It’s also a mark against some of his contemporaries you mention to not win outside convenient situations where you have time and can build. Also your use of “world class” is biased with hindsight.
Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?
- Thread starter Irrational.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Well I guess that given the high line and dominating possession that it requires, you can't have players who frequently make errors passing because it can leave you too vulnerable on the counter, being able to control possession to the degree he likes, which means more time spent in the opposition half and less time chasing the ball, therefore keeping your players fitter, requires a high degree of technical skill. It also requires having players capable of magic to break through opposition defences that sit back, there's plenty of games where without de bruyne being able to unlock the defence or hit in a thunderbolt they don't take the lead.
But maybe it works with lesser players, but the only time we've seen pep try it in his debut at City, it didn't result in a titleand needed 300m more
There’s plenty of games also that either Bernardo or Gundogan bailed city out of trouble when KDB didn’t. The aforementioned names have similarly talented players in Europe and England. Focusing on one bad season at city while highlighting contemporaries’ great seasons only shows bias on your part.
Well it's the only season in his career bar maybe his last at Barca, where he didn't have the strongest side in the league. I'd like to have a wider data set to choose from but there isn't one.
You do realise the point abiut barnardo or gundogan backs up my point, pep's system requires world class players because with average players they won't have the ability to break down teams that sit back
How is this thread still open to debate? He conclusively isn’t the greatest manager of all time. He isn’t even the greatest manager of the premier league era. Let alone in the world, ever.
I’d be stunned if you ever obtained a reasoned and meaningful retort, because there isn’t one and he knows it.
He’s about to lose a few players this summer… let’s see how he replaces them. Hope Walker goes to Bayern. Sick of seeing him and his only trait which is his pace.
He's alresdy gotten a reply, it requires a certain type of player to break down defences, to retain possession, a high degree of technical skill, it's one thing playing a high line with lots of pressing with incredible players in every position but doing it with average players makes you more likely to get hit on the counter, to make mistakes, playing out from the back is far riskier with average players as we can see with de gea in goal. And even Spain in 2010, while they won their games, without having Messi and Dani Alves like at Barca, you ended up with a lot of possession but very little chance creation. These are some of the reasons, so maybe you can leave the smug posts off
it's tactically simple/lazy systems that needs the larger amount of great individual talents to be successful at the top level. Guardiola's system is at its core about understanding and controlling space on the pitch. It needs tactically intelligent players, but not ones with great natural ability and technique. The whole idea of meticulously working on positioning for pressing/passing lanes and overloads/compactness of the lines is to take the need for hollywood style individual heroics and difficult individual actions in general down to a minimum, until near the box.
This is why it's so dominant when used with squads that do have great quality. Much more of the basics in controlling the pitch are covered with systemic geometric precision that exceeds other managers, so when you add in a great squad that can consistently pull off the difficult individual improvisatory stuff that can't ever be fully eliminated from the game, you get a dominant playstyle for the highest level. That said, i don't believe it would have been possible to continually refine his ideas to the extent he has with the resources coaches of the last century had. The level of analysis available that goes into refining these systems simply wasn't available back then in the sport.
This is why it's so dominant when used with squads that do have great quality. Much more of the basics in controlling the pitch are covered with systemic geometric precision that exceeds other managers, so when you add in a great squad that can consistently pull off the difficult individual improvisatory stuff that can't ever be fully eliminated from the game, you get a dominant playstyle for the highest level. That said, i don't believe it would have been possible to continually refine his ideas to the extent he has with the resources coaches of the last century had. The level of analysis available that goes into refining these systems simply wasn't available back then in the sport.
See I don't know about it only requiring tactical intelligence. I mean it needs physically gifted full backs to add width, players who are able to get up and down the pitch, becusse he doesn't play with traditional wingers, an average full back without the kind of speed and fitness you have with Alves or walker or the like. You need players who won't lose possession, who can play out from the back. If you tried it with our goalkeeper and defenders you'd see a ton of mistakes leading to goals, you need somewhat press resistant midfielders. It requires a high level off technical ability to maintain possession, high levels of fitness to keep up the level of pressing and incredibly gifted players to break down the low block that otherwise would be so effective agaisnt this playstyle
Guardiola system can be played at any level of football. It just need proper coaching. For example Maurizio Sarris Napoli was near exact copy of the Peps Barcelona playstyle. Sarri did that in two seasons with mostly players that left from the Benitez era at the club. Roberto De Zerbi did it at even lowest level in Serie B with Benevento before he went to Sassuolo. I am giving specifically examples from Italy because you know Peps football cannot be played there as pundits and former coaches claim. I really hope Guardiolas next destination after City to be exactly there just to shut them all up..
