A Look at Goalkeeper Options and Replacing De Gea

Care_de_Bobo

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You just made that up haven't you? Nobody here says that DDG is the reason Antony is 1 dimensional, Martial is always injured and Sancho is afraid to put in a shift.

What they are sayin is that due to DDG cowardice and inability to catch a basic cross we have to set up deeper in order to compensate for his weakness. As a result our who set up is lower which in the modern game invites pressure from the get go. Hence our absolutely pathetic away record against the Top 10.


The very thing you deny anyone saying is what you yourself are saying, except for the part about Martial being injured -- clearly no one blames De Gea for that.

The last thing we want to become is a longball, Route One club. Yes, it's a good thing to have a longball game in our quiver but when Salah gets a perfect long ball from Alisson, Salah still has 50 yards of space and 2-3 defenders to beat before beating the keeper. Salah is, I submit, a substantially better attacking player than anyone on our squad and it's NOT Alisson who makes Salah the goalscoring machine that he is.

De Gea's "inability to catch a basic cross" has nothing to do with our own poor finishing on goal this season. Low block defenses can unlock attacks but attacking players have to pull their own weight when we regain possession of the ball. But apparently --"as a result"-- it's all De Gea's fault.

The better criticism of De Gea is that at least two of his passes directly led goals conceded. The pass to Eriksen against Brentford, which I do blame De Gea entirely for picking that pass; and the pass to Maguire against Sevilla, which was entirely Maguire's fault except for the daft decision to pass the ball to Maguire, who has beyond disastrous the last two seasons. Both were poor decisions by De Gea and both are powerful evidence in the case against De Gea. But once De Gea passes the ball either fullback, then they look to make another pass out of the back and eventually we reach the opponent's Zone 13, 14 and 15 and we start shitting our pants, it is beyond absurd to blame the breakdown in the play on the keeper.

The pathetic away record is not all on -- cue the word "hence"-- De Gea. We got torn apart by Liverpool and City, and by Brentford (17 goals from those 3 games), but our back line got torn apart. As to why, the answer is complicated but it doesn't all come down to De Gea and to make the argument that it does -- "hence" is conclusive evidence of pure agenda.
You've conveniently left out the fact that in the Seville game De Gea made another much worse mistake with his feet which led to the third goal and the fact that against Brentford the first goal came from a tame shot that he let squirm underneath his body. He did the same against West Ham and has had absolute horror shows in massive games in the past where he's cost us the opening goal. Chelsea Cup semi and the Everton 4-0 immediately spring to mind.

Even if he was good with his feet (he clearly isn't) he still wouldn't be good enough anymore due to his comedic errors and inability to claim crosses. Only Lloris has made more errors leading to goals than he has in the past few seasons.

I used to be a big fan of the guy, but he's past it and hasn't been cut out for the top level for years. Always been a bit weak mentally since he joined though if we're being totally honest with ourselves and that's something you could just see with your own eyes but won't be reflected in the statistics.
 

Mas Risky

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Pep was using Willy Caballero and Claudio Bravo before he settled with Ederson.

If we couldn't buy the best available GK in the market next season at least we should try to provide a decent GK to compete with De Gea, but has characteristics needed to play from the back. Then we gradually phased out De Gea, just like what Onana did to Handanovic.

GKs price is not always reflect their quality, but rather mostly show how desperate a team need a #1.

I think we should be okay with David Raya or Dominik Livakovic. Both player's contract are expired in 2024, so their price will not be inflated too much.
 

surf

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The caf has now declared Dave as Public Enemy No. 1 on multiple threads. Wouldn't be surprised if he gets blamed for climate change next.
 

lex talionis

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You've conveniently left out the fact that in the Seville game De Gea made another much worse mistake with his feet which led to the third goal and the fact that against Brentford the first goal came from a tame shot that he let squirm underneath his body. He did the same against West Ham and has had absolute horror shows in massive games in the past where he's cost us the opening goal. Chelsea Cup semi and the Everton 4-0 immediately spring to mind.

Even if he was good with his feet (he clearly isn't) he still wouldn't be good enough anymore due to his comedic errors and inability to claim crosses. Only Lloris has made more errors leading to goals than he has in the past few seasons.

I used to be a big fan of the guy, but he's past it and hasn't been cut out for the top level for years. Always been a bit weak mentally since he joined though if we're being totally honest with ourselves and that's something you could just see with your own eyes but won't be reflected in the statistics.
That's right. Dave had a shocker that night, no question about it. But it's not the shocking mistakes, which every footballer makes from time to time, that are the hammer in the prosecution against him, but instead, the absence of pinpoint passing that leads to failures of our front line to score goals.

What I'm saying is that if we're going to upgrade on De Gea that we need to make sure that we first upgrade on vastly more serious deficiencies in the squad -- primarily on the front line and in midfield -- and that we bring in a substantial upgrade at the keeper position. I like Raya but he would be not be a substantial upgrade (if at all). Costa, on the other hand, would be a substantial upgrade and if we can afford to address our more pressing needs at 9 and 8, cover for Casemiro and CB and a RB -- we can't afford to not persist with Sancho and Antony next season even though there is no question whatsoever that both were more dire at their positions -- (there is no debate to be had about how dire Martial was) than De Gea was at his position, then let's go ahead and bring in Costa for another 75m. Why not?

And if we do all this, that's going to cost the club about 400m, 350m if our negotiators are in top form. If we have that kind of warchest, let's have at it. But if we don't, let's not feck this up by ignoring our pressing needs up front in our quest to "get rid" -- a term I've seen used with respect to him more than a few times -- De Gea.
 

RedStarUnited

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Inter got played off the park, mate. No, it was no 7-0 Liverpool style butchering but City had control of the match throughout while Inter sat deep to defend and pick their few chances. Inter picked up their possession percentage late in the game when City were defending their lead (which was the right call by Pep), but at no point in the game did it look as though the unthinkable was possible for Inter.

If one wants to improve our goalscoring performance next season we have to stop blaming De Gea for our lack of goals and have a hard look at whether Martial should remain our 9, whether Rashford should be moved to CF, and how to improve the performances of Sancho and Antony. Even if brought in Onana, if Martial, Sancho and Antony all continue to shit their pants we're not scoring more goals.

Having a go at De Gea's decline as a shot stopper is a reasonable argument for upgrading on him, but flogging De Gea for the shiteness of our front line is not.
They hit the bar and most people agree Lukaku could have scored with the header. So yeah you are right they never looked like scoring.

Lets agree to disagree.
 

