Fluminese and the Relationism Tactical Revolution

[Hoof the ball]

There's an ever increasing movement of teams shifting towards the opposite end of the tactical spectrum away from strict positional play (ala Guardiola, Sarri, etc) and more towards chaotic approaches that favour more individual expression and classical Brazilian ideas of the game.

Fluminese are leading the pack with some interesting stuff right now :-


However, Football Meta did a good job with explaining positional play vs relational play and a really good section on Fluminese too.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

Unstructured and loads of players close to one another, isn’t this just Ole-ball?

I kid, I kid

 

[zaafi]

Isn't there a thread on this already?

 

[VP89]

This is really interesting. Couldn't have picked a better user title to create the thread too.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Looks like a bad idea and easily exploited and seems like it hasn't had any actual success. Stinks a little of trying to be different for the sake of it.

 

[Plant0x84]

How long has Ian Beale played for Fluminese?

edit - oh wait, is he the coach?,

 

[Livewire1974]

Absolute horseshit. Football is all about creating space.

 

[Attila]

they won't be winning the champions league playing like that

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Absolute horseshit. Football is all about creating space.

Not only does that fail to do so for them it also makes it easy for a decent team to find space against them. It would never work at the top level. They would get swarmed off the ball on their little congested area then the play would be switched and they would lose every game 4-0.

The ultimate football hipster nonsense that has had minimal success in the Brizilian league.

 

[Cheimoon]

they won't be winning the champions league playing like that

Of course not, they don't play in Europe. I figured someone had to take the bait.

 

[Chipper]

Enjoyed watching the football they play in that video more than 99% of the football I've seen in the past 5-10 years.

Mind you, I mostly watch United. Still, I'm not really a fan of recent tactical trends. The game has become boring to me. This was refreshing to see.

 

[Hoof the ball]

This is really interesting. Couldn't have picked a better user title to create the thread too.

It always amuses me that folks see my username as a tacit endorsement of long ball.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

Honestly, sat through both those videos and I couldn’t really take them seriously when they started describing one-two’s, give and go’s and diagonals. A diagonal, so basically that goal Keane, Yorke and Cole scored at the Nou Camp in 1998? Revolutionary stuff.

And the unique stuff Fluminese do like not stretching play using width just feels naive to me.

 

[stevoc]

Not sure this is the future but it's good to see new ideas emerging. Anything that helps football get over Guardiola boreball is positive.

 

[Chipper]

Only watched the first vid so far and they mentioned that people had been talking about him as a potential Brazil manager. Just read his wikipedia article and he's now got it on an interim basis for 1 year. Still managing Fluminese at the same time by the looks of it.

 

[Ole's screen]

How weird that when Ole was doing this he was a tactical dinosaur and couldn’t coach patterns of play, but when it’s a fancy Brazilian manager it’s the new trend and we give them fancy worlds like “relationism”.

 

[do.ob]

I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. I'd need to see it play out to judge it. As the videos pointed out it looks like a silly concecpt at surface level - compared to European football. But who knows how it would play out in real life. Old concepts tend to make a comeback every now and then. Man to man defending for example was deemed outdated for a while, then coaches started using it progressively on the entire pitch to disrupt the opposition. Maybe this has a similar effect: players in Europe mostly get drilled in repetitive patters that aim to have players think less on the pitch and focus more on execution, who knows how they would cope with an opponent that breaks those patterns and creates a game of improvisation, by overloading different spaces, seemingly at random. Suddenly requiring to think for themselves again.

How weird that when Ole was doing this he was a tactical dinosaur and couldn’t coach patterns of play, but when it’s a fancy Brazilian manager it’s the new trend and we give them fancy worlds like “relationism”.

Because he wasn't doing the same? Apparently they built a team to perfectly suit this approach and made a conscious choice to reject the highly structured European way in favour of a more individualistic approach, that seems to actually include certain patters, but executed in much less narrow framework. Solskjaer tried to have his team play European football, he just failed at it.

 

[Hound Dog]

I thought that Argentina making Maradona their manager was the bane of national team managerial appointments, but Brazil may have just outdone them by appointing this guy.

It is only for a year, though, so he is not likely to be in charge for the next World Cup.

 

[Ole's screen]

I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. I'd need to see it play out to judge it. As the videos pointed out it looks like a silly concecpt at surface level - compared to European football. But who knows how it would play out in real life. Old concepts tend to make a comeback every now and then. Man to man defending for example was deemed outdated for a while, then coaches started using it progressively on the entire pitch to disrupt the opposition. Maybe this has a similar effect: players in Europe mostly get drilled in repetitive patters that aim to have players think less on the pitch and focus more on execution, who knows how they would cope with an opponent that breaks those patterns and creates a game of improvisation, by overloading different spaces, seemingly at random. Suddenly requiring to think for themselves again.



