A Look at Goalkeeper Options and Replacing De Gea

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Absolutely. I don't know why you're talking like we disagree, because we surely don't. Or maybe I just misread your "tone" in the beginning. And if so, my apologies.

Everything you said there is true, and nothing I've said contradicts that? I also really enjoyed that podcast btw!

Like you pointed out, it's really all about minimizing chances conceded, and maximizing chances created. The most effective way of doing this, is to have more possession. It can certainly be achieved through other means, but they will be less consistent and more volatile over time. If implented correctly, you could even get away with having a relatively "poor" shot stopper in goal, and still be succesful.

Probably tone. I see total agreement. I built on your response

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Christ pal what was that post you've quoted, a month ago?!

The purpose of my post prior to the one you've randomly quoted is to say that the reality is that it's pretty easy to find a better goalkeeper than De Gea and better goalkeepers than him move clubs almost every transfer window for very reasonable fees. There are so many different reasons for this that I've gone into a million times in other threads and frankly it's tiresome, if people can't see it by this point that's on them.

Was it a month ago haha. I thought it was a new thread for some reason.

 

[sparx99]

Absolutely. I don't know why you're talking like we disagree, because we surely don't. Or maybe I just misread your "tone" in the beginning. And if so, my apologies.

Everything you said there is true, and nothing I've said contradicts that? I also really enjoyed that podcast btw!

Like you pointed out, it's really all about minimizing chances conceded, and maximizing chances created. The most effective way of doing this, is to have more possession. It can certainly be achieved through other means, but they will be less consistent and more volatile over time. If implented correctly, you could even get away with having a relatively "poor" shot stopper in goal, and still be succesful.

I appreciate all the analysis and beyond anything else I think it’s clear that De Gea has worse at some things that used to cover for some of his deficiencies.

What I do find difficult to quantify in the statistics is how you can isolate for ‘better ball-playing keeper’. For me, we need a striker then an Eriksen upgrade (creative partner for Casemiro) then a keeper as the priority.

Given that would De Gea’s poor sweeping and passing be helped by kicking long to say Hojlund rather than Martial or Rashford. Essentially when we have been pressed and forced into kicking long we are kicking the ball away because we have such weak forwards. If we had a proper CF it would change that dynamic somewhat.

I thought it was quite noticeable in both the cup final and CL final how long City kick to Haaland at times. That’s a change based on having a different kind of forward to play toward.

 

[Oranges038]

I appreciate all the analysis and beyond anything else I think it’s clear that De Gea has worse at some things that used to cover for some of his deficiencies.

What I do find difficult to quantify in the statistics is how you can isolate for ‘better ball-playing keeper’. For me, we need a striker then an Eriksen upgrade (creative partner for Casemiro) then a keeper as the priority.

Given that would De Gea’s poor sweeping and passing be helped by kicking long to say Hojlund rather than Martial or Rashford. Essentially when we have been pressed and forced into kicking long we are kicking the ball away because we have such weak forwards. If we had a proper CF it would change that dynamic somewhat.

I thought it was quite noticeable in both the cup final and CL final how long City kick to Haaland at times. That’s a change based on having a different kind of forward to play toward.

It would, but it's still 50/50 whether or not you retain possesion. Especially when DDG's long kicking is not very accurate and also he tends ro play high floated balls which are much harder for a centre forward to attack and control the placement of knockdowns in the air when the CB gets a run on them.

A better ball playing keeper and one with a better long passes and centre forward who can contest high balls better would make a dramatic difference to the ability to control and retain possesion around the back and higher up the pitch when it does go long. Especially with Martinez at the back who is excellent at firing passes through the lines into midfield. Adding a keeper who can also do that means you can evade a press more easily as then you have 2 players at the back who the opposition have to worry about blocking off.

Also, the difference between Ederson going long and DDG going long is huge, because Ederson can fire those long low quick direct kicks straight at Haaland.

 

[Castia]

All the eggs should be in the Costa basket he’s by far the best available keeper, one that can reach a world class level

 

[donrogersmoustache]

Okay mate. Agree to disagree.

