Mason Mount | Confirmed

[TheRedHearted]

I can't "logically" give you an answer to the question of what my problem with using numbers is, because I never said that. My problem is with people who ONLY use numbers (you know, the thing that I said).

Liverpool hit big by using both numbers AND actual traditional scouting methods which is the only logical way to do things and indeed what all top clubs do to varying degrees of success.

In this example Howson doesn't understand enough about ten Hag's last Ajax set-up, nor am I convinced he has watched that much of Mason Mount to make an informed decision either way, be it positive or negative. If only because he has so many other ventures taking up his time and how prolific he is with the video output and everything that goes into that, it simply isn't possible to have watched the games through, coded them effectively and then watched the footage back with a team of people to develop any meaningful insight.

I can't "logically" give you an answer to the question of what my problem with using numbers is, because I never said that. My problem is with people who ONLY use numbers (you know, the thing that I said).

Liverpool hit big by using both numbers AND actual traditional scouting methods which is the only logical way to do things and indeed what all top clubs do to varying degrees of success.

In this example Howson doesn't understand enough about ten Hag's last Ajax set-up, nor am I convinced he has watched that much of Mason Mount to make an informed decision either way, be it positive or negative. If only because he has so many other ventures taking up his time and how prolific he is with the video output and everything that goes into that, it simply isn't possible to have watched the games through, coded them effectively and then watched the footage back with a team of people to develop any meaningful insight.

Well I can logically tell you he doesn’t only use numbers.. having watched his content. So you can stand by your first statement but it’s false. He doesn’t only use numbers.

Well… not really.

The manager tells the scouts what he wants. The scouting team provides the manager with several options. The manager picks from those options.

‘Numbers’ only goes so far. The Brentford player acquisition team goes waaaay beyond the data. They have watched players in restaurants to see how they treat wait staff. None of that has anything to do with stats.

It’s never been a baseballesque ‘He gets on base’. Football is far more nuanced. It’s the totality of everything.

most of your point stands up though of course.

With Liverpool not having splashed big in the time, except for Van Dijk then the keeper, leading up to it was all money ball signings. I highly doubt Klopp was hoping to sign Salah per say, instead he trusted their approach.


But even watching someone’s demeanor at a restaurant in a way is ticking off a stat. Clearly they wanted team players who treat people well, that’s a characteristic And they wanted to make sure the player ticks that box.

He's not going to come for free or be on small wages. Rabiot is an 'easy' one to make because it's a free transfer albeit probably on 'high' wages but his profile makes the most sense for a team that wants to be more in control next season; it's literally what ETH has been saying. The 7-0 and the other various away game losses have unfortunately be fairly consistent and whilst that particular game was horrendous, it wasn't that 'bothering' to me as a one off because of all the other tangible progress we've made. In fact, it's games like those that make me more baffled by this signing; much of our success is due to our low block defending, counter pressing and the tendency to let teams come at us, so we can play an open game (for more transitions). It's been a pragmatic approach this season but a Mount signing is just another side step in that direction.

Unless we're signing another two midfielders (a more defensive minded Casemiro cover/partner and/or another solid playmaker), on top of a striker and a keeper then Mount is absolutely eating into the budget if the reports are true. My biggest issue is explained below:



Like I said, happy to eat humble pie next year but unless we have a super successful and productive summer transfer market (hitting all the right targets and profile of players) along with another evolution of ETH's coaching, on paper this just sounds like a strange first signing.

It seems like the plan is have a fullback shift in to midfield to help out casemiro while the right side is Bruno and Antonys. Left side is Rashford and Mounts, with Bruno also staring from deep and Ten Hag believing Mount is disciplined enough to drop deep as well.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

But even watching someone’s demeanor at a restaurant in a way is ticking off a stat. Clearly they wanted team players who treat people well, that’s a characteristic And they wanted to make sure the player ticks that box.

I don’t think you can call that a ‘stat’. My point was that stats only go so far. They don’t account for character type or suitability for a squad.

Also, pure stats will never really access the unknowns. Some London based players are incredible in home matches and London derby’s, then flail in away games past the Watford gap. Is it immaturity? Do they travel badly? Have they just had a new baby?