Because he wasn't doing the same? Apparently they built a team to perfectly suit this approach and made a conscious choice to reject the highly structured European way in favour of a more individualistic approach, that seems to actually include certain patters, but executed in much less narrow framework. Solskjaer tried to have his team play European football, he just failed at it.

Sounds like us under Ole. We never really tried to be a positional play team (which is what they mean by modern European style) under him. It was all about fast transitions, give and go’s in midfield (which is a core tenet of relationism) and being “brave” on the ball.
None of this has anything to do with his firing or me advocating he should be our manager. I actually think ETH is a nice blend of the European positional play coupled with more individual play and flexible positioning.

 

[tenpoless]

It's how United played when the left hand side was so overloaded with players. I'd rather not to see that type of football ever again. If that's relationism, let's not have relationships.

 

[DrRodo]

Please let something like this take over fecking tiki taka. I watch quite a lot of copa libertadores matches and fluminense are great, very entertaining to watch!

 

[Tincanalley]

Also known as dizzy-chickenball … I was a master of it in my younger days.

 

[Bobski]

We need something that breaks the possession play meta. With everything being data and analytics driven you end up with homogenized styles of play, which essentially massively benefits the teams with the higher level of talent.

 

[In Rainbows]

My god, we really do have some close minded people in here huh? That and people who have no comprehension skills. Completely dismissing this based on nonsense. As if Brazilian coaches did not think of exploiting space against them. And as if Ole actually played the same football just because it has the keyword "individualistic."

 

[BobFromParva]

Hats off to hoof the ball, it’s a fascinating topic.
So many pep-alikes and pep-disciples amongst the top PL managers nowadays so I’m intrigued as to whether this will be the next step, the post pep-ball chaos.
I kinda hope it is because I recon we need more stylistic contrast, something beyond low-block counter attack vs possession football.

 

[simonhch]

What interests me most is how this approach embraces the old school number 10, giving him the platform to flourish. Those players who are real artists of the game, not autómata.

Thank you @Hoof The Ball for posting this. Not surprised there have been a lot of dismissive responses, but the attempts to relate it to Ole Ball are pretty ignorant.

I would love to see a highly evolved version of relationism, with high quality players, go up against a positional play system of equal quality. I suspect the relationism would get found out, but it’d be fascinating to find out.

 

[Zed is not dead]

What interests me most is how this approach embraces the old school number 10, giving him the platform to flourish. Those players who are real artists of the game, not autómata.

Thank you @Hoof The Ball for posting this. Not surprised there have been a lot of dismissive responses, but the attempts to relate it to Ole Ball are pretty ignorant.

I would love to see a highly evolved version of relationism, with high quality players, go up against a positional play system of equal quality. I suspect the relationism would get found out, but it’d be fascinating to find out.

I think what comes closest to it in terms of European football would be Real Madrid under Zidane or Ancelotti.

They had their teams play mostly based on players that combined high football IQ and high technical level.
They had some patterns of play of course, but mostly some sort of free flowing football allowed by the genius of their midfield and offensive players.

I’d love to see football back to the days of the number 10. They made me fall in love with the game in the first place

 

[simonhch]

I think what comes closest to it in terms of European football would be Real Madrid under Zidane or Ancelotti.

They had their teams play mostly based on players that combined high football IQ and high technical level.
They had some patterns of play of course, but mostly some sort of free flowing football allowed by the genius of their midfield and offensive players.

I’d love to see football back to the days of the number 10. They made me fall in love with the game in the first place

Agreed. Imagine a world in which we didn’t grow up watching players like Laudrup, Bergkamp, Riquelme, Cantona, Baggio, Del Piero, Hagi etc. Some of those would have been repurposed to inside forwards, but others simply wouldn’t have flourished in their natural iterations in the modern positional play systems. And that is sad. Watching players like that saunter around the pitch finding pockets of space and doing magical things with the ball, is what made me fall in love with the game. Not stats like “most ground covered”. It makes you wonder about the sort of artistic talents we’ve missed out on over the last decade.

Even on a more regional level, the PL was richer for having players like Le Tissier. Who wouldn’t stand a chance at fitting in a PL system these days, but you always knew whenever you played Southampton that you were at risk of conceding a Le Tissier wonder goal. Pull up his highlights on YouTube and he has one of the greatest collection of top ten goals of any player ever.

I feel thankful that I lived through an era where those types of players still had a place in the game. I’m all for any tactical revolution that brings them back. It makes you wonder where players like Ronaldinho, Rivaldo and even Maradona would fit in today. Players who are so good that they would end up being inside forwards, but also players that you know you saw the best of because they were tactically and positionally unrestrained.

