I don’t think a sample of less than 50 to 80 games is enough to draw a firm conclusion on shot stopping. A couple of big saves or mistakes can drastically change the picture within a small sample, like Onana’s.
A Look at Goalkeeper Options and Replacing De Gea
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Fair enough. His last few matches for Ajax were terrible but he regained his form at Inter and 18/19 Onana would be a no brainer for me. What I remember most are his Ice hockey goalie like saves where he stopped balls with his knee while using his hands to make sure the ball wouldn't go between his legs.
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Personally Jan Oblak would be my choice or Mike Maignan.
Though we'll probably end up with Meslier or Mamardashvili.
Whoever comes in as the long term replacement, needs to be a world class shot stopped and have the ability to use his feet.
Though we'll probably end up with Meslier or Mamardashvili.
Whoever comes in as the long term replacement, needs to be a world class shot stopped and have the ability to use his feet.
Oblak is no better than De Gea with his feet.
If we sign Meslier I’ll give up. He isn’t good at anything and got dropped at Leeds ffs.
Onana's sweeping stats which seem quite strange. In the Eredivisie in 18/19, 19/20 and 20/21 he quite obviously played very much as a sweeper keeper, particularly in the latter two where he did it more than just about anyone. In the CL in those years he only swept about half as much, and then ever since his return from the ban he didn't do it very often for Ajax (although it was only 6 games) and then for Inter this year he basically didn't do it at all (half as much as De Gea).
Obviously team tactics will change things a fair amount, but to go from 94th percentile (19/20) to 5th percentile (22/23) is such a huge change. I'm going purely off stats though, so if anyone has actually watched him a decent amount in both periods I'd be interested to know your thoughts about it. Did Inter just play very deep or something so that Onana didn't get the opportunity to actually come out to sweep, or is it something that he's lost confidence in doing during his ban?
Obviously team tactics will change things a fair amount, but to go from 94th percentile (19/20) to 5th percentile (22/23) is such a huge change. I'm going purely off stats though, so if anyone has actually watched him a decent amount in both periods I'd be interested to know your thoughts about it. Did Inter just play very deep or something so that Onana didn't get the opportunity to actually come out to sweep, or is it something that he's lost confidence in doing during his ban?
Below are the best keepers in the world. One thing they all have in common is outstanding reflexes and shot stopping ability.
Keepers contributing to outfield play is important for some managers, but keeping the ball out of the net, is the bread and butter all keepers are judged by.
| Thibaut Courtois | 30 | Real Madrid | Belgium |
| Manuel Neuer | 36 | Bayern Munich | Germany |
| Ederson | 28 | Manchester City | Brazil |
| Alisson | 29 | Liverpool | Brazil |
| Jan Oblak | 29 | Atletico Madrid | Slovenia |
| Marc-Andre ter Stegen | 30 | Barcelona | Germany |
| Mike Maignan | 27 | Milan | France |
| Gianluigi Donnarumma | 23 | PSG | Italy |
Apparently these are some of the best younger keepers. Other than Meslier i cant recall having seen any of them play.
| Illan Meslier | 22 | Leeds Utd | France |
| Girogio Mamardeshvili | 21 | Valencia | Georgia |
| Juan Musso | 28 | Atalanta | Argentina |
| Justin Bijlow | 24 | Feyenoord | Holland |
| Arnau Tenas | 21 | Barcelona B | Spain |
| Altay Bayindir | 24 | Fenerbahce | Turkey |
| Julen Agirrezabala | 21 | A. Bilbao | Spain |
| Dominik Livakovic | 27 | Dinamo Zagreb | Croatia |
Inter had a few half chances, but in no universe did they do enough to deserve winning the game. But neither did we.
The difference between the two sides was not their keepers, who are both excellent, but each of their 10 outfield players, City’s being vastly superior. City has a deeper bench — KDB comes off, no problem, bring on Foden.
As for our outfield players being better than Inter’s, no dice with that argument either.
Our front line was woeful, and it can’t be argued that Sancho and Antony have been brilliant this season. Rashford has been out of form the last 6-8 weeks. Casemiro is who he is, but Eriksen, a player whose minutes need to be managed now, crumbled in the second half of the season. As great as Bruno can be, he’s incredibly erratic. He was not stellar v City. Shaw is world class, your point being well taken. Lindelof would not walk into Inter’s starting XI, nor would AWB. Varane is class, but he’s also in decline and needs his minutes managed.