You can’t just aggregate stats to top line figures and throw them around.

Brighton and Brentford seem to be very far ahead with regards to looking at the totality of everything. They’re signing lots of players for low fees that fit seamlessly into their squads and add value from day one. Thats so far beyond ‘moneyball’ to the point it’s almost irrelevant.

 

[moses]

Yeah agreed with that.

I personally feel very little about this deal. Like your previous post I quoted, we know feck all so no idea what the actual feel could end up being, but if we dont come to an agreement I feel little will be lost here.

IF the reported transfer budget is true of around £100m (excluding sales), then I would not be keen on using half of it on Mount. Again, who the feck knows!

Yep. I rarely get excited about transfers even after they sign. Keane, Veron and Falcao apart. One out of three is a poor return.

 

[Dominos]

Because again, people are looking at your midfield in isolation instead of how it fits into the team as a whole.

Mount has always been very comfortable at dropping deep to receive the ball from either CDMs or CBs. Anyone who has watched him regularly for Chelsea will tell you this - he has always consistently been at his best when he has license to either push forward or drop into pockets created by pacy forwards. The argument that he's never actually been asked to do it consistently loses a lot of weight when you realise that he basically did exactly this when Chelsea were at their best under Tuchel - in possession we were something like a 3-2-1-4 with Mount as the player in the middle, and out of possession we were a 5-3-1-1 with Mount as the left-most midfielder. 20/21 Chelsea won the CL at a canter with Mount as the creative hub of the team, operating in the centre both offensively and defensively. Saying that he's "simply never done it" is flat out incorrect.

CL final, Chelsea start Kante and Jorginho.
Semi final 2nd leg, Kante and Jorginho,
Semi final 1st leg, Kante and Jorginho.
Quarter final 2nd leg, Kante Jorginho
Quarter final 1st leg, Kovacic Jorginho
Last 16 2nd leg, Kante Kovacic
Last 16 1st leg, Kovacic Jorginho

Mason Mount has always been the most advanced and most attacking of 3 midfielders on the pitch, and he has always had 2 disciplined and defensively responsible players behind him. The same with England whether it be 2 of Rice/Phillips/Henderson/Bellingham.

This is a completely different scenario to which he will walk into at United, whereby Bruno will fullfil the attacking role that Mount was playing at Chelsea.

 

[croadyman]

As it “obviously” should - and therein lies the attitude towards him already.

Yeah exactly people are just taking cheap shots,of course we shouldn't pay anything over £50m but at least give it a chance

 

[croadyman]

I just hope this is all a big WUM.

Another who has written him off,in fact just gonna ignore this thread because fed up of negativity. I really hope he sticks it to his biggest critics in here

 

[Dominos]

Mac Allister is suddenly elite and we’re missing out on him and Mason Mount is Joe Average. ETH and Klopp who both want him, don’t know shit. This thread is downright hilarious

He'd make far more sense as a signing for Liverpool as that attacking midfielder role is up for grabs in their team. They're crying out for that attacking 8 or number 10 type player, as well as others.

The issue is we already have that player in Bruno, and we ideally want someone who will complement him and Casemiro. It seems a bit of an odd "fit" for us given the current profile of midfielders we have, but maybe it will work.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Because again, people are looking at your midfield in isolation instead of how it fits into the team as a whole.

Mount has always been very comfortable at dropping deep to receive the ball from either CDMs or CBs. Anyone who has watched him regularly for Chelsea will tell you this - he has always consistently been at his best when he has license to either push forward or drop into pockets created by pacy forwards. The argument that he's never actually been asked to do it consistently loses a lot of weight when you realise that he basically did exactly this when Chelsea were at their best under Tuchel - in possession we were something like a 3-2-1-4 with Mount as the player in the middle, and out of possession we were a 5-3-1-1 with Mount as the left-most midfielder. 20/21 Chelsea won the CL at a canter with Mount as the creative hub of the team, operating in the centre both offensively and defensively. Saying that he's "simply never done it" is flat out incorrect.

On a scale of 1-10, how upset are you that Mount is leaving?