NLunited

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Inter got played off the park, mate. No, it was no 7-0 Liverpool style butchering but City had control of the match throughout while Inter sat deep to defend and pick their few chances. Inter picked up their possession percentage late in the game when City were defending their lead (which was the right call by Pep), but at no point in the game did it look as though the unthinkable was possible for Inter.

If one wants to improve our goalscoring performance next season we have to stop blaming De Gea for our lack of goals and have a hard look at whether Martial should remain our 9, whether Rashford should be moved to CF, and how to improve the performances of Sancho and Antony. Even if brought in Onana, if Martial, Sancho and Antony all continue to shit their pants we're not scoring more goals.

Having a go at De Gea's decline as a shot stopper is a reasonable argument for upgrading on him, but flogging De Gea for the shiteness of our front line is not.
Woah, let me stop you there. Cheaty fc did not play Inter off the park. In fact the game was going Inter‘s way, restricting Cheaty and creating more than they did.

I think Inter ended up with more chances: they were just unlucky.

Possession percentages mean nothing if you can‘t convert the possession into chances.
 

lex talionis

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Woah, let me stop you there. Cheaty fc did not play Inter off the park. In fact the game was going Inter‘s way, restricting Cheaty and creating more than they did.

I think Inter ended up with more chances: they were just unlucky.

Possession percentages mean nothing if you can‘t convert the possession into chances.
I'm completely with you that Cheaty deserves justice before the courts and before God Himself. but let's not blind ourselves to the reality that Cheaty deserved the win on the day -- "deserved" meaning XI players v XI players, putting aside the criminal aspects of how Cheaty got to where it is -- and not Inter. Props to Inter for putting a fight but at no point during the match was there ever the eye-rubbing,heart-stopping possibility that Inter might just pull off the glorious upset that would have had the entire world save the 115 fans that "support" Cheaty in rapturous joy.
 

NLunited

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I'm completely with you that Cheaty deserves justice before the courts and before God Himself. but let's not blind ourselves to the reality that Cheaty deserved the win on the day -- "deserved" meaning XI players v XI players, putting aside the criminal aspects of how Cheaty got to where it is -- and not Inter. Props to Inter for putting a fight but at no point during the match was there ever the eye-rubbing,heart-stopping possibility that Inter might just pull off the glorious upset that would have had the entire world save the 115 fans that "support" Cheaty in rapturous joy.
The stats indicate it was an even game and so did the eye test.
 

sunama

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DDG is not ideal, but he is the least of our worries.
We have a huge issue in that we struggle to score goals. It doesn't matter how good our GK is, if we struggle to score goals we'll struggle to win major trophies.
At present, once we go 1-0 down, the game is lost - we need a striker and another attacker.
To think that we've had Weghorst stinking up the place - not scoring goals and still getting minutes on the pitch because we have no other options.
 

Msuker

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DDG is not ideal, but he is the least of our worries.
We have a huge issue in that we struggle to score goals. It doesn't matter how good our GK is, if we struggle to score goals we'll struggle to win major trophies.
At present, once we go 1-0 down, the game is lost - we need a striker and another attacker.
To think that we've had Weghorst stinking up the place - not scoring goals and still getting minutes on the pitch because we have no other options.
I am a big fan of DDG but the idea of replacing him is very much about scoring more goals. There are plenty of videos online explaining how the GK is critical as the extra man in 'playing out from the back' that almost all PL teams have now adopted.

The typical situation of playing against a team like City or Liverpool, or even Brighton, is that our back four and the two holding midfielders will be under constant pressure immediately after we start with a goal kick. Six players from the opposition will be well drilled to give our six players no more than a one-touch pass before it becomes a contest. One touch passes are pleasing on the eyes, but if you get it wrong in your own half you are very likely punished.

The only reliable way out of such a press that does not involve extravagant skill or unnecessary risk, is if the GK plays much higher up at the edge of his own box, to lure one of the opposition six in to close him down. De Gea doesn't do that as we know. Normally that opposition player rushing in would have been marking / minding one of our CBs a second earlier (let's say that's Haaland). So this gives the GK the opportunity to pass to that CB vacated by Haaland, such as Lisandro or Varane, who's good with the ball and can now turn, advance or pass while unmarked.

But against a really top team, one of their remaining five pressing players would have anticipated the GK's pass and seamlessly moves to close down the receiving CB (often as soon as the first presser goes towards the GK; watch how De Bruyne moves in a seemingly inexplicable direction only a split second after Haaland rushes towards the GK in many matches), to still force only a one-touch pass / awkward take facing own goal that does not allow a clean turnaround for attack. The way to break that second pressing move is for the GK to find one of our player who's just been left unattended to by "De Bruyne". This will usually be either LB, RB, Casemiro or Eriksen. Now they are further away than the CBs, so the pass will normally be 20-30 yards minimum, possibly need to be able to clear a pair of players who are in the way (for example our CBs and their minders). De Gea is very probably below average by current Champions League standard with that kind of passes.

A keeper who's near the top end with that kind of pass will consistently give a player such as Casemiro five seconds in the middle of the park to do his job unattended to (if the player marking Eriksen rushes in, just find Eriksen with a 10-yard pass, all their other pressing players are too far away). When Casemiro looks up, four of our attackers will be against their back four, pulling in all kinds of direction left, right and centre. If Rashford is quicker than their RB, for example, a well-placed through ball will lead to a race, with either a shot or a cross from a dangerous position the best outcome.

So yeah, as incredible as it sounds, GK has a major impact on how the team create goal scoring opportunities. Obviously having Robin van Persie will work better than Weghorst, too, seven days a week. But the current understanding of football at this level does not really allow thinking such as 'goalkeepers have little to do with goalscoring'.
 
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bosnian_red

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DDG is not ideal, but he is the least of our worries.
We have a huge issue in that we struggle to score goals. It doesn't matter how good our GK is, if we struggle to score goals we'll struggle to win major trophies.
At present, once we go 1-0 down, the game is lost - we need a striker and another attacker.
To think that we've had Weghorst stinking up the place - not scoring goals and still getting minutes on the pitch because we have no other options.
He is literally the 2nd biggest worry in our team. By far. Yeah we need a striker desperately but after that, goalkeeper 100%. The build up, the control of games starts with him. And then in terms of actual goalkeeping, you can't win things when you have a goalkeeper who can't claim crosses, makes more shot stopping mistakes than others (ignore the random great saves, a great goalkeeper is defined by consistency), and has a habit of completely bottling it in big occasions.

Ignoring goalkeeper is downright negligence this summer.
 

ifightdragons

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It can be repeated infintely to some of our fans.

They just fail to see the correlation between a ball playing goalkeeper and our attack.

