ARSENAL OFFICIALLY BOTTLE IT! Arsenal fans now backtracking....2nd will be a great season for us! Surely that has to be seen as a failure??
- Thread starter RedPed
- Start date
The goals we scored would have been winners… if we conceded less.
Genuine question, why is it important that the goals come from an individual? I can think of lots of positives from having multiple high-scoring players. What are the huge drawbacks?
Both scenarios have positives. I just meant you need the capacity to score those goals at the crucial moments.
If we are envisaging recruitment it’s usually easier to recruit one great goal scorer than two decent goalscorers and have both fit into the system. Or if we are thinking of your current squad it is easier to imagine a scenario where either Martinelli or Saka improves and adds 12 goals rather than a system where they both add 6 goals each.
Think it's quite obvious that tactics, systems and overall team quality are a big part of goalscoring, it's not just a burden on forwards. I mean in 21/22 we scored 61 goals in the league. Took out Auba and Lacazette and added an 11 goal attacker and ended up scoring 88 goals.
Fair enough. The way we play, I actually think it’s more likely that we just score more goals throughout the team. It’s very much how we’re set up.
I would also like to see more goals added by rotation options. We’ve run Saka into the ground for the last two years, so the forward I’d like us to sign is a RW more than anyone else. We can totally challenge for the league scoring 88 goals like we did this year. But if we scored a similar amount but with our squad players contributing more, players like Saka would be fresher come the end of the season.
So funnily enough, I actually want the very opposite of what you’re calling for. I’d prefer to have an even wider distribution of our goals, as the quantity we score is more than sufficient.
Arsenal had a very good season. If they recruit well in the summer, there is no reason why they couldn't challenge again.
Not all but the problem.
Uh oh
Let's see, I'm sure it's all part of the dance, and The Sun is the original source so....
Last edited:
I really hope so. His absence (combined with Tomiyasu's) led to not just a drop in quality, but also forced a shift in our playing style. I'm much more concerned with signing him than any of the potential shiny new toys in the transfer market.Let's see, I'm sure it's all part of the dance, and The Sun is the original source so....
He was always going to be the one that took the longest. I don't think he has quite the connection with the club that Saka and Martinelli has for instance, especially after his first couple of seasons, can't blame his agent for looking to maximise his contract as that's his job. I think it will get sorted, just can't see him going back to the French League at this stage of his career, think it would be seen as a backwards move.
They did and can but it’s more likely they return to the level of the past few seasons IMO.
Kinda interesting, this continued view on here. It certainly could happen, we saw it with Pool this year dropping drastically but it seems more of a longshot as indeed Pool (Pool might be the biggest question mark for next season) would have been preseason. No other team other than City dominated over their opponents. We lacked a little consistency, defensively still suspect but there was a clear style of possession based play that opposing teams had difficulty dealing with.
We have to learn to close out games better, City are clinical here, we are not. In transition our positioning has got to be better. There are huge gaps at times left for Gabriel and Saliba to close...two of the best suited athletic CBs for our style of play but that also makes us too reliant on them. We need to sign Saliba and get some replacements for Xhaka and Partey. It looks like the reinforcements there will come in. I am not comfortable saying 2nd again yet, but I don't see us dropping too far.
I dont get this argument. The years we finished 8th was because we had a minimum effort Pepe, Lacazette, Ozil, PEA front four, with Luiz and Mustafi in defence ect. There was a poor work ethic among the players and we were directionless.
We finished 2nd this year because we had a high level effort front four of Odegaard, Saka, Martinelli, Jesus with Gabrial and Saliba at the back. There are reasons for why teams finish where they are in the league. Its not random. We are inherently better than we were 'in previous seasons' because the quality and effort levels have been raised drastically across the squad. But for some reason, 'we will return to were we were in previous seasons'. For this to be true the likes of Saka, Martinelli, Odegaard, Saliba, Jesus, Partey plus any signings we make would all need to turn into dogshit players in 2 and a half months time.