On a scale of 1-10, I’m about a 7 that he’s (allegedly) signing for United.

 

[Dominos]

Another who has written him off,in fact just gonna ignore this thread because fed up of negativity. I really hope he sticks it to his biggest critics in here

These things can go either way.

The people who were being negative in the Maguire transfer thread all those years ago are feeling pretty damn vindicated right now. On the other hand the people who were negative about Martinez last summer are feeling pretty silly (and I was one of them in both cases).

 

[TheRedHearted]

I don’t think you can call that a ‘stat’. My point was that stats only go so far. They don’t account for character type or suitability for a squad.

Also, pure stats will never really access the unknowns. Some London based players are incredible in home matches and London derby’s, then flail in away games past the Watford gap. Is it immaturity? Do they travel badly? Have they just had a new baby?

You can’t just aggregate stats to top line figures and throw them around.

Brighton and Brentford seem to be very far ahead with regards to looking at the totality of everything. They’re signing lots of players for low fees that fit seamlessly into their squads and add value from day one. Thats so far beyond ‘moneyball’ to the point it’s almost irrelevant.

I agree and we should copy their model, but Howson doesn’t just look at numbers (i know the other poster really responded about him), he takes into consideration a team player and work ethic etc. Moneyball is important because football is so dynamic like you said, it shows things people don’t account for while moving into a new system

 

[Dominos]

Wijnaldum is a decent comparison. Eriksen is certainly not, as he’s a much better passer than Mount has ever been.

I still don’t see any sort of cohesive plan with this one though, especially since we aren’t signing a right back now either. Mount and Bruno is just asking to be a chaotic overrun midfield together, and people will call Casemiro washed as he’s doing the defensive duties of two players

Two points here:

1) I think Mount might be a better passer than you’re giving him credit for.
2) Are you arguing Eriksen is a more capable defender, and provides more cover for Casemiro, than Mount? I’m personally not sold that it’s the case, but maybe it is.

We don't know if Mount is a more capable defender than Eriksen in a deep midfield role because that's not been his role at Chelsea. He's had 2 of Kante/Jorginho/Kovacic behind him for basically his whole career. And for England 2 of Rice/Phillips/Henderson/Bellingham.

It's a fair concern. All we know is every manager he's had has played him in an attacking role... Which makes pairing him with Bruno seem a little risky.

 

[criticalanalysis]

It seems like the plan is have a fullback shift in to midfield to help out casemiro while the right side is Bruno and Antonys. Left side is Rashford and Mounts, with Bruno also staring from deep and Ten Hag believing Mount is disciplined enough to drop deep as well.

I fully understand the potential combinations and setups that we could play...it still just doesn't make sense.

Besides Martinez, Dalot (yes I think he's decent at this and has shown growth in this area), Shaw, Casemiro and Antony there are VERY little players in the squad that are natural ball recyclers/tempo setters, press evaders or ball carriers. Mount, Bruno, Sancho, Rashford and Garnacho are all at their best facing the goal, not with their backs and not in the pockets of space in our own half and midfield.

At Chelsea and City, they had a midfield combination of Jorginho/Kovacic or Gundogan/KDB in those central 8 positions. All players with some sort of elite ball playing ability to help with that control.

Relying on Casemiro and two of our fullbacks in the middle is madness. It'll work against a majority of the league no doubt simply because we'll have the better individual players but it won't take us to the next step and it's a job (good) Fred can readily do now.

 

[croadyman]

These things can go either way.

The people who were being negative in the Maguire transfer thread all those years ago are feeling pretty damn vindicated right now. On the other hand the people who were negative about Martinez last summer are feeling pretty silly (and I was one of them in both cases).

Quite honestly was always more worried about Maguire than Martinez,just had such a warrior spirit which made me believe he would succeed

 

[kouroux]

Another who has written him off,in fact just gonna ignore this thread because fed up of negativity. I really hope he sticks it to his biggest critics in here

I don't give a feck about what you think tbh. Do whatever you want, I never understood why it needs to be stated that one will avoid the thread. Just do it already without any attention seeking.