They just see that we don't score enough goals, and automatically think better strikers will solve the issue. It certainly WILL alleviate the issue and make it bit better, but until we get a new goalkeeper, we will be under a lot more pressure and create far less chances.

I don't understand how so many struggle to understand how a goalkeeper affects the team in an offensive matter, not just defensively. But they don't, no matter how much data and evidence present to them.

Instead they will mentally deflect and call it an anti-de Gea agenda. If you can't read the data and use your own eyes to figure out how objectively detrimental De Gea is to everything we are trying to do, both defensively and in attack... You're either delusional, not smart, or simply blinded by your feelings towards the player.

Why on earth do you think that Spain won't even select him as a second or third choice keeper, under two different managers? Not to mention why do you think not even a single club outside of Saudi Arabia wants to sign him? Wages alone? Not bloody likely.

No one who wants him to stay can even begin to explain that fact. Although it's painfully obvious why he is not deemed nowhere near good enough. I'm sure we can all agree that De Gea has been a good servant to our club. That doesn't change the fact that replacing him is at least 5 years overdue, and that it should be considered a top priority.

If you put De Gea in City's excellent team, they would be giving away possession constantly. No matter how good your players are, they can't bloody create chances or score when they don't have the ball. Even a 10 year old would understand that. It's just binary logic. Less possession = Less chances created, and more chances conceded. No matter who your midfielders or attackers are. Every build-up has to start from the back. That's exactly why all the great managers always say: Build from the back, and you will create more chances and concede less. Then add the midfielders and attackers, and they will actually get the ball. We can do it the other way around and start from the front. It will improve us, but it will still mean that we won't even have a chance to retain enough possession to dominate and create enough chances for our attacking players. Our midfielders, no matter how good they are, will continue to be isolated, since De Gea being glued to his line means our defense can't push further upfield.

Throwing Kane and better midfielsers into our team with De Gea in goal WILL give us more goals, but not a lot, and not enough. Why? Because it will be too often be a graveyard shift where the midfield are isolated, and Kane doesn't get the ball every 30 times De Gea has to boot it long in every match, because he is simply unable to play through the press. Not to mention every time we give up possession because he can't collect crosses. Add to that his dwindling shot stopping, inability to command direct his defense, and how weak and afraid he is in any physical duel or 1v1, it's a recipe for mediocrity. Not to mention that for all of this blatantly obvious mediocrity, he is the highest earning goalkeeper in the history of football.

Not replacing De Gea is the very symbol of our failure as a club after Sir Alex left. It epitomizes how we reward mediocrity and thus fail to evolve our playing style to fit the modern game.

PS: In case it wasn't obvious enough, I naturally agree we absolutely need two strikers and two midfielders. Kim Min-jae would also be fantastic. But in this window?We should get a striker and Costa first. Then sort out the rest.
 
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Msuker

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https://www.mancity.com/citytv/mens/brighton-hove-albion-premier-league-extended-highlights-63820539

Watch how Brighton scored against City, from 5:05 in that video. Steele was waiting for Haaland to close him down, so that he could release Colwill. With Haaland gone, Colwill then carried the ball forward some 30 yards unmarked, before passing to Enciso. Enciso did not have a single City player within five yards of him. Why? Because City's back line was occupied by four other Brighton attackers. It was an incredible strike, but the earliest reason why Enciso had the chance was because of Steele.

Would De Gea have kept the ball, baited Haaland (watch 5:15-5:18), waited for Lisandro Martinez to pull aside into position, before finding him? Equally importantly, if the opposition knew the GK could do that, they would actually be more hesitant to close him down. Watch how Haaland stopped three yards away from Steele and actually withdrew to try to cover Colwill. He very likely would not have stopped if he thought the GK was not going to find an incisive pass.
 
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Adnan

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https://www.mancity.com/citytv/mens/brighton-hove-albion-premier-league-extended-highlights-63820539

Watch how Brighton scored against City, from 5:05 in that video. Steele was waiting for Haaland to close him down, so that he could release Colwill. With Haaland gone, Colwill then carried the ball forward some 30 yards unmarked, before passing to Enciso. Enciso did not have a single City player within five yards of him. Why? Because City's back line was occupied by four other Brighton attackers. It was an incredible strike, but the earliest reason why Enciso had the chance was because of Steele.

Would De Gea have kept the ball, baited Haaland (watch 5:15-5:18), waited for Lisandro Martinez to pull aside into position, before finding him? Equally importantly, if the opposition knew the GK could do that, they would actually be more hesitant to close him down. Watch how Haaland stopped three yards away from Steele and actually withdrew to try to cover Colwill. He very likely would not have stopped if he thought the GK was not going to find an incisive pass.
Good posts.

 

sifi36

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https://www.mancity.com/citytv/mens/brighton-hove-albion-premier-league-extended-highlights-63820539

Watch how Brighton scored against City, from 5:05 in that video. Steele was waiting for Haaland to close him down, so that he could release Colwill. With Haaland gone, Colwill then carried the ball forward some 30 yards unmarked, before passing to Enciso. Enciso did not have a single City player within five yards of him. Why? Because City's back line was occupied by four other Brighton attackers. It was an incredible strike, but the earliest reason why Enciso had the chance was because of Steele.

Would De Gea have kept the ball, baited Haaland (watch 5:15-5:18), waited for Lisandro Martinez to pull aside into position, before finding him? Equally importantly, if the opposition knew the GK could do that, they would actually be more hesitant to close him down. Watch how Haaland stopped three yards away from Steele and actually withdrew to try to cover Colwill. He very likely would not have stopped if he thought the GK was not going to find an incisive pass.
Excellent post, and a great example of what is possible and what we’re missing.

The games in which we’ve struggled this season have all been against pressing sides away from home.

Our record against the bottom 10 is almost as good as City’s (49 points from a possible 60). Our poor finishing has cost us very few points in those games, maybe an extra 6 points against Palace, Leeds and Chelsea. We dropped 5 points at home to the top 10 (22 from a possible 27) with the Newcastle game being the only one where better finishing might have got us an extra 2 points. We dropped 23 points to the top 10 away scoring only 4 points from a possible 27. If you want to improve, you go after your biggest opportunity. In none of those away games could you say it was finishing that cost us the points. Villa and Brentford scored several times from low probability chances and situations, everyone else played us off the park.

A striker wouldn’t have really helped us that much against the top 10 away - he wouldn’t have seen any of the ball because we couldn’t sustain possession in all those games and he wouldn’t have stopped our midfield being overrun due to a lack of legs and compactness between the defensive and midfield lines. He might have nicked the odd goal, but we still would’ve been outplayed and lacked control.

