite players in the league in another team, rather than have to deal with a largely flawed squad of aging teammates and try your best to grab a title with.

 

[RobinLFC]

Most important stat of all, apart from Hakeem, almost every one else didn’t win anything in MJ’s era.

LeBron’s era, almost everyone got theirs.

So we're arbitrarily starting MJ's era in 1991 while he got MVP and DPOY in '88? Ignore that MJ never had competition like the Warriors dynasty between 91 and 98?

Once again, all the arguments above are part of the reason I also have Jordan over LeBron, but as always with these discussion, it's also cherry-picking your stats to prove your point. There are countless categories where James is #1 and MJ also isn't even #2 as well, so all those things prove very little imo.

 

[JPRouve]

Bird took a 29 win team to 61 teams and made them immediate contenders overnight
Hakeem dragged a pedestrian Rockets team to a title.
Duncan made his impact immediately. While people were predicting that the first post-Jordan title would go to Utah, Los Angeles, or Indiana, he swept the Lakers and was immediately solidified himself as an all time great in 99.

I do put stock into what all the players you mentioned did. Because of the lower mobility and flexibility with contracts back then, you HAD to figure out a way to make things work. You could not blame team chemistry and jump on to the next team where you could join or recruit other all time greats to play with at their peaks.

When someone is through with a cycle (as with the 2014 Heat), a player could simply leave and join the newest elite players in the league in another team, rather than have to deal with a largely flawed squad of aging teammates and try your best to grab a title with.

That's exactly what I had in mind both in terms of immediate impact but also in terms of the grind they accepted. But to James credit there is a massive mitigator, he entered the league as an 18 years old, he was not polished but still dominated while the others spent years in college and were more mature players.

I really think that it's important to say that James in legitimately in that conversation, he is one of the greats. I just don't think that it is as clear as the media wants to portray it.

 

[Bepi]

Fooooolks…. Pleaaaaaase! These are debates for the Summer, we are in the midst of the action now. Thanks!

 

[Real Name]

I don't watch his teams religiously but he has a good reputation around the league as a tactician and for his man management. How do you guys rate Ty Lue?

He is rumoured to step down from the Clippers and I'm trying to replace Finch.

Yes, quit the Messi - Ronaldo debate in here people and answer the question, I too want to know this.

 

[JuriM]

https://clips.twitch.tv/GiftedFilthyCroquetteRuleFive-flTQSBAZCxVX8OTR

Memphis , holy shit what a gum flapping weak ass muppets. So apparently, guy in a hoodie is a Jack Nicholson`s son, he afterwards told security to leave them alone as they didnt do shit.

 

[WI_Red]

So we're arbitrarily starting MJ's era in 1991 while he got MVP and DPOY in '88? Ignore that MJ never had competition like the Warriors dynasty between 91 and 98?

Once again, all the arguments above are part of the reason I also have Jordan over LeBron, but as always with these discussion, it's also cherry-picking your stats to prove your point. There are countless categories where James is #1 and MJ also isn't even #2 as well, so all those things prove very little imo.

Wait a second, slow your roll down with this "take". Do no mistake the Bulls domination with the league being a cakewalk.

In 91 they defeated the Lakers in the finals who ran out Magic/Worthy/Scott/and a young Divac. They swept the Knicks (Ewing/Starks/Oakley/Jackson), dropped one game to Barkley's Sixers, and then Pistons (defending champs with 2 HOF's in Isaiah and Dumars),

In 92 they were pushed hard by the Knicks and Cleveland (my second favorite team as a kid. Anyone else play Tecmo Basketball on NES? Mark Price was a god), before taking down The Blazers (Drexler/Porter/Robinson).

In 93 It was the Knicks who pushed them before that epic series with the Suns. Now that was a fun team to watch!

and so on. Next comes the Hakeem years and then upon MJ's return you have Stockton/Malon, Robinson and the Spurs and so forth. The point is that the bulls were not some whale amongst minnows, they were challenged by teams often running out 2 HOFers in their prime in every round.