Every keeper in the league has had a few shockers because DDG plays for United it is highlighted more. Pickford,Allison,Ederson and Lloris have shipped goals when us mortals think we could have stopped that!

 

[MadDogg]

Genuine question, on the goalkeepers key list of skills how high is being good with his feet and tactical acumen demanded in this era? Clearly pretty high but for example is it now on par with being good at taking crosses or even shot stopping itself?

For context sake I too believe we can add a layer to our attack with a goalkeeper that is confident in launching attacks, just trying to quantify the significance of De Gea’s keeper of the year award. Was it more a team award?

Depends entirely on the manager of the team and the tactics and style he wants to play with.

Some managers will still see shot-stopping as the clear #1 in importance, with claiming crosses probably second and the likes of distribution and sweeping a fair bit further down. Meanwhile other managers see distribution and likely sweeping as the two most important because of what they provide to the team as a whole. Pep is an obvious case of the latter, De Zerbi seemed to do the same when he bought Steele into the starting line-up ahead of Sanchez (albeit in a season that Sanchez did seem to be struggling), and ETH himself seemed to do that at Ajax. It seems that as times goes on, more and more managers are fitting more in the second category and less in the first.

It's fairly obvious in these threads that fans are similarly split. Hence why many fans are saying that shot-stopping is the absolute key aspect and find it laughable that some focus more on other attributes, while other fans are of the exact opposite opinion.

 

[sifi36]

Depends entirely on the manager of the team and the tactics and style he wants to play with.

Some managers will still see shot-stopping as the clear #1 in importance, with claiming crosses probably second and the likes of distribution and sweeping a fair bit further down. Meanwhile other managers see distribution and likely sweeping as the two most important because of what they provide to the team as a whole. Pep is an obvious case of the latter, De Zerbi seemed to do the same when he bought Steele into the starting line-up ahead of Sanchez (albeit in a season that Sanchez did seem to be struggling), and ETH himself seemed to do that at Ajax. It seems that as times goes on, more and more managers are fitting more in the second category and less in the first.

It's fairly obvious in these threads that fans are similarly split. Hence why many fans are saying that shot-stopping is the absolute key aspect and find it laughable that some focus more on other attributes, while other fans are of the exact opposite opinion.

I agree with most of your post, though one of the big differences in the fanbase seems to be around the perception of how good a shot-stopper De Gea is now. I, and many others I suspect, believe his errors match if not outweigh his (lately less frequent) superman saves, and is not much above average these days. On the other hand, we have people, in this thread and elsewhere, arguing that because he is still capable of said superman saves, that he is still elite. I can't fathom the latter opinion but it appears to be relatively commonplace.

 

[MadDogg]

Every keeper in the league has had a few shockers because DDG plays for United it is highlighted more. Pickford,Allison,Ederson and Lloris have shipped goals when us mortals think we could have stopped that!

There's two issues with that. Firstly, statistically De Gea has made more errors leading to goals over the course of the last few seasons (I think it was three seasons but not 100% certain) than anyone else in the league. And secondly, it's become increasingly obvious that De Gea''s errors are more likely to happen in high pressure games, with him being directly at fault in a fairly significant amount of our cup exits over the last five years (plus of course his utter failure in the 2018 World Cup).

 

[donrogersmoustache]

There's two issues with that. Firstly, statistically De Gea has made more errors leading to goals over the course of the last few seasons (I think it was three seasons but not 100% certain) than anyone else in the league. And secondly, it's become increasingly obvious that De Gea''s errors are more likely to happen in high pressure games, with him being directly at fault in a fairly significant amount of our cup exits over the last five years (plus of course his utter failure in the 2018 World Cup).

I was being kind to him, he is no better than a lot of keepers and not worth the massive wages he’s on but I was just comparing him to other keepers at big clubs who are prone to errors and the art of goalkeeping is a dying craft. I rate Ortega at city better than Ederson

 

[ifightdragons]

I was being kind to him, he is no better than a lot of keepers and not worth the massive wages he’s on but I was just comparing him to other keepers at big clubs who are prone to errors and the art of goalkeeping is a dying craft. I rate Ortega at city better than Ederson

Very fair points, but just a small correction.