These are the two symptoms of our game we must correct this window. A proper ball-playing keeper, comfortable with a high starting position is the single biggest improvement we can make to reduce the gap to better pressing sides, with a mobile and energetic midfielder comfortable on the ball in deep build-up being second.

Dalot, Varane, Martinez and Shaw are all good enough technically to do it, they’re certainly better technicians as a group than Brightons back four, yet they play around the best presses with ease and we can’t.

Against Brighton away, we lost the ball 20 times from De Gea’s kicking. Steele had the ball about the same number of times and turned over possession 3 times. In the cup final it was 18 vs 4 against us. Brighton against City? Steele lost the ball 8 times compared to Ortegas 12, which shows that even the best press can be beaten most of the time - with the right structure and personnel.

If you hand over the ball to the opposition consistently, it’s going to reduce your chance of scoring goals and increase your chances of conceding.
 
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Withnail

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Below are the best keepers in the world. One thing they all have in common is outstanding reflexes and shot stopping ability.

Keepers contributing to outfield play is important for some managers, but keeping the ball out of the net, is the bread and butter all keepers are judged by.

Thibaut Courtois30Real MadridBelgium
Manuel Neuer36Bayern MunichGermany
Ederson28Manchester CityBrazil
Alisson29LiverpoolBrazil
Jan Oblak29Atletico MadridSlovenia
Marc-Andre ter Stegen30BarcelonaGermany
Mike Maignan27MilanFrance
Gianluigi Donnarumma23PSGItaly
Where are you getting this list from?

Ederson is not good at shot-stopping. He's average at best and just had a horrific season for performance against post shot Xg where he was one of the worst in the league.
 

Withnail

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The caf has now declared Dave as Public Enemy No. 1 on multiple threads. Wouldn't be surprised if he gets blamed for climate change next.
He's not public enemy number 1. He's just not a very good goalie anymore. He was never any good with his feet or commanding his area and now his once elite shot-stopping has deteriorated to average levels. He's also making more mistakes leading to goals (most in the league, was it?).

He just needs replacing. If you can't see that I'm not sure what you are watching.
 

ayushreddevil9

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He's not public enemy number 1. He's just not a very good goalie anymore. He was never any good with his feet or commanding his area and now his once elite shot-stopping has deteriorated to average levels. He's also making more mistakes leading to goals (most in the league, was it?).

He just needs replacing. If you can't see that I'm not sure what you are watching.
Most are just going with the emotions. The time when Madrid easily moves on their most decorated players for the benefit of their future, people here prefer sentimentality over progress.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Below are the best keepers in the world. One thing they all have in common is outstanding reflexes and shot stopping ability.

Keepers contributing to outfield play is important for some managers, but keeping the ball out of the net, is the bread and butter all keepers are judged by.

Thibaut Courtois30Real MadridBelgium
Manuel Neuer36Bayern MunichGermany
Ederson28Manchester CityBrazil
Alisson29LiverpoolBrazil
Jan Oblak29Atletico MadridSlovenia
Marc-Andre ter Stegen30BarcelonaGermany
Mike Maignan27MilanFrance
Gianluigi Donnarumma23PSGItaly
If anything your list is disproving your point. Ederson is nothing special as a shot stopping and is there purely for his sweeping and ball playing ability. Similarly, I don’t think Ter Stegen is incredible in that department and again relies heavily on the rest of his game being top tier. All of the keepers on that list are comfortable playing out from the back (with perhaps the exception of Jan Oblak) and are comfortable sweeping behind the defence and dealing with high balls. De Gea simply can’t do any of those things.
 

Isotope

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It can be repeated infintely to some of our fans.

They just fail to see the correlation between a ball playing goalkeeper and our attack.

They just see that we don't score enough goals, and automatically think better strikers will solve the issue. It certainly WILL alleviate the issue and make it bit better, but until we get a new goalkeeper, we will be under a lot more pressure and create far less chances.

I don't understand how so many struggle to understand how a goalkeeper affects the team in an offensive matter, not just defensively. But they don't, no matter how much data and evidence present to them.

Instead they will mentally deflect and call it an anti-de Gea agenda. If you can't read the data and use your own eyes to figure out how objectively detrimental De Gea is to everything we are trying to do, both defensively and in attack... You're either delusional, not smart, or simply blinded by your feelings towards the player.

Why on earth do you think that Spain won't even select him as a second or third choice keeper, under two different managers? Not to mention why do you think not even a single club outside of Saudi Arabia wants to sign him? Wages alone? Not bloody likely.

No one who wants him to stay can even begin to explain that fact. Although it's painfully obvious why he is not deemed nowhere near good enough. I'm sure we can all agree that De Gea has been a good servant to our club. That doesn't change the fact that replacing him is at least 5 years overdue, and that it should be considered a top priority.

If you put De Gea in City's excellent team, they would be giving away possession constantly. No matter how good your players are, they can't bloody create chances or score when they don't have the ball. Even a 10 year old would understand that. It's just binary logic. Less possession = Less chances created, and more chances conceded. No matter who your midfielders or attackers are. Every build-up has to start from the back. That's exactly why all the great managers always say: Build from the back, and you will create more chances and concede less. Then add the midfielders and attackers, and they will actually get the ball. We can do it the other way around and start from the front. It will improve us, but it will still mean that we won't even have a chance to retain enough possession to dominate and create enough chances for our attacking players. Our midfielders, no matter how good they are, will continue to be isolated, since De Gea being glued to his line means our defense can't push further upfield.

Throwing Kane and better midfielsers into our team with De Gea in goal WILL give us more goals, but not a lot, and not enough. Why? Because it will be too often be a graveyard shift where the midfield are isolated, and Kane doesn't get the ball every 30 times De Gea has to boot it long in every match, because he is simply unable to play through the press. Not to mention every time we give up possession because he can't collect crosses. Add to that his dwindling shot stopping, inability to command direct his defense, and how weak and afraid he is in any physical duel or 1v1, it's a recipe for mediocrity. Not to mention that for all of this blatantly obvious mediocrity, he is the highest earning goalkeeper in the history of football.

Not replacing De Gea is the very symbol of our failure as a club after Sir Alex left. It epitomizes how we reward mediocrity and thus fail to evolve our playing style to fit the modern game.

PS: In case it wasn't obvious enough, I naturally agree we absolutely need two strikers and two midfielders. Kim Min-jae would also be fantastic. But in this window?We should get a striker and Costa first. Then sort out the rest.
Arsenal's Gk is at least equally as bad as ours but they score 30 more goals than us. Do you think if we had Ramsdale and Arsenal had DDG, the goal difference would be reversed?