 

[charlton66]

I didn't say he has a strong case either - so questionable who you are arguing against here.

And yeah marketability when I typed that I was more thinking about how the NBA has "rebrandished" its image during the LeBron (and social media) era. Marketing personal brand wise, no one comes close to Jordan.

I'll give you social media. LeBron has more followers (I think) than any other player. However, in terms of changing its image (less physicality, more 3 point shooting etc...) that's mostly Stephen Curry.

 

[JPRouve]

If the Warriors are the reason behind James claim to be superior to Jordan, does that make Steph Curry the natural winner and undisputed GOAT?

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

So we're arbitrarily starting MJ's era in 1991 while he got MVP and DPOY in '88? Ignore that MJ never had competition like the Warriors dynasty between 91 and 98?

Once again, all the arguments above are part of the reason I also have Jordan over LeBron, but as always with these discussion, it's also cherry-picking your stats to prove your point. There are countless categories where James is #1 and MJ also isn't even #2 as well, so all those things prove very little imo.

Not the main categories or main advanced metrics used, he isn't. PER and win shares aren't arbitrary. They're the most widely used advanced metrics for statistical impact and team impact, respectively.

As far as your first point goes, anyone with an iota of knowledge when it comes to basketball is well aware of how awful the 88 Bulls team was. What does Jordan excelling individually have to do with him having a competitive team? That didn't happen until 1990.

 

[Andrade]

And the bolded is what makes the gap pretty stark. Lebron is an incredible player, but he's going to fall short in all these major accolades you mentioned while playing much longer to accomplish less. If you're interested, here's the count for the ones you just mentioned:

	Jordan	Lebron
FMVPs	6	4
MVPs	5	4
Scoring Title/Assist Leader	10	2
All Defense 1st team	9	5

Jordan got all of those in his 11 full seasons with Chicago (13 full seasons total), while Lebron is currently playing his 20th season.

What do you think about the Lakers chances this season? It's pretty open. If they go all the way do you think that changes the narrative re Jordan v Lebron?

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

If the Warriors are the reason behind James claim to be superior to Jordan, does that make Steph Curry the natural winner and undisputed GOAT?

I never ceased to be amazed by that "logic"
Steph Curry dragged Klay Thompson and Draymond Green to 73 wins while Lebron couldn't go anywhere near that with Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving.

As far as talent goes, there's a strong argument that the Cavs were more stacked. And they definitely were the most expensively assembled squad ever at that point in time. But just as Wade and Bosh regressed when they had to cater their games around an all time great, so too did Love and Kyrie.

That isn't an argument to make it favor of Lebron. It's literally an argument against him.

 

[Andrade]

So we're arbitrarily starting MJ's era in 1991 while he got MVP and DPOY in '88? Ignore that MJ never had competition like the Warriors dynasty between 91 and 98?

Once again, all the arguments above are part of the reason I also have Jordan over LeBron, but as always with these discussion, it's also cherry-picking your stats to prove your point. There are countless categories where James is #1 and MJ also isn't even #2 as well, so all those things prove very little imo.

Which stats? He's named some pretty important ones, that's not cherry picking. Which ones are you referring to? Any that aren't longevity stats?

Also, in MJ's era there were plenty of good teams but there weren't superteams because players didn't jump around trying to form them, because of the differences in free agency rules. Lebron was actually the first guy to form a superteam (with all the guys in their primes) so he brought the souped-up KD Warriors on himself as I believe that the rest of the NBA followed his example.

I mean Lebron formed a team with two other top 5 picks from his draft. If Jordan was able to do that, he could potentially have formed a team with Barkley and Olajuwon. How many titles would that team have won? I'd wager more than the 2 that Miami managed.

 

[altodevil]

I never ceased to be amazed by that "logic"
Steph Curry dragged Klay Thompson and Draymond Green to 73 wins while Lebron couldn't go anywhere near that with Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving.