The art of "goalkeeping" is no way a dying craft. It has evolved such in the last 10 years, so if anything, it's a burgeoning, revolutionized craft. It's arguably and statistically one of the least dying crafts in the entire game of football. It's evolved so much, and that's not death.

The more correct thing would be to say that "shot stopping" is (to some extent) a dying craft.

And shot stopping is just one part of goalkeeping. And as evidenced, it is becoming a less important aspect of goalkeeping in the top teams.

 

[Borninthe80ts]

He didn't win keeper of the year award. Alisson did (PFA Team of the Year Awards).

De Gea won the Golden Glove, an award given for clean sheets. And cleen sheets is definitely a team effort.

For your first question, it's hard to accurately quantify which is more important.

It is very telling thoug, that Ederson, who isn't a great shot stopper, is widely considered one of the best goalkeepers in the world. Same goes for Onana, and to a lesser degree, keepers like Ramsdale.

Like you said, it's becoming very clear that the top teams and managers value ball control, sweeping and cross claiming higher than just shot stopping.

Perfect example: When Pep joined City, they had Joe Hart in goal, who was considered a fantastic shot stopper, and was a star player in that team. The first thing Pep did was replacing him. He then brought in Claudio Bravo, who also was a good shot stopper. Pep soon dropped him also, because none of them had the skills required to implement his style of positional and possessional control. As soon as Ederson came in, everything started to fall into place.

So to summarize: It's evident that shot stopping is considered less important than the other factors in the modern game. That's not to say it isn't important -- it absolutely is.
But most top goalkeepers are good enough shot stoppers, including De Gea. It's a basic skill for a goalkeeper.

Yes, De Gea is nowhere near as good a shot stopper as Costa and Allison. But shot stopping is not his big problem. We only conceded 6 more goals this season solely due to his shot stopping. While not good, that is not a catastrophic tally by any means. What definitely is detrimental, is his other areas that seriously holds us back, not only defensively.

De Gea won't sweep. This makes every ball over our defense potentially dangerous, and can lead to more chances and goals conceded than necessary.

De Gea won't maintain a high line, which means our defense has to stay low, instead of joining the midfield more often. This in turn makes it harder for us to feed the ball into our attackers. So by having a keeper glued to his line, we will not only concede more chances, we will also create less. This is one of the reasons why our strikers often seem to have the proverbial "graveyard shift".

De Gea won't claim crosses. This not only means that every cross is more likely to result in chances and goals against. It also means we greatly reduce our chances of gaining control of the ball, and start a new attack.

De Gea is very poor at passing through a high press from our opponents. Instead he will boot it long on average around 20 times each game, which is quite easy for opponents to recover. This also results in a lot more chances and goals against, as well as less chances and goals created for us. We can't possibly build an attack every time the ball is given away. It means we spend a needless amount of time defending, and chasing after our opponents in the midfield. No wonder we seem to pick up so many injuries, and no wonder we seem to run out of steam after 60 minutes. Our players are spending way too much time doing intense running and pressing, because we give away the ball 20 times each game.

And finally, De Gea's shot stopping has declined. Like mentioned earlier, it has resulted in him letting in 6 unnecessary goals this season. That is by far his least serious problem, and we could manage that, if his other areas were a lot better. The big problem with this, however, is that several of these goals has led to lost points as well. It's one thing to make a clanger when we are already losing 2/3-0. But when he makes those clangers when the scoreline is tight, it directly results in incredibly valuable points dropped. So in that sense, his shot stopping is not good enough either. But it's certainly his most "manageable" deficiency.

I know I couldn't precisely answer your question, as it's very hard to quantify exactly how important his shot stopping is. But every evidence available points to it being one of the least important skills, only in relation to the other skills, and also remembering that virtually every professional goalkeeper is a decent shot stopper. It's just levels of exactly "how good". The very best shot stoppers will prevent those 6 goals, and maybe add another 6 by saving shots that really are "impossible" to save. So at most, we're talking a 10-12 goal swing by only counting shot stopping. That difference isn't negligible, but everything points to that the other areas will net you a bigger positive than that.