That's what I was trying to sum up! It's a progression. The season before we just missed out on the CL. Arteta fine tuned his squad, got some key players in, further implemented his philosophy and vision on the pitch. It is still a work in progress. We are still far away from Pep's City and I don't know if we will ever get there. It is possible other teams will improve and we do not from now on. I am particularly looking at Pool when I say this but also Man Utd....I would expect this to be our top4 next season but there is generally always a surprise. As of now the teams below us are playing catch up in my opinion. We are unlikely to get significantly worse, the teams below will have to get better. Newcastle almost achieved too much this season, and it puts them in tricky situation for the upcoming season. Spurs have to rebuild imo and Chelsea is rebuilding.
There is a little something into the comment that we need a 25+ goals forward. We do this by committee right now...ie Saka, Martinelli, Jesus, Odegaard (add in maybe Trossard) but we do need more goals out of Jesus sometimes. I don't think it's a huge problem, but it is there. I am looking at the middle of the pitch to get resolved first.
It's comparatively easy to look good and work together for one season.
It's another thing entirely to maintain the level for continuous seasons.
There's a fair chance that any if not all of those you've mentioned could regress and this season was a purple patch year. Whilst I admit they're good players and the likes of Saka, Martinelli, Odegaard and Saliba are all potentially fantastic players, we don't know how long their form will last until it becomes the trend rather than an anomaly.
If next season you're challenging for the title again then great, you won't be getting any of these posts the year after but for now it's still more likely that it was a perfect storm and you still blew it. The mentality will come into question next season because of the way you've blown it this year. Either you strengthen your resolve or you're completely deflated.
As you said, you previously had less quality around and that's a fair comment against this argument but you only have to look at Leicester to know that a one season wonder performance is still more likely than continuous good seasons when you've previously been nowhere near.
I get what your saying, people are right to be sceptical until proven otherwise, we are on a Utd forum as well so scepticism will be higher on here and more optimism about Utd, that's only natural.
What I would say though, with regards Leicester, and Liverpool under Rodgers who I've also seen us compared to, was after their high season they immediately lost some of their best players, guys like Kante, Drinkwater and Mahrez leaving Leicester over the forthcoming years, guys like Suarez, Sterling and Sturridge becoming a sicknote derailing Liverpool.
It looks like we might lose Xhaka, but that seems more a natural ending. Most of the rest I think we'll keep and add to. That could be a big difference.
would you acknowledge this season could have been a purple patch for Rashford and he could regress next season and United suffer for it?
This is the key point that keeps getting glossed over. Teams rarely get “figured out” or have their “purple patch” end, as I keep reading. 38 games isn’t just form. That is indicative of your level. Excluding major injuries, the problem is usually one of more of the following:
- Other teams improve much faster
- Players are sold / released / retire
- Players age out of their peak
- Jesus
- Martinelli
- Odegaard
- Saka
- Gabriel
- Saliba
- White
- Ramsdale
Last edited:
Yep.
We will only suffer if that happens and we don't sign another striker that scores more than Weghorst and Martial(genuinely impossible to do).
It's pretty clear that Arsenal regressing to a lower position in the league next season is the most likely scenario, you will have more competition, more games, and teams will have better plans for dealing with your play style. This is not specific to this Arsenal team, but basically any team that isn't City.
I agree to the extent that we came 2nd. There's only one place higher to go, after all. I think the extra games has been very much overblown in this thread, though. And teams already had plans for dealing with our play style before this season began.
- Our GK plays it out from the back, often with chipped passes out wide
- Our CBs are stationed high and intercept aggressively
- Our FBs invert to build attacks and prevent counters
- Our DM drops deep to dictate play
- Our LCMs goal threat comes from well-timed runs into the box
- Our RCM is a basically a 10 playing in midfield
- Our WFs stay wide, stretch the play and have high end product
- Our CF gets almost as many assists as goals
Except for the small, minor detail of actually winning stuff.