As far as talent goes, there's a strong argument that the Cavs were more stacked. And they definitely were the most expensively assembled squad ever at that point in time. But just as Wade and Bosh regressed when they had to cater their games around an all time great, so too did Love and Kyrie.

That isn't an argument to make it favor of Lebron. It's literally an argument against him.

Christ

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

What do you think about the Lakers chances this season? It's pretty open. If they go all the way do you think that changes the narrative re Jordan v Lebron?

I'm not sure why it would, to be honest. It would entrench him ahead of Kareem and that case would be more clearcut than it is at the moment.

But barring an incredible 2 year stretch seeing Lebron pass Jordan in the major accolades (MVPs and FMVPs and titles), I don't see it because their peaks are already over. One was simply better.

The longevity argument could override the peak argument if Lebron passes Jordan in accolades, which I don't see happening.

 

[JPRouve]

I never ceased to be amazed by that "logic"
Steph Curry dragged Klay Thompson and Draymond Green to 73 wins while Lebron couldn't go anywhere near that with Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving.

As far as talent goes, there's a strong argument that the Cavs were more stacked. And they definitely were the most expensively assembled squad ever at that point in time. But just as Wade and Bosh regressed when they had to cater their games around an all time great, so too did Love and Kyrie.

That isn't an argument to make it favor of Lebron. It's literally an argument against him.

The bolded part is a bit of an overstatement.

But yeah, the Warriors aren't an argument in favor of James because they put someone else above him in the conversation. In fact last year puts Curry dangerously close to the top in my opinion because he led his team to a title with less help than James ever had.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

The bolded part is a bit of an overstatement.

But yeah, the Warriors aren't an argument in favor of James because they put someone else above him in the conversation. In fact last year puts Curry dangerously close to the top in my opinion because he led his team to a title with less help than James ever had.

Change "dragged" to "lead" if its more palatable.
I agree for the most part with the point you made. The 2022 title was something that Curry did that Lebron hasn't been able to do, but at the same time, if that title carries more weight, the 2017 and 2018 titles would carry a little less weight than Lebron’s Miami titles.

It sort of balances out, for me. And Lebron has had a much better regular season career, with more accolades. Atleast that's the way I see it.

 

[RobinLFC]

Wait a second, slow your roll down with this "take". Do no mistake the Bulls domination with the league being a cakewalk.

I don't - but none of the teams you mentioned came close to the Warriors dynasty (who LeBron won a ring against as well, by the way).

I'll give you social media. LeBron has more followers (I think) than any other player. However, in terms of changing its image (less physicality, more 3 point shooting etc...) that's mostly Stephen Curry.

Nah I was more referring to his role in making it a global brand, expanding its reach in Europe and Asia, making it a huge success during the social media era, ... Not specifically changing the way how basketball is played in the NBA.

As far as your first point goes, anyone with an iota of knowledge when it comes to basketball is well aware of how awful the 88 Bulls team was. What does Jordan excelling individually have to do with him having a competitive team? That didn't happen until 1990.

But why can MJ's 88-90 period easily be dismissed by having an awful team while it cannot be used for some of LeBron's seasons in which he dragged awful teams to the playoffs or the Finals? I don't disagree with you, it just goes both ways.

I never ceased to be amazed by that "logic"
Steph Curry dragged Klay Thompson and Draymond Green to 73 wins while Lebron couldn't go anywhere near that with Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving.

As far as talent goes, there's a strong argument that the Cavs were more stacked. And they definitely were the most expensively assembled squad ever at that point in time. But just as Wade and Bosh regressed when they had to cater their games around an all time great, so too did Love and Kyrie.

That isn't an argument to make it favor of Lebron. It's literally an argument against him.

It's so hard to take anyone seriously when they have takes like this.

 

[RobinLFC]

Which stats? He's named some pretty important ones, that's not cherry picking. Which ones are you referring to? Any that aren't longevity stats?

Why shouldn't those matter in a GOAT debate, because you think so or any other reason for that?

The best player ever doesn't always equal greatest of all-time, otherwise Ronaldinho might be included in football debates.