And finally just to clarify, those numbers aren't my estimates. They are based on the xG stats data that measure the probability of saves and goals. The less scientific "eye test" also backs these factual stats. At least if you're just partially versed in modern tactics, and especially the latest revolutionizing of older philisophies like Total Voetbal and Gegenpressing principles that permeates every top team and manager's philosophies today. Real Madrid is an outlier here, with their counter attacking style. And they got found out big time by both Barca and City this year. The main reason why Real Madrid have been so syccessful, is because they are fast, and have excellent players all suited to that style. But Pep all but proved in that semifinal which system is more likely to dominate, and destroyed Real Madrid to the 'nth degree.

Brighton has adopted this style of football, with incredible success. The only thing holding them back is their limited budget, and lack of the very, very best players. They can compete with anyone, with a squad of players almost no one had even heard about before they joined them. That's insane, and just goes to show you how effective those tactics are.

And like mentioned and so effectively proven by data in this thread, the goalkeeper is the very crucial foundation to even begin to implement that style of play. You can perfect it with great outfield players. But you can't really begin to effectively implement it until the right goalkeeper is in place. That's exactly why we had to abandon that way of playing after being humiliated by Brighton and Brentford in our first two games. After that, we just started to let De Gea boot it, lowered our defensive line, and focused more on reverting to counter attacking similar to how we played under Mourinho and Ole, albeit with a much improved and aggressively implemented pressing system than we had under those two.

Any top manager who isn't stuck in the '90s will tell you the same. And they often do in their press conferences and interviews. Especially Pep, he loves to talk tactics. No wonder he does, he's near well tweaked and perfected Total Voetbal. So that's why Jason Steele now plays for Brighton, who recently played in League Two. He isn't considered nowhere near the best goalkeeper in the world. But he can pass like there's no tomorrow. That's why Arsenal bought Ramsdale. That's why keepers like Joe Hart had no chance of playing for Pep, despite of his great shot stopping. And that's why De Gea needs replacing, and has long since been completely dropped by not only one, but two different managers for Spain's national team.

I appreciate your very comprehensive reply my friend. The effort you put in should be applauded. I’m glad that you could demonstrate the effectiveness of your argument as I’m very much old school in that I don’t use stats as my first point of call but the numbers are what they are.

I’m generally aware of the benefits of dominating the ball and controlling possession from the back as one of my favourite teams back in the day was the Dream Team. It’s weird with De Gea as when he first came I know he was labelled timid but I think he had a more all court game so to speak. I think his game has some what regressed with our decline in that he became a last line of defence kind of keeper related than develop the proactive parts of his game. I’ve actually watched a few videos where top coaches talk about the keeper as another outfielder and as much as David has tried to improve this season it’s a little to late.

As much as you say technique and passing ability is as important as shot stopping I still feel when he lets in a soft goal this affects the team more than anything. You can literally see the teams confidence evaporate.

 

[Borninthe80ts]

Depends entirely on the manager of the team and the tactics and style he wants to play with.

Some managers will still see shot-stopping as the clear #1 in importance, with claiming crosses probably second and the likes of distribution and sweeping a fair bit further down. Meanwhile other managers see distribution and likely sweeping as the two most important because of what they provide to the team as a whole. Pep is an obvious case of the latter, De Zerbi seemed to do the same when he bought Steele into the starting line-up ahead of Sanchez (albeit in a season that Sanchez did seem to be struggling), and ETH himself seemed to do that at Ajax. It seems that as times goes on, more and more managers are fitting more in the second category and less in the first.

It's fairly obvious in these threads that fans are similarly split. Hence why many fans are saying that shot-stopping is the absolute key aspect and find it laughable that some focus more on other attributes, while other fans are of the exact opposite opinion.

