It doesn't matter per say. This message board doesn't reach. It's more pleasant on here with a friendly tone though.
Does it matter how we criticise footballers on this forum?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Genuine and consistent Football criticism are fair as long as people are willing to revise them if they are not true anymore. The rest is just genuinely moronic especially when it's generally completely made up, people imagining what someone they don't know thinks and does.
The personal stuff should definitely be left out. Stuff about weight, appearance, character, background etc. Also anything which presumes you know about the player's personal life, thoughts or personality.
I also think it's worth pausing for five seconds after you've written your post and considering whether it's more 'emotional' than talking about how some men kicked a ball around some grass really merits.
'I fecking hate PLAYER A, he's so shit he wouldn't even make it in the Championship and he shouldn't be anywhere near this club' is not only unnecessary but also doesn't really add anything for anyone reading it, other than cause arguments.
'His finishing is terrible, he's got a good engine but he doesn't have the positioning to make it count and I don't think he's up to United standard' is still just opinion but more based in concrete measurables, more interesting to read, and ultimately makes you sound like less of a dickhead.
I also think it's worth pausing for five seconds after you've written your post and considering whether it's more 'emotional' than talking about how some men kicked a ball around some grass really merits.
'I fecking hate PLAYER A, he's so shit he wouldn't even make it in the Championship and he shouldn't be anywhere near this club' is not only unnecessary but also doesn't really add anything for anyone reading it, other than cause arguments.
'His finishing is terrible, he's got a good engine but he doesn't have the positioning to make it count and I don't think he's up to United standard' is still just opinion but more based in concrete measurables, more interesting to read, and ultimately makes you sound like less of a dickhead.
I used to care about the names people called me, but then I grew a thicker skin. Recognised the noise for what it was and stopped caring. In saying that, I think theres a line. It's one thing to be screaming like a mad bastard during a match, everyone gets caught up in the emotions. It's another to go running to social media to call people "N*****" just because they missed a penalty. Theres also some separation between moaning in a forum like this, and going to someones personal twitter or Facebook to moan at them directly. Well, moan at their social media team anyway.
The problem that I see is the same problem with everything in social media. Theres a detachment from reality going on. People aren't seeing the human being. They just see a post and react to the words without ever considering who it is that they are talking to. Same thing with footballers. They aren't human, they're footballers. So we get to abuse them because they're footballers, not people. All the racism in football, especially main land Europe is waved away as banter. Like all that stuff with Vinicius Jr not long ago. It's ok to do that, cos hes just a footballer and it's just "banter". It's a complete disassociation of humanity from footballers. Like strangers on the internet, it's ok to abuse them because they're not really people. They are things. And thats never an ok mindset to have.
The problem that I see is the same problem with everything in social media. Theres a detachment from reality going on. People aren't seeing the human being. They just see a post and react to the words without ever considering who it is that they are talking to. Same thing with footballers. They aren't human, they're footballers. So we get to abuse them because they're footballers, not people. All the racism in football, especially main land Europe is waved away as banter. Like all that stuff with Vinicius Jr not long ago. It's ok to do that, cos hes just a footballer and it's just "banter". It's a complete disassociation of humanity from footballers. Like strangers on the internet, it's ok to abuse them because they're not really people. They are things. And thats never an ok mindset to have.
I think it matters more how the pundits and the tabloids criticise them, because they are more in the public eye.
For us as fans, I doubt it matters much unless you have a Twitter account with 100,000 followers. But even if we don't take the piss out of our own players, opponent fans will gladly do it because that is what they are supposed to do. Nothing really changes.
For us as fans, I doubt it matters much unless you have a Twitter account with 100,000 followers. But even if we don't take the piss out of our own players, opponent fans will gladly do it because that is what they are supposed to do. Nothing really changes.
Exactly this. Perhaps it's this kind of pressure that leads to someone like Mason Greenwood acting the way he is alleged to have done. We as onlookers have no idea the pressures, as a teenager, he may have been facing in his private life which perhaps culminated in him acting out of character.
I will say in relation to this, as I’ve literally ignored all aspects of it, that it’s easy to judge based on limited knowledge, without fully knowing the truth. It’s also easier to criticise than applying context, but that applies to all walks of life.
The pressures facing all players, but especially young ones, must have an affect on mental health. Hopefully stories like Dele will give some people food for thought before posting hate. Sadly I’m not sure it will.