Of course it can be played with any level of players, it just won't have anything like the same kind of success, I think people attributing the success to his system rather than the quality of players are wrong.
What structure? City had the 3rd oldest squad in the PL before Pep came in, I feel people see some names and completely ignore this factor, they literally had the 3rd OLDEST squad in the PL in 15-16 season. Further more Txiki joined City 2012, from that time till 2016 he signed dross like Roberts, Mangala, Bony, Fernando, Jovetic, Navas, Demichelis, Garcia, Rodwell, Nastastic, Sinclair, etc Isn't it funny his transfer all of sudden changes when he was one of the best managers in the world known for his tactics and flextiability, development/improvement of players and with a manager like Pep you'll also attract some top players and as you win more you become more attractive destination and Pep is a winner at the end.
The structure will tell us more post Pep time (mind you they'll win titles, but not at this level or consistency), at the moment he is their struture.
Please check the names of the players in the RM team the year that Pep took over and tell me that Barca was the favourite to win that year except you are just convincing yourself otherwise. Bernardo and Fabinho came from the same Monaco side that wowed the world. Liverpool also have players like Thiago Alcantara - UCL winner with Bayern. Kovacic who I hear Man City is now chasing is similar in many respects to Gundogan. You can even mention Odegaard, Bruno, Pogba (who never really worked for us but did in the French national side), etc. Even Kante was world class in his role but not necessarily a ball player. I’m just telling you that ball players aren’t necessarily the best in their potions as against your views.
What I agree with you on is that he needs ball players do achieve his vision on the pitch but I disagree with you on the point that ball players are the best players. The ball playing keeper is not necessarily the best shot stopper e.g. Ederson. The ball playing defenders are not necessarily the best defenders, the ball playing forwards aren’t necessarily the best scorers, the best ball playing midfielders are not necessarily the best midfielders. They can get caught out and they can be very poor defensively. The best wing backs or full backs aren’t necessarily the ball playing ones.
Something else that Fergie had to deal with and others in the discussion that Pep doesn't anymore, is the limited options to change games. 3 subs, limits on foreign players. Add to that the fact the Premiership was not the number one league in the world through the 90s and much of the 00s United achievements in 99 were far and above greater than Citys in 23 as well as Peps success with Barcelona.
Are you serious? Even after the next yyearwhen they signed Ronaldo, Kaka, benzema, along and albiol, Madrid still weren't favourites. You really think they had a better side than Barca in 08/09? You're dreaming
Why do you overrate City players so much? A typical starting lineup from that season you talk about when they got 100 points included Otamendi, Delph, Fernandinho, Sané and sometimes Jesus. In what world are those players considered world class or shown to be world class once they moved. It also had Ederson, Stones and Walker who were scoffed at when they made the move as overpriced and overrated. Danilo and Mangala were getting game time for goodness sake. De Bruyne, the two Silvas, Kompany and Agüero were brilliant but the rest were either good players looking in sync or in cases like Delph, players no one at the top would take at the time. Why do you continue peddling this line that they always have world class players in every position? The only explanation I can guess is that you assume that whoever wins at the end must be world class and was destined to regardless which seems to be your hindsight take on the Barcelona side.
Arsenal just finished this season in a remarkable fashion (forget that they had to bow out to a treble winning team) beating the likes of infallible Liverpool to gain entrance to UCL after a long wait. You could see certain aspects of Pep’s methods on a display by that Arsenal side. If you expected Arsenal to be in a tussle with city at any point last season, let me see your hands up.
Again I counsel you my dear brother/sister to use hindsight sparingly. They had just won the previous two la liga titles. Try and check the names of the players in RM squad then come back to me.