I think this is more of what I was trying to figure out, but as you say it’s subjective generally based of taste and tactics. Also what players are available to mangers as pragmatism has to play a part somewhere. I also think that being flexible and adaptable should play a role too. This is what I liked about our tactics last season. We struggled in the first two games and although we brought players we also mixed strategy in game.

I also think character and personality maybe play as important a role, especially in a role as individualist as shot stopper. For goalkeeper as much as I’m looking at calm on the ball im also looking for traits like commanding and dominant.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

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[T00lsh3d]

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Needs to happen. Probably won’t, but it needs to

 

[Borninthe80ts]

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Like you read my mind...

 

[PeteManic]

Just shows how crap modern day journalism is that one keeper has a good game on TV and suddenly United want him.

 

[Kingslayer18]

Looks like we've now missed out on Bart Verbuggren for a cheap price, so I hope that the recruitment team have a good option lined up. I get the sense they were not planning on spending big on a Costa/Onana type fee considering the transfer budget but were looking towards getting a young GK with potential. If not Bart Verbruggen who there were genuine links with, then who?

 

[GwilDor]

Looks like we've now missed out on Bart Verbuggren for a cheap price, so I hope that the recruitment team have a good option lined up. I get the sense they were not planning on spending big on a Costa/Onana type fee considering the transfer budget but were looking towards getting a young GK with potential. If not Bart Verbruggen who there were genuine links with, then who?

I have no real info on it, but there are some rumours about 23-year old Odd Ballklubb GK Leopold Wahlstedt. He´s been linked to both United, Liverpool and Schalke 04. A director at the club says there is a lot of interest, without being specific, and expected someone to bid for him this summer. Would see this as a #2 signing though, would be surprised to see us sign a #1 from Tippeligaen. I don´t watch norwegian national football, so don´t have any opinion on how good he is, just picked up on the rumours. MEN even had a small piece on the rumour.
Apparently his contract runs out at the end of the year, so should be a very low transfer fee.

 

[ifightdragons]

I appreciate your very comprehensive reply my friend. The effort you put in should be applauded. I’m glad that you could demonstrate the effectiveness of your argument as I’m very much old school in that I don’t use stats as my first point of call but the numbers are what they are.

I’m generally aware of the benefits of dominating the ball and controlling possession from the back as one of my favourite teams back in the day was the Dream Team. It’s weird with De Gea as when he first came I know he was labelled timid but I think he had a more all court game so to speak. I think his game has some what regressed with our decline in that he became a last line of defence kind of keeper related than develop the proactive parts of his game. I’ve actually watched a few videos where top coaches talk about the keeper as another outfielder and as much as David has tried to improve this season it’s a little to late.

As much as you say technique and passing ability is as important as shot stopping I still feel when he lets in a soft goal this affects the team more than anything. You can literally see the teams confidence evaporate.

Thank you for the kind words.

You also have a very good point there about the mistakes that lead to goals against, and how that seems to definitely affect our mentality in games. Like you say, it's like our heads just drop after that.

 

[Adnan]

Looks like we've now missed out on Bart Verbuggren for a cheap price, so I hope that the recruitment team have a good option lined up. I get the sense they were not planning on spending big on a Costa/Onana type fee considering the transfer budget but were looking towards getting a young GK with potential. If not Bart Verbruggen who there were genuine links with, then who?

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[Borninthe80ts]

Thank you for the kind words.

You also have a very good point there about the mistakes that lead to goals against, and how that seems to definitely affect our mentality in games. Like you say, it's like our heads just drop after that.

Likewise mate, mad civil conversations feel a rarity.
Anyway I believe confidence and mental strength are areas which still affect us as a team hence the large defeats we saw last season.
I believe Tens aware of this though and more players like Martinez and Casimero can only help. Talent permitting of course.

 

[croadyman]

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There is no reason for not doing it now

 

[Adnan]

There is no reason for not doing it now

There is, it's called the 'Glazers'.

Under new ownership things will run a lot smoother imo.