Just look at this xG vs Actual table. We're in bottom 4. And tell me, a Gk would massively change that fortune?
https://footystats.org/england/premier-league/xg

 
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NLunited

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Excellent post, and a great example of what is possible and what we’re missing.

The games in which we’ve struggled this season have all been against pressing sides away from home.

Our record against the bottom 10 is almost as good as City’s (49 points from a possible 60). Our poor finishing has cost us very few points in those games, maybe an extra 6 points against Palace, Leeds and Chelsea. We dropped 5 points at home to the top 10 (22 from a possible 27) with the Newcastle game being the only one where better finishing might have got us an extra 2 points. We dropped 23 points to the top 10 away scoring only 4 points from a possible 27. If you want to improve, you go after your biggest opportunity. In none of those away games could you say it was finishing that cost us the points. Villa and Brentford scored several times from low probability chances and situations, everyone else played us off the park.

A striker wouldn’t have really helped us that much against the top 10 away - he wouldn’t have seen any of the ball because we couldn’t sustain possession in all those games and he wouldn’t have stopped our midfield being overrun due to a lack of legs and compactness between the defensive and midfield lines. He might have nicked the odd goal, but we still would’ve been outplayed and lacked control.

These are the two symptoms of our game we must correct this window. A proper ball-playing keeper, comfortable with a high starting position is the single biggest improvement we can make to reduce the gap to better pressing sides, with a mobile and energetic midfielder comfortable on the ball in deep build-up being second.

Dalot, Varane, Martinez and Shaw are all good enough technically to do it, they’re certainly better technicians as a group than Brightons back four, yet they play around the best presses with ease and we can’t.

Against Brighton away, we lost the ball 20 times from De Gea’s kicking. Steele had the ball about the same number of times and turned over possession 3 times. In the cup final it was 18 vs 4 against us. Brighton against City? Steele lost the ball 8 times compared to Ortegas 12, which shows that even the best press can be beaten most of the time - with the right structure and personnel.

If you hand over the ball to the opposition consistently, it’s going to reduce your chance of scoring goals and increase your chances of conceding.
Totally true, as is the fact we need a top striker. If we can sort striker, gk and midfield, we are in good shape.
 

ifightdragons

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Arsenal's Gk is at least equally as bad as ours but they score 30 more goals than us. Do you think if we had Ramsdale and Arsenal had DDG, the goal difference would be reversed?

Just look at this xG vs Actual table. We're in bottom 4. And tell me, a Gk would massively change that fortune?
https://footystats.org/england/premier-league/xg
1) Ramsdale - while overrated - is actually marginally better than De Gea in most areas. They are not "equally as bad", and De Gea is certainly not better. But absolutely, Ramsdale is not that good.

2) The big difference is Ramsdale's willingness to maintain a higher line. This enables Arsenal's defensive line to support their midfield, which again makes the distance between the midfield and attackers more compact.

3) Thus, Arsenal have a much easier way of controlling the ball with all of their lines closer together, and pressing further up the field.

4) And finally, this is exactly what makes it so hard to score against Arsenal, and that much easier for Arsenal to create quality chances.

The 30 goals might be a stretch to make up by switching Ramsdale and De Gea. But, 20-25 goals? That is in no way unrealistic. It would take just averaging 0.6 more goals each game to make up that difference.

So the conclusion is: If we could keep and maintain our pressing lines and possession higher, just like Ramsdale enables Arsenal to do... We would very likely create the chances required to score on average 0.6 more goals each game. And that even takes into account our waste of chances. Or to put it in simpler terms: It's very feasible that we should be able to score one extra goal every other game, by having Ramsdale.

It doesn't take a lot to improve our team by replacing De Gea. Simply a goalkeeper who dares to stand 10 feet higher couldd make up that 20-25 goal difference. Add a quality midfielder + striker, and we might even be pushing 30-35 more goals. But the foundation needs to be there, and our goalkeeper and backline is that foundation. Without a sweeper keeper who can pass through the press, you can forget about maintaining high lines, and recycling possession.
 
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Isotope

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Good reasoning @ifightdragons . We all agreed that DDG need to be upgraded. But we're just on different POV on priorities. I just think that we need more than a good striker to bridge that goalscoring difference. If Antony isn't that expensive, I'd be tempted to have even RW as higher priority.
 

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I haven't seen him at Ajax to be fair. Look I'm not saying he's a top top goalkeeper, but he is an improvement on what we have and was available for a very reasonable fee. In a world where we need to spend big on a striker, bringing in a lower cost goalkeeper was always going to be a good idea and for £8m Rulli should've been a no brainer, somewhat like Sommer will be if he's available for £5m again in the summer, or Raya if he's available for £25m or so.

Samba is very interesting, I know a few Forest fans and they absolutely loved him before his move last summer and he's clearly performed very well this season too at a higher level.

We watched Maignan move clubs for £15m & Donnarumma for nothing in the same summer which I'm still not over in truth.
There's a guy here saying he is a struggling in an easy league. Crazy conclusion that he is a clear upgrade. If scouting a new top keeper was this easy lads you'd all be making millions.

Still cool analysis and will garner great discussion. But a glance at the list should tell you that this type of analysis can only form part of a transfer decision. A lot of absolute no namers in there.
 

Crashoutcassius

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1) Ramsdale - while overrated - is actually marginally better than De Gea in most areas. They are not "equally as bad", and De Gea is certainly not better. But absolutely, Ramsdale is not that good.

2) The big difference is Ramsdale's willingness to maintain a higher line. This enables Arsenal's defensive line to support their midfield, which again makes the distance between the midfield and attackers more compact.

3) Thus, Arsenal have a much easier way of controlling the ball with all of their lines closer together, and pressing further up the field.

4) And finally, this is exactly what makes it so hard to score against Arsenal, and that much easier for Arsenal to create quality chances.

The 30 goals might be a stretch to make up by switching Ramsdale and De Gea. But, 20-25 goals? That is in no way unrealistic. It would take just averaging 0.6 more goals each game to make up that difference.

So the conclusion is: If we could keep and maintain our pressing lines and possession higher, just like Ramsdale enables Arsenal to do... We would very likely create the chances required to score on average 0.6 more goals each game. And that even takes into account our waste of chances. Or to put it in simpler terms: It's very feasible that we should be able to score one extra goal every other game, by having Ramsdale.

It doesn't take a lot to improve our team by replacing De Gea. Simply a goalkeeper who dares to stand 10 feet higher couldd make up that 20-25 goal difference. Add a quality midfielder + striker, and we might even be pushing 30-35 more goals. But the foundation needs to be there, and our goalkeeper and backline is that foundation. Without a sweeper keeper who can pass through the press, you can forget about maintaining high lines, and recycling possession.
Do you really believe that a goalkeeper standing ten feet higher is a 20-25 goal swing over a season? Do you know how mad that sounds?