There’s a reason we have multiple threads with multiple begging for at least one striker, many asking for two, cover for Bruno. an upgrade on Eriksen, cover for Casemiro, a new CB, and new RB.
And a new GK as well, to be sure. But the argument that our outfield is good enough — we literally do not have a single striker — and that the difference in these two cup finals were the keepers is driven by a pure agenda. No chance does Onana, undeniably the better keeper in terms of distribution, make the save on either Gundogan shot. And even though Onana is clearly the better distributor of the ball, Inter could not score and scarcely forced Ederson into action.
Maignan is great but would cost 70-80M at least. We are not spending that much on a keeper.
Oblak don't play with his feet, he's an old school keeper. Also hasn't he regressed in the last few years? The hype around him has slowed in the last 2-3 seasons.
Don't know about Giorgi Mamardashvili as I haven't watch him regularly but Meslier would be truly awful. He's not even mid table quality.
Not only that, in those 6 or something games he played he conceded about half of Ajax goals against of the season. That snake absolutely phoned it in, so that might be something Ten Hag would be wary about. He also has/had massive problems at Cameroon. So 1 little thing he doesn't like and he goes on strike. Could be a biiiiiiiiig problem
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. The OP lists dozens of goalkeepers with detailed stats on a number of performance areas. What are these tables supposed to say?
Also, Ten Hag has often spoken about being able to play out from the back, which clearly something he values highly. So clearly, he is among those 'some managers' and it will have to be a key quality of whatever goalkeeper he gets in.
Besides Oblak and Donnaruma all the other keepers are top of the notch with his feet. Also there's a reason why Oblak and Donnaruma are not considered amongst the best anymore. Ball playing abilities have become as important as shot stopping for a keeper. A clear example of this is Ederson who's not particularly great at shot stopping but his ability on the ball is so good that it gets overlooked.
Wow
I don’t think you meant to quote me, though Ederson is an average shot-stopper, with a particular weakness in long range one on ones.
Regarding de Gea's new deal I guess no news is good news? It's been reported for a while that the contract was ready just needed his signature.
Maybe his last mistakes change the direction of it? We can only hope
Maybe his last mistakes change the direction of it? We can only hope
Yeah hopeful we get a new number 1 provided that his name isn't Jordan Pickford
I mean I want him gone and Raya and Pickford would be improvements on De Gea but God damn we should be aiming way higher.
Yeah. Ajax only conceded 19 goals that season, 10 of which in the 6 games with Onana. He's a very good keeper, but has quite some mental issues.Wow
Yeah put them guys 5th and 6th on shortlist
Pickford. Oh come on ...Just praying none of the reliable Utd journos corroborate our interest in him
Ederson has always been fairly average with his shot-stopping ability. He's basically the exact opposite of what you are saying. As long as his shot-stopping isn't an out-and-out weakness, it's his ability on the ball which is so prized by Pep.
Oblak's been poor for a couple of years now so is nowhere near one of the best anymore (he improved a bit this year but still nowhere near as good as he once was), but I guess your point is that he 'was' rated so highly because of his shot-stopping. Worth noting though he was at Atletico where Simeone's style of play has always been probably the least possession-oriented of all top teams.
The absolute best keepers combine shot-stopping, distribution, sweeping and cross-claiming. It's why many have considered Alisson to have been the best in the world for the last few years, and why Neuer used to be the undisputed best. If you can't get someone who is great at all four, it's then up to the manager as to how they want to balance the four attributes. Some will consider shot-stopping to be the key, others would focus more on the distribution and sweeping. Obviously the keeper can't be actually poor at shot-stopping, but plenty of managers would take somebody who is only a decent shot-stopper but brilliant at distribution over a keeper who is the other way around. Ten Hag seems likely to be one who would.
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I don't think he has mental issues so much but he's a young lad still and the Cameroon coach was apparently a bellend.
He wouldn't have saved the first, but I'd hardly say there's no chance he'd save the second. De Gea's positioning and footwork on that goal was poor. I'm certainly not saying Onana would definitely have saved it, but it's one that I'd say a keeper 'should' be making.
Cheers for clarification
I suspect he saves the second shot, first one maybe but probably not, it was saveable though.