 

[croadyman]

There is, it's called the 'Glazers'

They stop us getting a top GK on the back of not having enough to offer Kane I will go nuclear

 

[Adnan]

They stop us getting a top GK on the back of not having enough to offer Kane I will go nuclear

There's a transfer budget of £120m and we need a GK and striker as absolute priorities imo. Then we also require another two midfielders if we want to compete.

The quicker they sell the better imo. I know for a fact that there's departments at youth level that are under funded.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

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[mitchmouse]

I've been shocked by how long it took to papers to link us with Onana (or should that be re-link?)

 

[Varun1]

Manchester United goalkeeping: Onana an option if No 1 needed Although De Gea intends to stay Verbruggen scouted as young profile Heaton +1 triggered, Luton keen

This article really pissed me off, and I have no doubt there is some truth to it.

We're being held hostage by DDG not signing a new deal, and we will lose out on Verbruggen because of that. You have to wonder how long Notts will wait before moving on to other GK targets. And then there's the Heaton situation... FFS, just let the guy go if he wants game time! Besides, if DDG finally decides to turn down the contract, it will take weeks (months!) for a new GK to come in, by which point he would have missed much of the summer training with the team.

What's not mentioned in the article is the situation around Kovar and that we've extended Bishop. So we'll stall Bishop's career so he can play for the reserves and Kovar will probably go out on another loan instead of getting a chance with us or a permanent move.

 

[Adnan]

This article really pissed me off, and I have no doubt there is some truth to it.

We're being held hostage by DDG not signing a new deal, and we will lose out on Verbruggen because of that. You have to wonder how long Notts will wait before moving on to other GK targets. And then there's the Heaton situation... FFS, just let the guy go if he wants game time! Besides, if DDG finally decides to turn down the contract, it will take weeks (months!) for a new GK to come in, by which point he would have missed much of the summer training with the team.

What's not mentioned in the article is the situation around Kovar and that we've extended Bishop. So we'll stall Bishop's career so he can play for the reserves and Kovar will probably go out on another loan instead of getting a chance with us or a permanent move.

The reports state that De Gea has agreed a deal in principle but it's someone at the club who hasn't signed off on the deal.

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My take on it is that the club want to move De Gea on but might be finding it difficult to sign a more established GK due to cost. So it has been reported that we either release De Gea and go for someone established like Onana. Or if money is a issue, then keep De Gea on a short term deal and sign Verbruggen. De Gea's contract expires in 14 days, so we will soon know if we either get a more established keeper like Onana or a young up and coming prospect like Verbruggen.

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[Varun1]

The reports state that De Gea has agreed a deal in principle but it's someone at the club who hasn't signed off on the deal.

My take on it is that the club want to move De Gea on but might be finding it difficult to sign a more established GK due to cost. So it has been reported that we either release De Gea and go for someone established like Onana. Or if money is a issue, then keep De Gea on a short term deal and sign Verbruggen. De Gea's contract expires in 14 days, so we will soon know if we either get a more established keeper like Onana or a young up and coming prospect like Verbruggen.

I reckon if the club was holding back the contract sign-off, there'd be a lot more noise from DDG's camp and we would hear links with other clubs (Saudi, MLS etc). I think the club would prefer that he signed an extension.

 

[CantonaManc]

Doesn't matter who we will get for replacement, we can only be sure, that anyone will be better than De Gea.

 

[Adnan]

I reckon if the club was holding back the contract sign-off, there'd be a lot more noise from DDG's camp and we would hear links with other clubs (Saudi, MLS etc). I think the club would prefer that he signed an extension.

DDG's camp should've been making noises 6 months ago when he was available to agree a pre-contract with a European club. But there's been no significant interest in him and he's 14 days away from walking on a free transfer with all the reports thus far stating that De Gea wants to stay but the club have yet to sign off on a contract extension.

 

[ifightdragons]

DDG is 14 days away from walking on a free transfer with all the reports thus far stating that De Gea wants to stay but the club have yet to sign off on a contract extension.

What's even worse, is that this could take longer than 14 days. Even though his contract expires on June 30th, there's nothing stopping either side to negotiate in July and even August.