Fernandinho was a great player, I've no idea why you'd include him as not being great. I guess if you just base your opinion on players being scoffed at then there's not much point in this discussion. Carrick wasn't a good player becusse he was criticised when he joined for not being what we needed, Ronaldo was called a showpony so it obviously didn't help to have him in your team. Vidic and evra were criticised when they joined so they weren't good players. Ffs you seem desperate to defend pep, using what people said at the time to justify players not actually helping that much
So what? How can you even try and pretend that no matter what they won, they were a better side than one with Messi, xavi and iniesta.Again I counsel you my dear brother/sister to use hindsight sparingly. They had just won the previous two la liga titles. Try and check the names of the players in RM squad then come back to me.
Because you are relying on hindsight to make that call. Casillas, Ramos, Pepe, Cannavaro (theworld cup winner), Marcelo, Salgado, Guti, Robben, Sneijder, Raul, Higuain, Robinho, Van Nilsterooy, etc were what the guys they were up against. In fact Barca fans were going to crazy against their management for allowing a rookie manage their affairs after Pep’s first two games when he got only one point.
And you're basically saying you can't revise your opinion in the face of new information which is stupidity, if you stay rigidly welded to the same opinion that you had in 2008 even though you've seen the quality of those players then that's bizarre.
Were Germany the best side at euro 08 even though Spain played everyone off the park just because they were the favourites?
Were bayern not the best side in the world in 12-13 just because they weren't favourites forthe champions league?
You might have a point if xavi, iniesta and Messi had done nothing before Pep and nothing after Pep, but they did, so the quality was clearly in the players and not down to his system
Not sure what your examples of Bayern/Spain and Germany/Spain NTs achieve but my point is that those guys were groomed to have the reputation they now have. For example no one thought that Busquests would be the best deep lying playmaker when Pep ditched Yaya for him but he turned out to be that way. The new information of Busquets now being a midfield icon would not erase the fact of the perception at the time he was given that trust.
He was a very good player, not great.
The distinction is important because your argument is implicitly based on scarcity. That there are few of these types of players. That the entity with most money can acquire them, hoard them, and thus have an enormous advantage over anyone else.
We are telling you that the players aren't that scarce. Certainly not the ones Manchester City signed.
The examples are that you're saying pep didn't have the best side becusse they weren't the favourites going into the season.
But Spain were clearly a better side than Germany in 2008 no matter who was favourite
Bayern were the best side in the world in 12/13 no matter that they weren't the favourites
Busquets has proven himself one of the greatest midfielders ever, for club and country and he didn't fall off a cliff without pep
De bruyne, haaland, aguero, David Silva, Bernardo Silva, dias, and yes fernandinho (and now rodri) all are absolutely scarce players, we've been looking for a solid defensive midfielder for ten years now and only goy lucky that Madrid were willing to part with casemiro
World class players in every position like Zinchenko Delph Akanji Stones Ake
Delph is fsir enough but the others are all very good players particular given they weren't first choice. Look at the difference zinchenko made at arsenal this year and Jesus before his injury, these were second fiddle players that went in and became starters at the side that were runner up to city this year
We stole Alexis Sanchez from their hands - how did that go? Maybe if he had succeeded at City you’d scream “cheating.” We got RonaldoII right from their hands - how did it go as well? We had earlier tried to make Di Maria and Cavani work but we got little success. How did Lukaku go when we had every opportunity to be serious about getting Haaland. How did Pogba go? Yes I know you will have forgotten that there was a long thread stating how that Pogba was just as talented as De Bruyne and one proof that was being cited was the fact that he was a major part of the World Cup win. Rodri was bought by city when they missed out on signing Jorginho as Chelsea cashed in on their relationship with his former manager and got a hold of him. Rodri and Partey came from the same squad and though both played in similar spaces, there was no clear opinion as to who was better because both had their strengths. Fast forward to a few years time and Rodri is being touted as arguable the best DM available now. It tells you that you need not be fixated on a players stick. There is such a thing as coaching also.
Well I dont ever scream cheating, except for the 115 charges where city have been cheating. But tbh I assume that at this point with their success they probably have enough legitimate revenue. Tbh I think Ronaldo would have been much better at city than here, but that's because finishing off chances in a team that creates so much more is definitely an easier job.
You seem to be under the impression that I'm saying pep is rubbish, he's clearly a great coach, but with the resources he's had, I'm not going to be calling him the greatest of all time for winning trophies with teams that you'd very much expect it. That's why so many praise fergie's last title, won with a squad of aging players and average youngsters, winning the pl with that side was definitely more difficult than doing it with our 06-09 side or treble winning side.
