What about the 38 games in Serie A where they went 16-8-14 and finished upper midtable?.
Fluminese and the Relationism Tactical Revolution
- Thread starter Hoof the ball
- Start date
In fact, they're far from the best team in Brazil, probably not even top 5. They had a very convenient run in Libertadores(they beat Boca in the final, but the Argentines are far from their golden era; they reached the final without winning any game in the knockout stages). Diniz is fiercely criticized here, even before his poor effort with the Seleção.
For sure I like his ideals and style but it feels like he's trying to throwback to a time football has moved past and will exposed time and again for naivety. Its admirable but foolhardy.
Yeah only needed to commit financial fraud and cheat the system to be able to ‘school’ a Brazilian team.
Football is about feelings not results. Bielsa greatest EPL manager all time.
Exactly. People can brag about the difference of the quality of the squads or how more expensive the City one is as much as they want but the reality is the Brazilian team lost the game already with the way they wanted to play..very brave but very naive and not up to the reality of the real football standards of today..
You can't put forward "reality" and end your post with a blanket statement like " "not up to the reality of the real football standards".
It's one game, against literally the best team in the world. It's not enough to completely bury this idea forever. If anything, the fact they were in this position to play against the best team of the world, should be enough to inspire other coach to experiment with this idea and see what they can do with it.
I personally don't think it's going to be effective in modern football and I actually agree with you but Fluminense results are intriguing enough to make coach around the world at least consider this a viable path to experiment with.
Let's say you are completely dominated, you have 30 minutes to completely change a game, I'd like to see teams try something else than "let's play with 5 forwards and hoof the ball in the box"
Why people mention Bielsa here 
One of Guardiola's biggest influences...
One of Guardiola's biggest influences...
I can respect what theyre doing. Against City even if you setup identically like them youd still lose due to their quality and depth anyway. Feck Pep and his overly systematical lineups. He managed to get this far not only because of tactics but becaus he has the best squad in the world
I'm not here to argue if it's a successful tactic or not, I just thought it would be fun to mention in this context. And of course, fun that coaches are trying something new.
Série A is a very competitive league: it's very hard to get away wins.
Their squad is also nothing special and their main players are all veterans, which brings consistency down a bit.
If you add these ingredients and mix them with an overloaded schedule (if you go far in all competitions, you'll make about 80 to 90 official Marches in 9 months) and it's easier to understand why competing in Estaduais+ Serie A + CONMEBOL is hard.
Reminds me of a tactic you’d use in a 5s tournament not 11 a side (well not if you’re hoping to win stuff and be taken seriously)
For sure, I agree with you wholly.
It's fascinating to see these theories gain traction, I hasten to use the term 'new' ideas, as these ideals and thought processes have been around for ages but I guess tactics progress as football does.
Bielsa embraced chaos and individual freedom, just look at his Leeds side, wasn't always the case, his Bilboa side was quite regimented but certainly his latter stages leading up to Leeds was based in a similar fashion to what's being discussed here.Why people mention Bielsa here
One of Guardiola's biggest influences...
Didn’t know he also trained Rocky. What a man, footballing genius, and a boxing legend too
I love how much effort people put into these types of videos. Lots of people putting out pretty well thought out stuff
I feel like chaos with good individual players has always been a good answer to Guardiola's style.
There is a reason Liverpool had our number for a long time early in his tenure until they started trying to match our control, and also Ole had a pretty good record against us
There is a reason Liverpool had our number for a long time early in his tenure until they started trying to match our control, and also Ole had a pretty good record against us
Watching yesterday, I think Diniz is doing a great job at Fluminense. They just haven't got the legs! Would be nice to see how he fares with a younger, fresher squad. They really had no chance against the well oiled, relatively youthful Premier league machine that is Pep's team.
Ten Hag has been watching this lot. 
The wingers are drifting over to each others side today.
The wingers are drifting over to each others side today.
No, that was just the impression given by an overall individually weak side competing against better/more talented teams. Even at Leeds his team was very structurally rigid. Chaos is what their opponents did to beat them
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Disagree entirely.
Bielsa liked his teams to attack fluidly and trusted them to make movements on their own rather then choreographed routines, very much in keeping with the tactical outlook being discussed. This often led to acts of complete randomness when attacking.
Also he expected his players to defend man for man, which led to an element of chaos also as you are relying on players winning individual duals rather then a structured rigid zonal space marking.
I'd say his Leeds team were well drilled but certainly not rigid.
No, Bielsa was even more rigid than Guardiola when it came to positional structures and occupation of spaces. His teams, including Leeds, very much played by memory
Correct, and it's where most of the chaos came from
They were very rigid in possession and in a way also oop, but "man-marking all over the pitch" was very easy to disorganize
What Guardiola took from Bielsa is not the rigidity of the system or not; he took the obsession about details that Bielsa has..
He also took several tactical concepts and wrinkles(not all of them originally Bielsa's either), and most importantly, learned the ropes of the job
I'm Not so sure, he seemed to allow his players freedom to roam when in possession, allowing them to roam near enough wherever they wanted.
Very much in line with what's being discussed for me, maybe slightly more structured but still with a huge element of individualism and chaos.
He's also turned Brazil into an abomination.
Lost to Argentina, Colombia, Uruguay, drew with Venezuela. 2 wins from 6 and only 7 points in SA Qualifiers. Theres a certain point where "He doesn't have the players doesn't cut it". He's tactically naive and while its nice to watch, he'll achieve nothing.
Not overly true. He's brought success to Fluminese.
He won the libertadores like a month ago mate