And although he then technically would not be employed by United, it is not uncommon for a player to keep on training with the club when he is a free agent, until he either signs or moves on.

I understand our budget constrains. But I can't forgive them if they re-sign De Gea on the reduced 200 000 a week (still way too much), and let Diogo Costa slip. Onana is alright, but too inconsistent and not a very good shot stopper. Everything Onana does, Costa does even better, and he's younger. They would also cost a similar amount.

 

[Adnan]

What's even worse, is that this could take longer than 14 days. Even though his contract expires on June 30th, there's nothing stopping either side to negotiate in July and even August.

And although he then technically would not be employed by United, it is not uncommon for a player to keep on training with the club when he is a free agent, until he either signs or moves on.

I understand our budget constrains. But I can't forgive them if they re-sign De Gea on the reduced 200 000 a week (still way too much), and let Diogo Costa slip. Onana is alright, but too inconsistent and not a very good shot stopper. Everything Onana does, Costa does even better, and he's younger. They would also cost a similar amount.

Where have you heard 200k ? Sounds like a sum made up by the Sun or the Daily Star.

 

[ifightdragons]

Where have you heard 200k ? Sounds like a sum made up by the Sun or the Daily Star.

No one knows what the amount really would be. The 200k amount is the one floating around from many sources, and has even been mentioned on The Athletic's TotD podcast several times by Laurie Whitwell and Carl Anka. But it's not verified. Much like no player's wages really are verified.

But it seems likely to be in that ball park. It would almost mean a 40-50% reduction on his reported current wages. But due to his reported wages already being on 350-400k, even reducing it by 50% would still be incredibly expensive to pay for someone like him.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

He didn't win keeper of the year award. Alisson did (PFA Team of the Year Awards).

De Gea won the Golden Glove, an award given for clean sheets. And cleen sheets is definitely a team effort.

For your first question, it's hard to accurately quantify which is more important.

It is very telling thoug, that Ederson, who isn't a great shot stopper, is widely considered one of the best goalkeepers in the world. Same goes for Onana, and to a lesser degree, keepers like Ramsdale.

Like you said, it's becoming very clear that the top teams and managers value ball control, sweeping and cross claiming higher than just shot stopping.

Perfect example: When Pep joined City, they had Joe Hart in goal, who was considered a fantastic shot stopper, and was a star player in that team. The first thing Pep did was replacing him. He then brought in Claudio Bravo, who also was a good shot stopper. Pep soon dropped him also, because none of them had the skills required to implement his style of positional and possessional control. As soon as Ederson came in, everything started to fall into place.

So to summarize: It's evident that shot stopping is considered less important than the other factors in the modern game. That's not to say it isn't important -- it absolutely is.
But most top goalkeepers are good enough shot stoppers, including De Gea. It's a basic skill for a goalkeeper.

Yes, De Gea is nowhere near as good a shot stopper as Costa and Allison. But shot stopping is not his big problem. We only conceded 6 more goals this season solely due to his shot stopping. While not good, that is not a catastrophic tally by any means. What definitely is detrimental, is his other areas that seriously holds us back, not only defensively.

De Gea won't sweep. This makes every ball over our defense potentially dangerous, and can lead to more chances and goals conceded than necessary.

De Gea won't maintain a high line, which means our defense has to stay low, instead of joining the midfield more often. This in turn makes it harder for us to feed the ball into our attackers. So by having a keeper glued to his line, we will not only concede more chances, we will also create less. This is one of the reasons why our strikers often seem to have the proverbial "graveyard shift".

De Gea won't claim crosses. This not only means that every cross is more likely to result in chances and goals against. It also means we greatly reduce our chances of gaining control of the ball, and start a new attack.

De Gea is very poor at passing through a high press from our opponents. Instead he will boot it long on average around 20 times each game, which is quite easy for opponents to recover. This also results in a lot more chances and goals against, as well as less chances and goals created for us. We can't possibly build an attack every time the ball is given away. It means we spend a needless amount of time defending, and chasing after our opponents in the midfield. No wonder we seem to pick up so many injuries, and no wonder we seem to run out of steam after 60 minutes. Our players are spending way too much time doing intense running and pressing, because we give away the ball 20 times each game.