This is part of the reason why the analysis of this is boring on the forum. People can just blame ddg for anything, like they did with Maguire in past seasons. He is simply the new scapegoat. If he left then it would be how we could concede 40 goals left if we swapped Fred for some obscure french player (maybe called bakayoko or dembele).
 

ifightdragons

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Good reasoning @ifightdragons . We all agreed that DDG need to be upgraded. But we're just on different POV on priorities. I just think that we need more than a good striker to bridge that goalscoring difference. If Antony isn't that expensive, I'd be tempted to have even RW as higher priority.
Yep. I don't even think we are far from being completely aligned. I also agree with you that a new striker (and midfielder) is imperative. I just think we also need that goalkeeper to actually start challenging City. De Gea is holding us back far more than a lot of fans have yet to realize. They will probably see it once we actually replace him. Already a lot are waking up to the fact, having Onana in the CL final. And while Onana is very good, Costa is even better with his feet and a way better shot stopper. Many United fans who want DDG to stick around, will see their jaws drop when they finally see how much a goalkeeper can completely improve our attacking play. It's not anywhere near as simple as.

I really do agree with you on Antony. He has potential to come good, but is a bit limited with his complete lack of a right foot. I really value his tactical understanding of positioning and defensive shape. He is smart, aggressive and works incredibly hard. But he also really needs to sort out his right foot and be more direct in his approach sometimes.
 

ifightdragons

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Do you really believe that a goalkeeper standing ten feet higher is a 20-25 goal swing over a season? Do you know how mad that sounds?

This is part of the reason why the analysis of this is boring on the forum. People can just blame ddg for anything, like they did with Maguire in past seasons. He is simply the new scapegoat. If he left then it would be how we could concede 40 goals left if we swapped Fred for some obscure french player (maybe called bakayoko or dembele).
Yes. That, combined with crosses claimed and someone who sweeps, directs his lines, as well as is a better shot stopper.
A 20-25 goal swing is a shoe-in for that sort of an upgrade. Add a quality midfielder and striker, and we'd push it even higher.
Do it your way, and upgrade the striker and midfielder, while sticking with De Gea... We WILL score more goals. But our midfield will still be isolated, and our striker won't get the ball nearly as much as if we had a goalkeeper who can recyle possession and let our defense maintain a high line in tandem with our midfield. It's a domino effect throughout the entire pitch, and it all starts from the back.

Your lack of analysis of what a modern goalkeeper really does, is really what's... well, I wouldn't say boring. It's just flat out wrong.
I quite like differing opinions, even yours. It's just not correct, and you clearly haven't yet come to understand the role of a goalkeeper in the system Erik ten Hag is trying to implement.

It is all the forum talks about for entire matches and in every transfer thread ?
You're right. Lately, a lot of people are finally waking up to the fact. And there has been a surge after the Champions League final when a lot of fans probably watched Onana for the first time. And Onana is very good, but not near the level of someone like Diogo Costa.

It's more of a response to the dozen or so people in this thread who can't read the data, or not let their love for De Gea cloud their judgment. Or to argue that the facts are nothing but disguised hate on De Gea.
I certainly don't dislike De Gea. He has done more than many for this club. I just know that he is not nearly good enough, and has become hugely detrimental to us evolving our play. He is a good bloke, and I will always respect him.
 
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Borninthe80ts

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Genuine question, on the goalkeepers key list of skills how high is being good with his feet and tactical acumen demanded in this era? Clearly pretty high but for example is it now on par with being good at taking crosses or even shot stopping itself?

For context sake I too believe we can add a layer to our attack with a goalkeeper that is confident in launching attacks, just trying to quantify the significance of De Gea’s keeper of the year award. Was it more a team award?
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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Shot stopping is and will ever remain the no.1 job of a gk. That will not change unless the rules of football change.
Well that’s daft and out of date.

If a keeper faces 50 shots on target a game, you’d better be a good shot stopper. If you face 1, it matters less.
 

sifi36

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Well that’s daft and out of date.

If a keeper faces 50 shots on target a game, you’d better be a good shot stopper. If you face 1, it matters less.
Our keeper faces 3.57 on target shots per game, and that’s despite never coming for crosses and rarely leaving his line to sweep.

If we had a keeper who was more proactive, that would fall and be even lower if we had one who handed the ball back to an opposition that presses less than 20 times per game.

Given that De Gea averages around 35 touches per game, shot stopping is around 10% of his involvement. It would be even less for a more proactive keeper.
 

JB7

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There's a guy here saying he is a struggling in an easy league. Crazy conclusion that he is a clear upgrade. If scouting a new top keeper was this easy lads you'd all be making millions.

Still cool analysis and will garner great discussion. But a glance at the list should tell you that this type of analysis can only form part of a transfer decision. A lot of absolute no namers in there.
Christ pal what was that post you've quoted, a month ago?!

The purpose of my post prior to the one you've randomly quoted is to say that the reality is that it's pretty easy to find a better goalkeeper than De Gea and better goalkeepers than him move clubs almost every transfer window for very reasonable fees. There are so many different reasons for this that I've gone into a million times in other threads and frankly it's tiresome, if people can't see it by this point that's on them.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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Our keeper faces 3.57 on target shots per game, and that’s despite never coming for crosses and rarely leaving his line to sweep.

If we had a keeper who was more proactive, that would fall and be even lower if we had one who handed the ball back to an opposition that presses less than 20 times per game.

Given that De Gea averages around 35 touches per game, shot stopping is around 10% of his involvement. It would be even less for a more proactive keeper.
Oh I agree. I was pointing out that teams that control the ball more (impossible without a keeper representing an eleventh outfield player), face fewer shots.

It’s nothing like the most important thing. Hence the rise of shorter goalkeepers.
 

sifi36

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Oh I agree. I was pointing out that teams that control the ball more (impossible without a keeper representing an eleventh outfield player), face fewer shots.

It’s nothing like the most important thing. Hence the rise of shorter goalkeepers.
Apologies, I wasn’t intending to disagree with you, more reinforce your (very valid) point.
 

ifightdragons

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Genuine question, on the goalkeepers key list of skills how high is being good with his feet and tactical acumen demanded in this era? Clearly pretty high but for example is it now on par with being good at taking crosses or even shot stopping itself?

For context sake I too believe we can add a layer to our attack with a goalkeeper that is confident in launching attacks, just trying to quantify the significance of De Gea’s keeper of the year award. Was it more a team award?
He didn't win keeper of the year award. Alisson did (PFA Team of the Year Awards).