Watching the game from sat, Inter numerous times got the ball into the strikers feet in dangerous posistions going through the press exposing city's defence. They just didn't have the required quality upfront to make it count. Put Bruno and Rashford in similar positions history suggests chances and goals. The fact is though we couldn't, why? Because we couldn't play through there press/block. Why can't we play through there press or block because our GK isn't good enough or confident enough on the ball to play as the extra man.
Yes we do need other upgrades, but it's funny how we have upgraded these positions before in recent years yet still find ourselves with the same problems. We can't go toe to toe with the best sides. Why can't we go toe for toe with them because they are all high pressing sides who we can't play out against so we are left scrapping for long balls and second balls just hoping to create a few chances and defend deep to keep them out at the othe end. It's not sustainable.
Yeah you beat me to it
Sigh...
With a keeper that doesn't give away possession 20-30 times a match - like De Gea did in that final, and every game - it's quite likely City wouldn't even have created those chances they scored. (Well, the second chance. The first was a freak goal before United even had the ball.)
You're not looking at the bigger picture. You're focusing solely on shot stopping. Ederson isn't a great shot stopper. Would Pep drop him? No way. Why? Because his style of play severely limits opponents creating chances. The insane claim of the cross against Inter is the perfect example. It might have prevented a goal before a chance even happened. De Gea hasn't claimed a cross like that in his entire career. DDG would NEVER do that.
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He was a total professional before the ban and I had serious doubts he would bounce back. He did at Inter so I believe he's mentally strong. Also worthy to note is that he lost his older brother at a young age.
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What "sigh"?
United and Inter were played off the park by City's outfield players. Even with the substantially better keeper in Onana, at no point in the match did Inter look favored to beat City. Nor did we, but the point is that if with Onana >>> De Gea, Inter were beaten comprehensively between the boxes, as we were.
By all means bring in Onana, but don't expect that doing so will make Martial, Sancho or Antony worldbeating forwards or bring new life to Eriksen's tired legs. The "
bigger picture", as you rightly note, is that our front line needs significant upgrading, we need more depth in midfield and we need a CB to replace Maguire. We also, but not primarily, need to upgrade at GK and if we have the budget to do so, let's make it so -- but if we were to neglect upgrading our outfield players because of a huge spend on GK we should not expect results to be any different from this season, when our goals conceded record overall was pretty decent but our goals scored record was atrocious. And there is no fukking way De Gea gets the blame for the poor performances of Martial, Sancho and Antony just as De Gea gets the credit for Rashford's brilliant performances.
This agenda has to end. Upgrade De Gea, fine, but he's not the cause of our problems in midfield and attack this season. Midfielders and forwards responsible for their own performances. We've been a club that for too long has pointed responsibility in the other direction. We need to hold players who performed poorly accountable for their own performances.
Still baffles me how people in here actually believe the bolded bit. Yes a GK that is comfortable on the ball is going to facilitate playing out of the back but this idea that replacing DDG with a ball playing GK is going to make the likes of Mctominay, Fred etc better in possesion is by far the stupidest narrative I have seen pushed here.What "sigh"?
United and Inter were played off the park by City's outfield players. Even with the substantially better keeper in Onana, at no point in the match did Inter look favored to beat City. Nor did we, but the point is that if with Onana >>> De Gea, Inter were beaten comprehensively between the boxes, as we were.
By all means bring in Onana, but don't expect that doing so will make Martial, Sancho or Antony worldbeating forwards or bring new life to Eriksen's tired legs. The "
bigger picture", as you rightly note, is that our front line needs significant upgrading, we need more depth in midfield and we need a CB to replace Maguire. We also, but not primarily, need to upgrade at GK and if we have the budget to do so, let's make it so -- but if we were to neglect upgrading our outfield players because of a huge spend on GK we should not expect results to be any different from this season, when our goals conceded record overall was pretty decent but our goals scored record was atrocious. And there is no fukking way De Gea gets the blame for the poor performances of Martial, Sancho and Antony just as De Gea gets the credit for Rashford's brilliant performances.
This agenda has to end. Upgrade De Gea, fine, but he's not the cause of our problems in midfield and attack this season. Midfielders and forwards responsible for their own performances. We've been a club that for too long has pointed responsibility in the other direction. We need to hold players who performed poorly accountable for their own performances.
Hilarious how people use City as an example yet forget to mention the magicians they have in midfield and attack.