And finally, De Gea's shot stopping has declined. Like mentioned earlier, it has resulted in him letting in 6 unnecessary goals this season. That is by far his least serious problem, and we could manage that, if his other areas were a lot better. The big problem with this, however, is that several of these goals has led to lost points as well. It's one thing to make a clanger when we are already losing 2/3-0. But when he makes those clangers when the scoreline is tight, it directly results in incredibly valuable points dropped. So in that sense, his shot stopping is not good enough either. But it's certainly his most "manageable" deficiency.

I know I couldn't precisely answer your question, as it's very hard to quantify exactly how important his shot stopping is. But every evidence available points to it being one of the least important skills, only in relation to the other skills, and also remembering that virtually every professional goalkeeper is a decent shot stopper. It's just levels of exactly "how good". The very best shot stoppers will prevent those 6 goals, and maybe add another 6 by saving shots that really are "impossible" to save. So at most, we're talking a 10-12 goal swing by only counting shot stopping. That difference isn't negligible, but everything points to that the other areas will net you a bigger positive than that.

And finally just to clarify, those numbers aren't my estimates. They are based on the xG stats data that measure the probability of saves and goals. The less scientific "eye test" also backs these factual stats. At least if you're just partially versed in modern tactics, and especially the latest revolutionizing of older philisophies like Total Voetbal and Gegenpressing principles that permeates every top team and manager's philosophies today. Real Madrid is an outlier here, with their counter attacking style. And they got found out big time by both Barca and City this year. The main reason why Real Madrid have been so syccessful, is because they are fast, and have excellent players all suited to that style. But Pep all but proved in that semifinal which system is more likely to dominate, and destroyed Real Madrid to the 'nth degree.

Brighton has adopted this style of football, with incredible success. The only thing holding them back is their limited budget, and lack of the very, very best players. They can compete with anyone, with a squad of players almost no one had even heard about before they joined them. That's insane, and just goes to show you how effective those tactics are.

And like mentioned and so effectively proven by data in this thread, the goalkeeper is the very crucial foundation to even begin to implement that style of play. You can perfect it with great outfield players. But you can't really begin to effectively implement it until the right goalkeeper is in place. That's exactly why we had to abandon that way of playing after being humiliated by Brighton and Brentford in our first two games. After that, we just started to let De Gea boot it, lowered our defensive line, and focused more on reverting to counter attacking similar to how we played under Mourinho and Ole, albeit with a much improved and aggressively implemented pressing system than we had under those two.

Any top manager who isn't stuck in the '90s will tell you the same. And they often do in their press conferences and interviews. Especially Pep, he loves to talk tactics. No wonder he does, he's near well tweaked and perfected Total Voetbal. So that's why Jason Steele now plays for Brighton, who recently played in League Two. He isn't considered nowhere near the best goalkeeper in the world. But he can pass like there's no tomorrow. That's why Arsenal bought Ramsdale. That's why keepers like Joe Hart had no chance of playing for Pep, despite of his great shot stopping. And that's why De Gea needs replacing, and has long since been completely dropped by not only one, but two different managers for Spain's national team.

Promote him mods.

 

[daba]

The reports state that De Gea has agreed a deal in principle but it's someone at the club who hasn't signed off on the deal.

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My take on it is that the club want to move De Gea on but might be finding it difficult to sign a more established GK due to cost. So it has been reported that we either release De Gea and go for someone established like Onana. Or if money is a issue, then keep De Gea on a short term deal and sign Verbruggen. De Gea's contract expires in 14 days, so we will soon know if we either get a more established keeper like Onana or a young up and coming prospect like Verbruggen.

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£70m have a bloody day off

 

[ifightdragons]

Promote him mods.

Thanks mate, appreciate the kind words.

 

[Broski-MUFC]

onana is better than de gea at the moment and i see it as progress i just think he is not worth 70 million 60 at the most.