De Gea won the Golden Glove, an award given for clean sheets. And cleen sheets is definitely a team effort.

For your first question, it's hard to accurately quantify which is more important.

It is very telling thoug, that Ederson, who isn't a great shot stopper, is widely considered one of the best goalkeepers in the world. Same goes for Onana, and to a lesser degree, keepers like Ramsdale.

Like you said, it's becoming very clear that the top teams and managers value ball control, sweeping and cross claiming higher than just shot stopping.

Perfect example: When Pep joined City, they had Joe Hart in goal, who was considered a fantastic shot stopper, and was a star player in that team. The first thing Pep did was replacing him. He then brought in Claudio Bravo, who also was a good shot stopper. Pep soon dropped him also, because none of them had the skills required to implement his style of positional and possessional control. As soon as Ederson came in, everything started to fall into place.

So to summarize: It's evident that shot stopping is considered less important than the other factors in the modern game. That's not to say it isn't important -- it absolutely is.
But most top goalkeepers are good enough shot stoppers, including De Gea. It's a basic skill for a goalkeeper.

Yes, De Gea is nowhere near as good a shot stopper as Costa and Allison. But shot stopping is not his big problem. We only conceded 6 more goals this season solely due to his shot stopping. While not good, that is not a catastrophic tally by any means. What definitely is detrimental, is his other areas that seriously holds us back, not only defensively.

De Gea won't sweep. This makes every ball over our defense potentially dangerous, and can lead to more chances and goals conceded than necessary.

De Gea won't maintain a high line, which means our defense has to stay low, instead of joining the midfield more often. This in turn makes it harder for us to feed the ball into our attackers. So by having a keeper glued to his line, we will not only concede more chances, we will also create less. This is one of the reasons why our strikers often seem to have the proverbial "graveyard shift".

De Gea won't claim crosses. This not only means that every cross is more likely to result in chances and goals against. It also means we greatly reduce our chances of gaining control of the ball, and start a new attack.

De Gea is very poor at passing through a high press from our opponents. Instead he will boot it long on average around 20 times each game, which is quite easy for opponents to recover. This also results in a lot more chances and goals against, as well as less chances and goals created for us. We can't possibly build an attack every time the ball is given away. It means we spend a needless amount of time defending, and chasing after our opponents in the midfield. No wonder we seem to pick up so many injuries, and no wonder we seem to run out of steam after 60 minutes. Our players are spending way too much time doing intense running and pressing, because we give away the ball 20 times each game.

And finally, De Gea's shot stopping has declined. Like mentioned earlier, it has resulted in him letting in 6 unnecessary goals this season. That is by far his least serious problem, and we could manage that, if his other areas were a lot better. The big problem with this, however, is that several of these goals has led to lost points as well. It's one thing to make a clanger when we are already losing 2/3-0. But when he makes those clangers when the scoreline is tight, it directly results in incredibly valuable points dropped. So in that sense, his shot stopping is not good enough either. But it's certainly his most "manageable" deficiency.

I know I couldn't precisely answer your question, as it's very hard to quantify exactly how important his shot stopping is. But every evidence available points to it being one of the least important skills, only in relation to the other skills, and also remembering that virtually every professional goalkeeper is a decent shot stopper. It's just levels of exactly "how good". The very best shot stoppers will prevent those 6 goals, and maybe add another 6 by saving shots that really are "impossible" to save. So at most, we're talking a 10-12 goal swing by only counting shot stopping. That difference isn't negligible, but everything points to that the other areas will net you a bigger positive than that.

And finally just to clarify, those numbers aren't my estimates. They are based on the xG stats data that measure the probability of saves and goals. The less scientific "eye test" also backs these factual stats. At least if you're just partially versed in modern tactics, and especially the latest revolutionizing of older philisophies like Total Voetbal and Gegenpressing principles that permeates every top team and manager's philosophies today. Real Madrid is an outlier here, with their counter attacking style. And they got found out big time by both Barca and City this year. The main reason why Real Madrid have been so syccessful, is because they are fast, and have excellent players all suited to that style. But Pep all but proved in that semifinal which system is more likely to dominate, and destroyed Real Madrid to the 'nth degree.

Brighton has adopted this style of football, with incredible success. The only thing holding them back is their limited budget, and lack of the very, very best players. They can compete with anyone, with a squad of players almost no one had even heard about before they joined them. That's insane, and just goes to show you how effective those tactics are.

And like mentioned and so effectively proven by data in this thread, the goalkeeper is the very crucial foundation to even begin to implement that style of play. You can perfect it with great outfield players. But you can't really begin to effectively implement it until the right goalkeeper is in place. That's exactly why we had to abandon that way of playing after being humiliated by Brighton and Brentford in our first two games. After that, we just started to let De Gea boot it, lowered our defensive line, and focused more on reverting to counter attacking similar to how we played under Mourinho and Ole, albeit with a much improved and aggressively implemented pressing system than we had under those two.

Any top manager who isn't stuck in the '90s will tell you the same. And they often do in their press conferences and interviews. Especially Pep, he loves to talk tactics. No wonder he does, he's near well tweaked and perfected Total Voetbal. So that's why Jason Steele now plays for Brighton, who recently played in League Two. He isn't considered nowhere near the best goalkeeper in the world. But he can pass like there's no tomorrow. That's why Arsenal bought Ramsdale. That's why keepers like Joe Hart had no chance of playing for Pep, despite of his great shot stopping. And that's why De Gea needs replacing, and has long since been completely dropped by not only one, but two different managers for Spain's national team.
 
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UnrelatedPsuedo

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Apologies, I wasn’t intending to disagree with you, more reinforce your (very valid) point.
All good.

Not to get too puritanical about it, but it’s frustrating that many of our fans think that EtH needs a forward more than a goalkeeper.

I think if you give our manager Ederson or Allison for 3 years, he’d see us challenging for the Champions League and a decent title charge next season. If you give him the Messi/Ronaldo of 7 years ago, or Haaland/Kane or right now, we would improve on this year, but still fall very short of the biggest targets.

Pep’s City looked disjointed until they signed a keeper. Klopps Liverpool side wouldn’t have happened without their goalkeeper signing. Arteta making an incredible signing facilitated their huge leap forward.

Fans need to reset their views on what a goalkeeper gives to a football match. A great ballplaying keeper has been essential for the last 5 years.

Brightons example is ever more mad. You get the feeling that if they had their keeper sent off, and only had De Gea on the bench… they’d play a central midfielder in goal if they were still in the game.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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He didn't win keeper of the year award. Alisson did (PFA Team of the Year Awards).

De Gea won the Golden Glove, an award given for clean sheets. And cleen sheets is definitely a team effort.