And, once again, I also have MJ over LeBron. I'm already tired of having to play devil's advocate here for him.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

I don't - but none of the teams you mentioned came close to the Warriors dynasty (who LeBron won a ring against as well, by the way).


Nah I was more referring to his role in making it a global brand, expanding its reach in Europe and Asia, making it a huge success during the social media era, ... Not specifically changing the way how basketball is played in the NBA.


But why can MJ's 88-90 period easily be dismissed by having an awful team while it cannot be used for some of LeBron's seasons in which he dragged awful teams to the playoffs or the Finals? I don't disagree with you, it just goes both ways.


It's so hard to take anyone seriously when they have takes like this.

Like 2011? Or 2014? Because that aren't excusable. Comparing those squads with Jordan's 1988 squad is so laughable. Its borderline trolling.

Regarding your last sentence, nobody is taking you seriously into his thread mate, so right back at you. Continue to tell us how much more marketable Lebron is than Jordan and how "the stats" show that he's a better player

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Why shouldn't those matter in a GOAT debate, because you think so or any other reason for that?

The best player ever doesn't always equal greatest of all-time, otherwise Ronaldinho might be included in football debates.

And, once again, I also have MJ over LeBron. I'm already tired of having to play devil's advocate here for him.

Again with a strawman. I don't believe anyone said any particular stat (including longevity stats) shouldn't be considered. But some matter a lot more than others.

And the most prominent advanced metrics all favor one player. That's without mentioning accolades.

 

[giorno]

Using DPOTY and 1st team all defence awards to claim one player was a better defender than the other is kinda funny. I agree MJ at his best was clear of LeBron, but he really wasn't the better defender, not even close. Peak LeBron was basically a supercharged Draymond Green on defence, the guy wasn't just an awesome 1on1 and help defender, he was a defensive genius and floor general

 

[JPRouve]

Change "dragged" to "lead" if its more palatable.
I agree for the most part with the point you made. The 2022 title was something that Curry did that Lebron hasn't been able to do, but at the same time, if that title carries more weight, the 2017 and 2018 titles would carry a little less weight than Lebron’s Miami titles.

It sort of balances out, for me. And Lebron has had a much better regular season career, with more accolades. Atleast that's the way I see it.

I think I agree with you. I don't put Curry above James, it's just that the arguments in favor of James make little sense and some are even damaging.

Personally the reason I have James, Jordan and Bird as a trio above everyone else is comestic, I have seen them forcibly takeover games like no one else, it's not fair to the likes of Curry, Olajuwon or Duncan because their strength is that their floor was as high as it gets but that's how I feel.

But if I'm being perfectly honest, I don't want to rank them. The covid ESPN classic era made me appreciate all of them a lot and they are all great in their own ways.

 

[RobinLFC]

Like 2011? Or 2014? Because that aren't excusable. Comparing those squads with Jordan's 1988 squad is so laughable. Its borderline trolling.

2011 and 2014 obviously aren't but those are also the main reasons being held against him by a lot of people, including me. In 2007 he had a worse squad than Jordan in '88-'90.

Regarding your last sentence, nobody is taking you seriously into his thread mate, so right back at you. Continue to tell us how much more marketable Lebron is than Jordan and how "the stats" show that he's a better player

Okay then no use to take it any further. I already explained above I used the wrong word when I was thinking about marketability, and there are plenty of stats on the basis whereof someone might argue that LeBron is a GREATER, not better, player than LeBron.

 

[RobinLFC]

But why can MJ's 88-90 period easily be dismissed by having an awful team while it cannot be used for some of LeBron's seasons in which he dragged awful teams to the playoffs or the Finals?

Like 2011? Or 2014? Because that aren't excusable. Comparing those squads with Jordan's 1988 squad is so laughable. Its borderline trolling.