I don't think the drop off will be as lots of fans think, because they have a structure they play with and with better players in certain areas, they will be a better team. However; I feel Arsenal fans think this is some sort of new Man City or something.
Clearly, you have not watched Man City play over the years if you think they have played the same way for 5 years.. Pep has changed his style almost every year, which is why he is consistent over the years in comparison to say Klopp.
How is extra games an overblown thing? Arteta has shown throughout his entire stint at Arsenal that they can't handle more games. His first 2 seasons where they had Europa league, finished 8th.
The time he didn't have European football, Arsenal finished 5th. This season, they said "we concentrate on the league" and play a weak side in all other competitions, so their first 11 can play 1 game a week.
Indeed.
I think you might be taking my point further than it was intended. I was merely pointing out that if we do fall down the table (which is of course very possible) it won't be because we've been "figured out" our style of play as it's been around for years in the PL at this point.
When Arteta arrived we were in the bottom half. The team finish 8th. If the league started the day he arrived we would have finished 5th. He also played every round of the FA Cup all the way up to the Final.
This season we were runners up while going out in the first knockout round of the Europa League. A whole entire round before United went out. We played a weakened side in the League Cup, as most teams do. And most teams would go out in the 4th round of the FA Cup if their draw was Man City away.
I'd say it's overblown to say Arteta can't handle Cup competitions when he picked up his first medal 6 months into his career.
City have changed the way they play multiple times over Pep's tenure, no team can play the exact same way season after season and just try to outplay their opponents, that's not how it works.
Yes and that was when there was a covid break which allowed Arsenal to recover and there was a break, so they won the FA cup.
United also played a whole entire round, which ofcourse you would disregard as it doesn't suit the narrative. Most teams would go out in the 4th round, yes if a team wants to win a trophy, they would field a strong team and try win.
Its not overblown, its clear evidence. The first 6 months, he had a 3 month break, so it wasn't like game after game. Season after Arsenal got 8th and had runs in the cup competition. The season before last, got 5th because there was 1 game a week.
This season again, the first half of the season, Arsenal primarily played their 2nd 11 in Europa and couldn't handle multiple competitions in the second half.
COVID meant more fixture congestion, not less. And it was the same for all teams, so there was no advantage for Arsenal.
No narrative, I actually just forgot about that round because we didn't have to play it. I'm not sure how us winning our group proves we can't handle being in cup competitions, though.
We rotated, as did City, as both teams were in a title race. Their squad is stronger so they beat us by a single goal. It's nonsensical to say because we lost that we weren't trying to win a competition that our Manager has already won, one that we've won four times in the last decade and one that we've won more than any other team. The best team won - that happens sometimes. In fact, it happens most of the time.
To clarify, you think the idea that we were able to field a second string and still top our group disproves what I'm saying? I would have thought it was the opposite.
Last season, the Lego Pep thread was full of comments like this. I thought they were overblown. Would you agree with that assessment?
It wasn't quite as you say. It was a rotated team, but not wholesale changes mostly. Guys like Gabriel, Xhaka, Martinelli played a few games, plus Ramsdale, Saliba, White, Saka, Jesus and Odegaard started other group games.
I am not concerned about our cup performances. Europa and the league cup are not super important trophies...sorry, but that is just reality. Even in years past all the way to the best Wenger years we would handled these competitions with a mix of starters and reserves/youngsters..we knew there was no depth at the start of the season to play everything. It was about prioritization before we could get reinforcements.
The FA cup was maybe a miss. Especially since of all our three matches with City this year, this was the only we were playing on their level. Hindsight...I thought it was the right move at the time to play a mix team. Arteta has won the FA Cup btw as an Arsenal Manager. He was after the biggest domestic trophy this time around.
The FA cup was maybe a miss. Especially since of all our three matches with City this year, this was the only we were playing on their level. Hindsight...I thought it was the right move at the time to play a mix team. Arteta has won the FA Cup btw as an Arsenal Manager. He was after the biggest domestic trophy this time around.