And in all cases you mention, Fergie deserves a lot of credit for nurturing potential in players and making them fit into what he was doing. He did not buy ready made world class players and just let them do their thing which is how you seem to view football. It sounds like to you, whatever players do on the pitch was going to happen regardless of who is managing them. I, and few others are using the hindsight argument and what was scoffed at to show that the world class-ness of these players was not evident, whereas there was clearly talent as a manager can't wave a magic wand, that talent needed to be properly used. That doesn't apply to everybody obviously as the likes of Cristiano or Messi for example are too talented and were destined for greatness almost no matter what. But for the majority of the rest, it's just not the case as you can see with how they performed before or after or for their international sides. That doesn't mean the manager is solely responsible, but it does mean that the manager's work in that scenario can't be discounted. It just can't be taken seriously when you keep repeating this line over and over again about world class players without defining what you actually mean by a world class player apart from them winning things.
Their talent is undeniable but to dismiss the coaching is criminal. If a player performs well at national team level that’s no guarantee that he’d do well at club level. Maybe we should hear from the man himself. Xavi said: “I never got noticed at Barça until Pep became my coach. Van Gaal gave me my debut but when he left in 2001 it changed and if you look at the record books it's laughable because I almost became obsolete. I was mocked as the being the guy who just moved the ball from one side of the pitch to the other.”
There are many many players with talent who never had the right training, coaching, mentorship, etc to fulfill their potential. Hence you cannot dismiss Pep’s role in Xavi becoming the guy we know him to be today.
You say cristiano or Messi, but surely that applies to xavi and iniesta as well, maybe not busquets at a push. But the 2008 world player of the year, Barcelona had 4 players in the top 10, the only other side to even have 2 was Liverpool, then 4 other teams had one each. Surely that indicates the talent in that team? Pep only managed them for 2 months that were eligible for voting (if that, I saw the shortlist was on 29 October, but it doesn't say when voting closed)
Xavi was top 5 in the ballon d'or in 2008 and top 5 world player of the year. I feel as though he may have had some ability even before Pep coached him
I don’t have issues with you highlighting SAF’s records. In my opinion he is the great one but among the current bunch I still opine that Pep is clear.
I just don't see how you can have him ahead of Klopp. Liverpool finished 6th the season before he took over, he didn't have anything like the resources of pep or as strong a side, he spent less and had a worse team and went toe to toe with this dominant city side. If he'd have been able to bring 50m substitutes off the bench like pep could regularly I'd say he'd have won 2 more league titles. Hes also reached 3 champions league finals
Players can have their performance affected by different factors. It was said that Pogba was a monster when he played for France but it never really really worked out for him here. Despite Xavi’s accolades you tend to forget that he had real struggles at club level. He could easily have gone on the wrong tangent because confidence is such an important factor in football so the importance of a coach was needed to allow his talent blossom.
I know you only said 'maybe' but this is what people mean when they say you use 'hindsight' too much.
Guardiola's last season at Barcelona was 11/12.
Barcelona added Cesc Fabregas and Alexis Sanchez to their squads, as well as moving Thiago up from the B team. They sold Bojan, Jeffrén, and Maxwell.
Real Madrid added Fabio Coentrao, Raphael Varane, Nuri Sahin, Jose Callejón, and Hamit Altintop to their squad, and moved on Pedro Leon, Sergio Canales, and Ezequiel Garay.
Neither Varane nor Sahin nor Altintop had any meaningful role that season, they played less than 1000 minutes each. Callejón only played 1300. So really the main addition was Fabio Coentrao.
You can't possibly tell me that the addition of Fabio Coentrao to Real Madrid not only offset the additions of Fabregas and Sanchez to Barcelona, but actually tipped the scales to Real Madrid's favor in terms of squad quality.
The only possible reason to think "Barcelona didn't have the strongest side" is "they didn't win the title."
I think anyone who'd taken over Barca that summer would have seen what xavi and iniesta did for Spain, and utilised them, they'd have been foolish not to. Maybe other managers would have taken longer to start playing busquets but as talented as he was he'd have broken through at some point. He made good decisions as Barca manager, but he unquestionably had one of the most talented squads ever to work with. If he'd made the same decisions but had no xavi, iniesta or Messi he'd have been forgotten pretty quickly. You can't remove the quality of the squad from his success