 

[gajender]

This would be proper shit signing, guys lets call a spade a spade, its the same player when he started for England, 90% fans here and everywhere else used to criticize his selection and even during the matches, England only used to play well once he was taken off.

Plus our biggest problem aside from goal scoring was controlling the matches and that was the biggest reason for our poor away form this season. Mount is not creative, nor has the ability to control matches, he is similar to Bruno and is a moments player with a good shot in him.

We have seen with Arsenal they have had the perfect blend of Holding player in Partey, box to box in Xhaka and amazing number 10 in Odegaard. We need to replicate the same and get somebody who can control the game like De Jong or Modric etc. We needed to upgrade on Eriksen not downgrade on him, the only thing Mount has on Eriksen is workrate, but Fred can give us the same so why bother spending 50 to 60M on him.

It will just make us even more frustrating to watch with Rashford, Bruno, Mount and Casemiro all giving the ball away for fun and it will not help our away form one bit. Signings like this are the reason why we are soo far behind the top teams, look at City targeting the correct player in Kovacic, despite having Rodri and Phillips already, he is in the mould of what we need instead of Mount.

Don't know how Mount would be used at United and or how It could work here , but the bolded part is something that is perfect case of hindsight 20-20 .

Partey wasn't even regular Holding Midfielder at Atletico but is Used as Single pivot at Arsenal and Xhaka was underwhelming before this season as deepest Midfielder before his role changed and he was given much more freedom as box to box .

So Arsenal midfield is actually an example of Manager's ability to see the potential in players and how they could work together beyond the surface level analysis .

This is not say that Mount would work here or he is somebody who I believe we should bring in, actually I prefer different approach altogether but I not am willing to write him off yet .

 

[Devil You Know]

These things can go either way.

The people who were being negative in the Maguire transfer thread all those years ago are feeling pretty damn vindicated right now. On the other hand the people who were negative about Martinez last summer are feeling pretty silly (and I was one of them in both cases).

Maguire was the right man, at the right time. It was only a change in team tactics that led to him losing favour.

If United suddenly switched to a style that required aerial dominance, Martinez would also be found out. If we started playing a sweeper system, so would Varane.

You can't judge a signing without the context in which they were signed. Maguire was one of the best defenders in the league for two seasons before he fell off a cliff.

 

[TheRedHearted]

I fully understand the potential combinations and setups that we could play...it still just doesn't make sense.

Besides Martinez, Dalot (yes I think he's decent at this and has shown growth in this area), Shaw, Casemiro and Antony there are VERY little players in the squad that are natural ball recyclers/tempo setters, press evaders or ball carriers. Mount, Bruno, Sancho, Rashford and Garnacho are all at their best facing the goal, not with their backs and not in the pockets of space in our own half and midfield.

At Chelsea and City, they had a midfield combination of Jorginho/Kovacic or Gundogan/KDB in those central 8 positions. All players with some sort of elite ball playing ability to help with that control.

Relying on Casemiro and two of our fullbacks in the middle is madness. It'll work against a majority of the league no doubt simply because we'll have the better individual players but it won't take us to the next step and it's a job (good) Fred can readily do now.

It’s a good thing Harry Kane likes to drop deep then

 

[Dr Foo]

I see him as giving us more tactical versatility, strength in depth (in midfield and upfront where he can play across and give energy and technical ability). However, as others have pointed out, we still need a first choice midfield playmaker/progressor to come in to help us control games better (an improved version of Eriksen with physicality). So Mount would be a decent signing as long as he is not the only midfield target coming in

 

[RedRonaldo]

We don't know if Mount is a more capable defender than Eriksen in a deep midfield role because that's not been his role at Chelsea. He's had 2 of Kante/Jorginho/Kovacic behind him for basically his whole career. And for England 2 of Rice/Phillips/Henderson/Bellingham.

It's a fair concern. All we know is every manager he's had has played him in an attacking role... Which makes pairing him with Bruno seem a little risky.

Although that’s a valid point, thing is Mount is known to be very versatile and capable of playing in number positions across midfield under different managers at Chelsea. He is also relatively very young as midfielder, don’t think that would be a big problem there.