Not worse. Just inconsistent. Likely not all of them but there’s a good chance a couple of them could struggle to reach the same heights they reached this season. That’s totally normal for young players and I wouldn’t take it as a slight on your team that people think some of these young players might not match or improve on their performances from this season. What is unlikely is that a group of 20-25 year olds who by all accounts all had very good to great seasons will all continue to improve.
I like how you’re apologising to us as if we actually care. The fact is that you ended up trophyless and in the short run this attitude will still work but in the long run no team achieves greatness devaluing competitions when they aren’t even winning anything. Maybe Arsenal making it through to the EL and sniffing silverware there would have given them a taste of something special and even lowered the singular focus and obsession on one trophy you put everything into?
Like we were, you’re on a barren run now of what is it 4 years without a trophy? Understanding and gaining what it takes to win trophies like the FA cup will help you get closer to the major honours too. Besides, great clubs win multiple trophies and achieve excellence across the board. I personally don’t see arsenals progress disappearing suddenly as many here do. I think you’ve made a concrete and decisive step past the we are figuring ourselves out phase but the jump from that to a trophy winning team is another one that will take some effort.
So you think Saka, Martinelli, Odegaard, Saliba, are good players and last year was an anomaly of a season, and this year they will regress to their 'true self'.
I happen to think Odegaard is the best midfielder in the world under the age of 25 & we could easily improve upon his 15 league goals last year, the guy should be aiming for a target of 20 with no penalties. He is that good and his movement and passing is only bettered by KDB. Odegaard is the heir to KDB as the best midfielder in the Premier League. He isnt some good player playing above himself, what you saw Odegaard do last season is his level. And he can better what he did last season.
I think Saka is one of the best RWs in the world already. I think Martinelli is criminally underrated and like Odegaard should be aiming for 20 goals in the league next season. I think Saliba is another rolly royce of a player and likely one of the best centre halfs in Europe already. The chances any other team gets more penetration and success form their right wing over what Saka will provide for us, is small. The chances anoy midfielder not named De Bruyne will have more an impact next season that Odegaard are small.
If you tried to buy Odegaard, do you reckon you could do it for less than 100m?
I agree with most of your points. The only thing I would dispute is the is the fact that we won the FA Cup three years ago with our current Manager and many of our current players.
I agree that clubs usually have to make the jump to being a trophy-winning team on the path to challenging for the league. That’s what we’ve done.
I think the question is more about whether your lesser players can actually improve and/or whether you can improve upon them. To me you need a Partey understudy who can eventually take over from him and, although you've 2 good strikers (I think Nketiah might become a better player than Jesus), I feel like you will want a top forward to go on and mix it with the big boys. You also need a worthy partner to Saliba as White and Gabriel are average and Holding is not a top 4 level player. Not only that but Zinchenko is not a great left back despite the hype and I think you're flogging the Scottish lad aren't you?
Seems to me you need a good summer transfer window again if you want to progress despite having plenty of young players because most of them aren't top level talents.
You forgot Tosshard.
I won’t get involved in your player ratings. You can rate them as high as you want but most young players aren’t immune to inconsistency. The idea that every single one of those players you listed will just continue to improve year after year without any dips or low points is … well you must have the best collection of young player the game has ever seen then. I think what is more likely is some of them might continue to improve and others might suffer a dip or fluctuate and that’s totally normal.
Silverware is not everything as a measure of how you are moving forward. We were way further off back in 2020 when Arteta won the FA Cup. Cup wins will come hopefully eventually but winning the league cup or even the Europa Cup means very little in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't put us more or less on target. The league cup was until more recent times a trophy for non-top echelon teams. But with the bloated spending budgets it became a good practice ground for big spending teams with bloated squads. I honestly do not pay much attention to the competition...great if we win it, but it doesn't make or break our season. I can't even remember who won it last year, maybe I am getting old.
The FA Cup is different for me.
I was just running through our 20-25 year olds.