He's not 'the' cause, but he's 'a' cause of our inability to maintain possession, transition play, resist the press, and maintain a high line (which itself causes ourselves to have a weaker pressing game).
There do seem to be a few posters making out that replacing him will fix all those issues which is certainly going overboard about it, but replacing him will certainly improve all of them. Which will then make it easier for midfielders to do their job.
Oh, and do you actually think a 4th choice CB is a higher priority than a 1st choice goalkeeper?
Last two posts ( RVN1991 & LES TALIONIS) have been great. Seriously.
Inter did not get played off the park. If they "looked" like they did to you then fine but from what I saw and checking the stats they did not get played of the park. They in the end had more shots, more shots on target and the possession stats were 54-46. What the other poster said is, there were numerous times Inter were in behind City's press due to Onanas passing and failed to make a chance. Given similar scenarios with out current players, we would do better than they did.What "sigh"?
United and Inter were played off the park by City's outfield players. Even with the substantially better keeper in Onana, at no point in the match did Inter look favored to beat City. Nor did we, but the point is that if with Onana >>> De Gea, Inter were beaten comprehensively between the boxes, as we were.
By all means bring in Onana, but don't expect that doing so will make Martial, Sancho or Antony worldbeating forwards or bring new life to Eriksen's tired legs. The "
bigger picture", as you rightly note, is that our front line needs significant upgrading, we need more depth in midfield and we need a CB to replace Maguire. We also, but not primarily, need to upgrade at GK and if we have the budget to do so, let's make it so -- but if we were to neglect upgrading our outfield players because of a huge spend on GK we should not expect results to be any different from this season, when our goals conceded record overall was pretty decent but our goals scored record was atrocious. And there is no fukking way De Gea gets the blame for the poor performances of Martial, Sancho and Antony just as De Gea gets the credit for Rashford's brilliant performances.
This agenda has to end. Upgrade De Gea, fine, but he's not the cause of our problems in midfield and attack this season. Midfielders and forwards responsible for their own performances. We've been a club that for too long has pointed responsibility in the other direction. We need to hold players who performed poorly accountable for their own performances.
Why do people think that because some of us want De Gea replaced, it means we don't care about the rest of the upgrades needed? De Gea is 33 this year and is on enormous wages. If he resigns, we won't be able to sell him for a good while yet.
you are only aware of the latest issue with Onana and the national team, it happened before with another manager.
Cameroon Coach : Ex-Barcelona GK Rejected The Chance To Play Against Nigeria :: All Nigeria Soccer - The Complete Nigerian Football Portal
this is about the only English article i could find due to google being shit, but there are loads of Dutch articles about it.
At the time he was behind a weaker GK, so he didn't want to be called up anymore, pretty much the same as last World Cup. At Ajax it kinda also was the same, after his suspension he was rightfully benched and only had to play when the other GKs were injured. He was pissing off supporters and didn't even try when he had to play.
Happy with any of Maignan/Onana/Costa
It really is bizarre how players like Martial, Sancho and Antony -- who have been shite this season -- somehow find apologists on the caf blaming De Gea for their shiteness.
Last week at about this time there was a post that used the example of Alisson hitting Salah with a perfect long ball in midfield and then beating 2-3 defenders and scoring, of proof of how Alisson's brilliance at passing makes it possible for Salah to score those goals. Rubbish. Salah is light years superior to Antony and it's his brilliance, not Alisson's, that makes those mazy runs that end up with goals possible.
Inter got played off the park, mate. No, it was no 7-0 Liverpool style butchering but City had control of the match throughout while Inter sat deep to defend and pick their few chances. Inter picked up their possession percentage late in the game when City were defending their lead (which was the right call by Pep), but at no point in the game did it look as though the unthinkable was possible for Inter.
If one wants to improve our goalscoring performance next season we have to stop blaming De Gea for our lack of goals and have a hard look at whether Martial should remain our 9, whether Rashford should be moved to CF, and how to improve the performances of Sancho and Antony. Even if brought in Onana, if Martial, Sancho and Antony all continue to shit their pants we're not scoring more goals.
Having a go at De Gea's decline as a shot stopper is a reasonable argument for upgrading on him, but flogging De Gea for the shiteness of our front line is not.