Whereas for Bruno, I think he is quite familiar with no.8 role with Portugal, often partnering Silva and another DM there.

We just have to trust ETH on this one. Surely he has his own tactical plan in his mind.

I think this idea of playing double no.8 with Bruno and Mount in front of DM Casemiro, might work defensively, as Bruno and Mount are usually very good with their pressing/pressuring.

 

[Suv666]

Trying to get behind this signing but cannot. Makes no sense. Him and Bruno together won't work what's the point of dropping 50 for a benchwarmer.

 

[Real Name]

Trying to get behind this signing but cannot. Makes no sense. Him and Bruno together won't work what's the point of dropping 50 for a benchwarmer.

Why wouldn't they work?

 

[Mindhunter]

A very underwhelming signing. It almost feels like a FOMO signing i.e., "What if xyz club gets him instead?". Even that scenario doesn't seem scary for me. I don't know what he is going to contribute to except filling up a squad place.

We have fallen into the "strengthen the bench" trap instead of strengthening the starting eleven.

 

[Rolaholic]

Tweet

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Ridiculous demands from them with a year left on his contract

 

[cyberman]

Tweet

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Ridiculous demands from them with a year left on his contract

It’s coming down from 80m at least.

 

[Casemiro's_Class]

60 Million for Mount when Tielemans is available for free...

 

[Samoerai Jack]

Very very happy with this signing. Mount is very intelligent and a proven winner (of the CL). We need an 8, preferably a somewhat offensive one to complement Casemiro. He fits that bill perfectly. And only 24 and homegrown. It's incredible to me that Chelsea is losing their marquee academy player; essentially their Rashford. He's potentially worth much more than 80m pounds and we'd have great value for money to pick him up for less.

I understand many are underwhelmed, remembering his performances for England and last year for Chelsea. Yet in my experience intelligence and a positive mentality will always rise to the top and that is exactly what I'm seeing in Mount.

 

[flappyjay]

We don't know if Mount is a more capable defender than Eriksen in a deep midfield role because that's not been his role at Chelsea. He's had 2 of Kante/Jorginho/Kovacic behind him for basically his whole career. And for England 2 of Rice/Phillips/Henderson/Bellingham.

It's a fair concern. All we know is every manager he's had has played him in an attacking role... Which makes pairing him with Bruno seem a little risky.

I see his versatility being brought a lot but he has played as an 8 only in emergency situations where players in midfield are missing through injury or suspension. Spending large amounts on a player to convert him to a new position is worrying.

 

[saivet]

I think this idea of playing double no.8 with Bruno and Mount in front of DM Casemiro, might work defensively, as Bruno and Mount are usually very good with their pressing/pressuring.

If the ultimate goal is to dominate possession and win the ball back high up the pitch, it could be really effective. Would worry about both of them in defensive transitions and when we're on the back foot. Both lack the defensive awareness and discipline in deeper positions in my opinion. Throw someone like Rabiot in there instead of Mount and the high pressing might go but the defensive solidity would be there.

I do think it's the Mount/Bruno double 8 could work in easier or home games where we are the dominant side but in more difficult home fixtures and lots of away games, we could have trouble.

 

[giggs-beckham]

Mason Mount? Why would ETH want him

 

[Nero]

60 Million for Mount when Tielemans is available for free...

Tielmans is rank average though. Even the Leicester fans who watch him every week are glad to see the back of him.

 

[mitchmouse]

Looks like a done deal, have to admit he wasn't even close to my radar three months ago. Also have to admit that I'm not really a fan. Feels like n odd one for ETH

 

[giggs-beckham]

Very very happy with this signing. Mount is very intelligent and a proven winner (of the CL). We need an 8, preferably a somewhat offensive one to complement Casemiro. He fits that bill perfectly. And only 24 and homegrown. It's incredible to me that Chelsea is losing their marquee academy player; essentially their Rashford. He's potentially worth much more than 80m pounds and we'd have great value for money to pick him up for less.

I understand many are underwhelmed, remembering his performances for England and last year for Chelsea. Yet in my experience intelligence and a positive mentality will always rise to the top and that is exactly what I'm seeing in Mount.