Reading that sentence of mine where I say he "dragged awful teams to the playoffs and Finals" and then trying to make it look like I'm talking about '11 or '14 is simply debating in bad faith, mate. It would be clear to any reasonable reader that those are not the years I was referring to. Have at it.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

2011 and 2014 obviously aren't but those are also the main reasons being held against him by a lot of people, including me. In 2007 he had a worse squad than Jordan in '88-'90.


Okay then no use to take it any further. I already explained above I used the wrong word when I was thinking about marketability, and there are plenty of stats on the basis whereof someone might argue that LeBron is a GREATER, not better, player than LeBron.

Not the relevant and widely used ones, as everyone pointed out. Because those already point to Jordan being ahead by a margin.

And no, the 2007 Cavs with Z weren't any worse than the 1988 Bulls but even if you think they were, I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Lebron didn't win a title with that team and his path to the finals weren't blocked by an all time great team. As you yourself admit, people do not hold that year against him. It's 2011 and 2014 which are a big stain and which Jordan didn't have.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

So much hype about the Celtics and now they have lost 2 games to this Hawks team. Not sure what to make of them anymore

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Reading that sentence of mine where I say he "dragged awful teams to the playoffs and Finals" and then trying to make it look like I'm talking about '11 or '14 is simply debating in bad faith, mate. It would be clear to any reasonable reader that those are not the years I was referring to. Have at it.

Stating something factually incorrect about stats favoring one guy and then accusing everyone of cherry picking when you're corrected is arguing in bad faith.

And again, not sure what you're harping about. I've yet to see one person in this thread say they hold that against him. So if 2007 was the season to which you're referring, you're simply making up non-existent viewpoints that you're responding to. Sounds a little insane.

 

[Bepi]

So much hype about the Celtics and now they have lost 2 games to this Hawks team. Not sure what to make of them anymore

We do not have to make anything, really, just wait and see … if they wake up & win then they’re good, if they keep sleeping & lose they’re sh*t. Closed this series, the next one starts at 0-0 so who cares.

 

[ExoduS]

No confidence here in the Nugs? I think they beat Suns in 7 with Durant having terrible 7th game. As far as Malone being a bad coach? I don't think so. Jokic is a blessing and a curse: Serbian national team coaches experienced that themselves. Impossible to have a substitute for him, unless you have level headed Cousins (who would have been all time great if not for terrible attitude). I actually think Malone finally figured out a lineup that can play without Jokic on the floor - but negative is that Gordon and Murray have to play a lot.

Suns have no defense and I think Denver will expose that.

 

[Andrade]

I'm not sure why it would, to be honest. It would entrench him ahead of Kareem and that case would be more clearcut than it is at the moment.

But barring an incredible 2 year stretch seeing Lebron pass Jordan in the major accolades (MVPs and FMVPs and titles), I don't see it because their peaks are already over. One was simply better.

The longevity argument could override the peak argument if Lebron passes Jordan in accolades, which I don't see happening.

Pretty much agree. Lebron will never catch MJ's peak but he can continue to add as much to his resume as possible to make a case.

 

[Andrade]

So much hype about the Celtics and now they have lost 2 games to this Hawks team. Not sure what to make of them anymore

They're still the favourites with the bookies but I hear this.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

I think I agree with you. I don't put Curry above James, it's just that the arguments in favor of James make little sense and some are even damaging.

Personally the reason I have James, Jordan and Bird as a trio above everyone else is comestic, I have seen them forcibly takeover games like no one else, it's not fair to the likes of Curry, Olajuwon or Duncan because their strength is that their floor was as high as it gets but that's how I feel.

But if I'm being perfectly honest, I don't want to rank them. The covid ESPN classic era made me appreciate all of them a lot and they are all great in their own ways.

I think Hakeem and Duncan do take over games and did so in their runs but it isnt as manifest because they dont go on the scoring binges the others do, so the sense that they're taking over games isn't there. But Duncan anchored the 2003 Spurs and completely took over game 6 against the Lakers in Staples and then the entire Nets series.

His near quadruple double with 20 points doesn't scream "offensive dominance" but that isn't what he's about.