For your first question, it's hard to accurately quantify which is more important.

It is very telling thoug, that Ederson, who isn't a great shot stopper, is widely considered one of the best goalkeepers in the world. Same goes for Onana, and to a lesser degree, keepers like Ramsdale.

Like you said, it's becoming very clear that the top teams and managers value ball control, sweeping and cross claiming higher than just shot stopping.

Perfect example: When Pep joined City, they had Joe Hart in goal, who was considered a fantastic shot stopper, and was a star player in that team. The first thing Pep did was replacing him. He then brought in Claudio Bravo, who also was a good shot stopper. Pep soon dropped him also, because none of them had the skills required to implement his style of positional and possessional control. As soon as Ederson came in, everything started to fall into place.

So to summarize: It's evident that shot stopping is considered less important than the other factors in the modern game. That's not to say it isn't important -- it absolutely is.
But most top goalkeepers are good enough shot stoppers, including De Gea. It's a basic skill for a goalkeeper.

Yes, De Gea is nowhere near as good a shot stopper as Costa and Allison. But shot stopping is not his big problem. We only conceded 6 more goals this season solely due to his shot stopping. While not good, that is not a catastrophic tally by any means. What definitely is detrimental, is his other areas that seriously holds us back, not only defensively.

De Gea won't sweep. This makes every ball over our defense potentially dangerous, and can lead to more chances and goals conceded than necessary.

De Gea won't maintain a high line, which means our defense has to stay low, instead of joining the midfield more often. This in turn makes it harder for us to feed the ball into our attackers. So by having a keeper glued to his line, we will not only concede more chances, we will also create less. This is one of the reasons why our strikers often seem to have the proverbial "graveyard shift".

De Gea won't claim crosses. This not only means that every cross is more likely to result in chances and goals against. It also means we greatly reduce our chances of gaining control of the ball, and start a new attack.

De Gea is very poor at passing through a high press from our opponents. Instead he will boot it long on average around 20 times each game, which is quite easy for opponents to recover. This also results in a lot more chances and goals against, as well as less chances and goals created for us. We can't possibly build an attack every time the ball is given away. It means we spend a needless amount of time defending, and chasing after our opponents in the midfield. No wonder we seem to pick up so many injuries, and no wonder we seem to run out of steam after 60 minutes. Our players are spending way too much time doing intense running and pressing, because we give away the ball 20 times each game.

And finally, De Gea's shot stopping has declined. Like mentioned earlier, it has resulted in him letting in 6 unnecessary goals this season. That is by far his least serious problem, and we could manage that, if his other areas were a lot better. The big problem with this, however, is that several of these goals has led to lost points as well. It's one thing to make a clanger when we are already losing 2/3-0. But when he makes those clangers when the scoreline is tight, it directly results in incredibly valuable points dropped. So in that sense, his shot stopping is not good enough either. But it's certainly his most "manageable" deficiency.

I know I couldn't precisely answer your question, as it's very hard to quantify exactly how important his shot stopping is. But every evidence available points to it being one of the least important skills, only in relation to the other skills, and also remembering that virtually every professional goalkeeper is a decent shot stopper. It's just levels of exactly "how good". The very best shot stoppers will prevent those 6 goals, and maybe add another 6 by saving shots that really are "impossible" to save. So at most, we're talking a 10-12 goal swing by only counting shot stopping. That difference isn't negligible, but everything points to that the other areas will net you a bigger positive than that.

And finally just to clarify, those numbers aren't my estimates. They are based on the xG stats data that measure the probability of saves and goals. The less scientific "eye test" also backs these factual stats. At least if you're just partially versed in modern tactics, and especially the latest revolutionizing of older philisophies like Total Voetbal and Gegenpressing principles that permeates every top team and manager's philosophies today. Real Madrid is an outlier here, with their counter attacking style. And they got found out big time by both Barca and City this year. The main reason why Real Madrid have been so syccessful, is because they are fast, and have excellent players all suited to that style. But Pep all but proved in that semifinal which system is more likely to dominate, and destroyed Real Madrid to the 'nth degree.

Brighton has adopted this style of football, with incredible success. The only thing holding them back is their limited budget, and lack of the very, very best players. They can compete with anyone, with a squad of players almost no one had even heard about before they joined them. That's insane, and just goes to show you how effective those tactics are.

And like mentioned and so effectively proven by data in this thread, the goalkeeper is the very crucial foundation to even begin to implement that style of play. You can perfect it with great outfield players. But you can't really effectively implement it until the right goalkeeper is in place. Any top manager who isn't stuck in the '90s will tell you the same. That's why Jason Steele now plays for Brighton, who recently played in League Two. That's why Arsenal bought Ramsdale. That's why keepers like Joe Hart had no chance of playing for Pep, despite of his great shot stopping. And that's why De Gea needs replacing, and has long since been completely dropped by not only one, but two different managers for Spain's national team.
It’s massively complicated though. Great teams concede fewer shots with a high xG. The whole team has to function to enable that dynamic.

I don’t much like the Peter Crouch Podcast, but they had a great podcast with Ramsdale. The amount of time that Arsenal spend on ‘shape’, with 11 players involved, versus a goalkeeper ‘learning’ how to save shots, was mad. It’s clear that Arteta is more concerned with how the team reacts to being in and out of position, than they are about how good their keeper is at saving shots. They look to use the keeper as an outfield player in possession, and focus on limiting high xG shooting opportunities, waaay more than they care about how good the keeper is at Saving shots.
 

ifightdragons

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It’s massively complicated though. Great teams concede fewer shots with a high xG. The whole team has to function to enable that dynamic.

I don’t much like the Peter Crouch Podcast, but they had a great podcast with Ramsdale. The amount of time that Arsenal spend on ‘shape’, with 11 players involved, versus a goalkeeper ‘learning’ how to save shots, was mad. It’s clear that Arteta is more concerned with how the team reacts to being in and out of position, than they are about how good their keeper is at saving shots. They look to use the keeper as an outfield player in possession, and focus on limiting high xG shooting opportunities, waaay more than they care about how good the keeper is at Saving shots.
Absolutely. I don't know why you're talking like we disagree, because we surely don't. Or maybe I just misread your "tone" in the beginning. And if so, my apologies.

Everything you said there is true, and nothing I've said contradicts that? I also really enjoyed that podcast btw!

Like you pointed out, it's really all about minimizing chances conceded, and maximizing chances created. The most effective way of doing this, is to have more possession. It can certainly be achieved through other means, but they will be less consistent and more volatile over time. If implented correctly, you could even get away with having a relatively "poor" shot stopper in goal, and still be succesful.