Edit: Zico!!!!

 

[glaspalast]

There is no perfect football tactic.

There is no perfect XI.

Overloading here means underloading there.

The more rigid the drill, the better a canny opponent can subvert them.

Its easy to fit Le Tissier into a team.
You play 4-4-1 plus Le Tissier.
The problem is fitting 2 or 3 into a team.

 

[Hoof the ball]

.

What interests me most is how this approach embraces the old school number 10, giving him the platform to flourish. Those players who are real artists of the game, not autómata.

Thank you @Hoof The Ball for posting this. Not surprised there have been a lot of dismissive responses, but the attempts to relate it to Ole Ball are pretty ignorant.

I would love to see a highly evolved version of relationism, with high quality players, go up against a positional play system of equal quality. I suspect the relationism would get found out, but it’d be fascinating to find out.

Have you ever heard these comments by Ginola before? I highly, highly recommend anyone who hasn't to give it a quick watch. He's almost brought to tears talking about how individual creativity is being replaced by systemic developments in the game. This was over four years ago, I think.

Brilliant video.

 

[simonhch]

.


Have you ever heard these comments by Ginola before? I highly, highly recommend anyone who hasn't to give it a quick watch. He's almost brought to tears talking about how individual creativity is being replaced by systemic developments in the game. This was over four years ago, I think.

Brilliant video.

He is spot on. We have almost completely eliminated the spontaneous creativity and magic that made many of us fall in the love with game. The entertainment value has fallen. Watching City for example, a brilliantly drilled, ruthlessly efficient machine, but it feels all so rehearsed and soulless. Working the same patterns of play over and over again.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

He is spot on. We have almost completely eliminated the spontaneous creativity and magic that made many of us fall in the love with game. The entertainment value has fallen. Watching City for example, a brilliantly drilled, ruthlessly efficient machine, but it feels all so rehearsed and soulless. Working the same patterns of play over and over again.

I seem to remember that Pep's Barca were quite often entertaining as well as well-drilled, which they of course were.
Am I remembering wrong?

His Bayern and City sides are much more robotic,
But I think that Barca with Iniesta, Alves, Messi... weren't they also fun to watch?

 

[simonhch]

I seem to remember that Pep's Barca were quite often entertaining as well as well-drilled, which they of course were.
Am I remembering wrong?

His Bayern and City sides are much more robotic,
But I think that Barca with Iniesta, Alves, Messi... weren't they also fun to watch?

They were, but they also had a player in Messi who transcended positional systems. You take Messi out of that time, and whilst it remains preposterously gifted, it becomes more robotic. I think it’s also fair to say that the way that midfield operated, was at times incredibly robotic in its ability to strangle the opposition through endless possession.

 

[adexkola]

Bump.

Valid bump too, given that it's a Relationism vs Positionism showdown tonight (in Jeddah)

City are overwhelmingly the favorites (as is every European team in this competition) but it will be interesting to see if Diniz and his team can sting Pep and co in a few moments of the game using these relational concepts.

 

[matherto]

They'll get battered 5-0

 

[adexkola]

They'll get battered 5-0

Possibly!

 

[adexkola]

What interests me most is how this approach embraces the old school number 10, giving him the platform to flourish. Those players who are real artists of the game, not autómata.

Thank you @Hoof The Ball for posting this. Not surprised there have been a lot of dismissive responses, but the attempts to relate it to Ole Ball are pretty ignorant.

I would love to see a highly evolved version of relationism, with high quality players, go up against a positional play system of equal quality. I suspect the relationism would get found out, but it’d be fascinating to find out.

@simonhch @Hoof the ball if you're interested in some light Friday reading I recommend the following articles:

https://medium.com/@stirlingj1982/what-is-relationism-c98d6233d9c2

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/t...-in-functional-play-tactical-analysis-tactics

Regarding the bolded, seeing how traditional number 10s are undervalued in today's prevailing frameworks, there's a huge opportunity for clubs who intend to align themselves in this direction (sourcing talent, branding, etc)

 

[giorno]

Bump.

Valid bump too, given that it's a Relationism vs Positionism showdown tonight (in Jeddah)

It's not gonna be that. It's going to be a parked bus playing for penalties with the occasional attempt to nick one on the counter vs City

 

[adexkola]

It's not gonna be that. It's going to be a parked bus playing for penalties with the occasional attempt to nick one on the counter vs City

Let me dream alright???

 

[Champ]

Playing this way would only work if you had good ball players across the team.
Certainly the likes of Uniteds current midfield would struggle massively.

Also, Flu seem to concede as many as they score, suggesting a major issue when the ball is lost.

Expecting over three goals for City today, be surprised if it's any less.