@dinostar77 you haven't watched Oblak in the last 2-3 years have you? He's declined just as much as our very own No. 1. As for the list you listed, not all those GK are excellent shot stoppers. But you know what all of them bar Oblak are? Good ball players. It just so happens that some keepers can be both. Neuer, Curtois, Ter Stegen, Maiganan and Onan all are good shot stoppers, but also very good ball players.
It not a either/or argument. We just need someone who is comparable to DDG current shot stopping and better in every other aspect.
What they are sayin is that due to DDG cowardice and inability to catch a basic cross we have to set up deeper in order to compensate for his weakness. As a result our who set up is lower which in the modern game invites pressure from the get go. Hence our absolutely pathetic away record against the Top 10.
As for the FA cup final: The main criticism of DDG is his constant hoofing it to the opposition in this case City who are the best team in the world at keeping the ball.
Going by that logic we are already at a disadvantage from the get go. In moments like these you want City to see as little of the ball as possible. So what does DDG do in all of this?
Does he follow the Onana route where he plays it short, bypassing the press and start attacks/counter attacks? Or does he just aimlessly hoofs it to the opposition giving them a gift and another reason to start an attack.
Do you see how this puts us under unnecessary pressure?
The modern game is more than just shot stopping. The modern game is also keeping possesion so you can prevent the oppo team from having those shots to begin with.
It not a either/or argument. We just need someone who is comparable to DDG current shot stopping and better in every other aspect.
You just made that up haven't you? Nobody here says that DDG is the reason Antony is 1 dimensional, Martial is always injured and Sancho is afraid to put in a shift.
What they are sayin is that due to DDG cowardice and inability to catch a basic cross we have to set up deeper in order to compensate for his weakness. As a result our who set up is lower which in the modern game invites pressure from the get go. Hence our absolutely pathetic away record against the Top 10.
As for the FA cup final: The main criticism of DDG is his constant hoofing it to the opposition in this case City who are the best team in the world at keeping the ball.
Going by that logic we are already at a disadvantage from the get go. In moments like these you want City to see as little of the ball as possible. So what does DDG do in all of this?
Does he follow the Onana route where he plays it short, bypassing the press and start attacks/counter attacks? Or does he just aimlessly hoofs it to the opposition giving them a gift and another reason to start an attack.
Do you see how this puts us under unnecessary pressure?
The modern game is more than just shot stopping. The modern game is also keeping possesion so you can prevent the oppo team from having those shots to begin with.
You just made that up haven't you? Nobody here says that DDG is the reason Antony is 1 dimensional, Martial is always injured and Sancho is afraid to put in a shift.
What they are sayin is that due to DDG cowardice and inability to catch a basic cross we have to set up deeper in order to compensate for his weakness. As a result our who set up is lower which in the modern game invites pressure from the get go. Hence our absolutely pathetic away record against the Top 10.
The very thing you deny anyone saying is what you yourself are saying, except for the part about Martial being injured -- clearly no one blames De Gea for that.
The last thing we want to become is a longball, Route One club. Yes, it's a good thing to have a longball game in our quiver but when Salah gets a perfect long ball from Alisson, Salah still has 50 yards of space and 2-3 defenders to beat before beating the keeper. Salah is, I submit, a substantially better attacking player than anyone on our squad and it's NOT Alisson who makes Salah the goalscoring machine that he is.
De Gea's "inability to catch a basic cross" has nothing to do with our own poor finishing on goal this season. Low block defenses can unlock attacks but attacking players have to pull their own weight when we regain possession of the ball. But apparently --"as a result"-- it's all De Gea's fault.
The better criticism of De Gea is that at least two of his passes directly led goals conceded. The pass to Eriksen against Brentford, which I do blame De Gea entirely for picking that pass; and the pass to Maguire against Sevilla, which was entirely Maguire's fault except for the daft decision to pass the ball to Maguire, who has beyond disastrous the last two seasons. Both were poor decisions by De Gea and both are powerful evidence in the case against De Gea. But once De Gea passes the ball either fullback, then they look to make another pass out of the back and eventually we reach the opponent's Zone 13, 14 and 15 and we start shitting our pants, it is beyond absurd to blame the breakdown in the play on the keeper.
The pathetic away record is not all on -- cue the word "hence"-- De Gea. We got torn apart by Liverpool and City, and by Brentford (17 goals from those 3 games), but our back line got torn apart. As to why, the answer is complicated but it doesn't all come down to De Gea and to make the argument that it does -- "hence" is conclusive evidence of pure agenda.