So he's intelligent, positive mentally, 24 and won the CL recently..

 

[mitchmouse]

Tielmans is rank average though. Even the Leicester fans who watch him every week are glad to see the back of him.

Yeh, I think Tielmans is finished... which will pretty much guarantee 12-15 goals next season wherever he ends up - and a game where he makes us look silly!

 

[Gordon S]

Tielmans is rank average though. Even the Leicester fans who watch him every week are glad to see the back of him.

Speaking of Leicester players, surprised no one is mentioning Maddison, a very good attacking mid with one year left on his contract with a club that is going to lose big money by going down. Shouldn´t cost an arm and a leg. Not a player we need but, didn´t think we were so desperate to get Mount either..

 

[Tarrou]

I’m surprised so many people seem dead against this, as if it’s some Wout level signing when we’re talking about a guy who was one of Chelsea’s most important players before Boehly ruined them

I mean I’m not his biggest fan or anything but he’s astute tactically, good technically, a good passer and works hard

swapping out mcfred for this guy and Rabiot for probably an extra 20m or so on top is solid business

We have a budget, we can’t afford Kane + Rice and a keeper if we’re living in the real world.. and that’s before considering Rice isn’t the profile we need as we already have Casemiro who is better

he’ll start before Eriksen who let’s be honest although a brilliant passer is a defensive liability in CM.. with Eriksen becoming a solid squad option suited to easier games and Bruno backup

 

[ROFLUTION]

I think it's a great signing to be honest. Fits a Ten Hag type of player and is much more needed than a Caicedo here and now when we have Casemiro. Also it would be better to use Eriksen more rotated than as a starter I think.

Not sure what the price will be though. 40-50m would seem about a fair price I guess.

 

[ROFLUTION]

Trying to get behind this signing but cannot. Makes no sense. Him and Bruno together won't work what's the point of dropping 50 for a benchwarmer.

Why not? One can go forward while the other stays behind. Good passing and shooting-range with both of them and they both run their asses off. Sounds good to me.

 

[The-Mezzala]

Excellent point. We should have backups in place and be prepared to walk away and come back in January. Ideal is to get them both on a free but they'll likely go to the club who was most recently interested in them

I get what you are saying. Agree our squad depth is poor. But its a lot of money for a rotation option and lets face it if he is not happy being rotation at his boyhood club not going to be happy doing it here. Surely better cheaper rotation options around

You're looking at it all wrong.

When Bruno or Eriksen is out we have to revert to Mctominay and Fred and he's a damn sight better than both of those... We need quality in depth aswell as the first 11.

agree the squad depth is light. But expensive player to bring in to cover injuries and suspensions. He must of been told by ETH and club he is will be a regular here as Chelsea is his club. I just think we need a younger slightly stronger defensive version of Eriksen. Obviously De Jong is perfect but must be a cheaper option with similar attributes out there if we can’t get Frankie.I hope I am wrong. But this could bite us. Look at the abuse we have taken for signing Maguire for such a large transfer fee. Also striker is where we should be spending big. Find a cheaper midfielder who is young and happy to rotate with Eriksen

 

[flappyjay]

60 Million for Mount when Tielemans is available for free...

Maddison is who I would prefer if we are going for an 8/10 type of player.

 

[OrcaFat]

CL final, Chelsea start Kante and Jorginho.
Semi final 2nd leg, Kante and Jorginho,
Semi final 1st leg, Kante and Jorginho.
Quarter final 2nd leg, Kante Jorginho
Quarter final 1st leg, Kovacic Jorginho
Last 16 2nd leg, Kante Kovacic
Last 16 1st leg, Kovacic Jorginho

Mason Mount has always been the most advanced and most attacking of 3 midfielders on the pitch, and he has always had 2 disciplined and defensively responsible players behind him. The same with England whether it be 2 of Rice/Phillips/Henderson/Bellingham.

This is a completely different scenario to which he will walk into at United, whereby Bruno will fullfil the attacking role that Mount was playing at Chelsea.

Of all the possible motivations for signing Mount, maybe the most obvious one is the truth - he will be competition for Bruno. Maybe not, but it’s not a crazy thought.