I think it should be fine to have your own opinions and be honest when you think someone is or isn't part of a brighter future (in a certain tactic or at a certain level), and it's simply difficult to emphasize that we're all subjective in this crap, every single time.
I think what might be weighing more nowadays is not necessarily this generation being harsher or softer or anything, but while people could shout dookie all day in the past, too, there wasn't really this platform - let alone the many platforms of today - that had those things so permanently visible and directly contacted as there is today.
When players say 'I don't listen to the haters' or 'I try to avoid the tabloids' I think it's for pretty good reason. Because criticism can improve your game, but millions of people 'improving your game' is closer to mass bullying and you'll need incredibly thick skin.
Even regular folk have mental issues due to social media comparisons and abuse, let alone if you read and even receive that shit hourly. It's not like they're out to present divisive experimental film or something. Most of the time they're trying and even just trying to cope with all the attention. Imagine being an introvert, being in the limelight must be hell even if it's all positive feedback.
But this is also a place where we sort of play football manager, and it's healthy to know your limits (and positives) as a player. De Gea is a brilliant shot stopper but I'm sure he knows he's not a playmaking goalkeeper. Doesn't mean he needs to read he's destroying our future every day, no matter how much money the financial staff agreed to pay him.
And with all that, combined with stuff like PTSD (and the complexity of how trauma develops) and new developments on all types of mental health challenges like anxiety and even ADHD or autism-spectrum stuff, even stuff like 'lazy' isn't as easy to judge from the outside. Even the most skilled and experienced therapists have difficulty digging into many of their patients' psyches.
– Then again, joking about that in absurd manners is still funny? Stuff is weird.
And even joking aside, whether it's laziness or ADHD, if the end product isn't enough... top level sport is not exactly built around equality, some people are just born different or have the luck to be raised in better surroundings, having run into the teachers inspiring to them, etc etc.
I think what I'm trying to say is that I kind of lost track of my thought, but I also have ADHD.
I think what might be weighing more nowadays is not necessarily this generation being harsher or softer or anything, but while people could shout dookie all day in the past, too, there wasn't really this platform - let alone the many platforms of today - that had those things so permanently visible and directly contacted as there is today.
When players say 'I don't listen to the haters' or 'I try to avoid the tabloids' I think it's for pretty good reason. Because criticism can improve your game, but millions of people 'improving your game' is closer to mass bullying and you'll need incredibly thick skin.
Even regular folk have mental issues due to social media comparisons and abuse, let alone if you read and even receive that shit hourly. It's not like they're out to present divisive experimental film or something. Most of the time they're trying and even just trying to cope with all the attention. Imagine being an introvert, being in the limelight must be hell even if it's all positive feedback.
But this is also a place where we sort of play football manager, and it's healthy to know your limits (and positives) as a player. De Gea is a brilliant shot stopper but I'm sure he knows he's not a playmaking goalkeeper. Doesn't mean he needs to read he's destroying our future every day, no matter how much money the financial staff agreed to pay him.
And with all that, combined with stuff like PTSD (and the complexity of how trauma develops) and new developments on all types of mental health challenges like anxiety and even ADHD or autism-spectrum stuff, even stuff like 'lazy' isn't as easy to judge from the outside. Even the most skilled and experienced therapists have difficulty digging into many of their patients' psyches.
– Then again, joking about that in absurd manners is still funny? Stuff is weird.
And even joking aside, whether it's laziness or ADHD, if the end product isn't enough... top level sport is not exactly built around equality, some people are just born different or have the luck to be raised in better surroundings, having run into the teachers inspiring to them, etc etc.
I think what I'm trying to say is that I kind of lost track of my thought, but I also have ADHD.
These little introspective sessions are all well and good but you watch the next time Sancho (another player rumoured to be dealing with some heavy off field stuff) misplaces a pass this Wednesday, all will be forgotten and all bets off again.
There have been some interesting takes here on this matter, but it is concerning how little interest has been generated in the caf on such an important topic - only 48 posts in two days. Is this a reflecttion of the lack of empathy within todays football fans? And does it mean there will be no let-up in the abuse of footballers, which seems to have become an amusing pastime for the majority of posters?
It certainly does leave you curious. I think once a pattern of behaviour has been established, it can be hard to be self reflective. Especially as what some people class as banter others won’t tolerate. It would be cool if we could all be considerate, I’m just realistic enough to know others can’t always be, unfortunately mate.
About half the threads would probably disappear overnight if that happened!
Indeed but journalists in the mainstream media have been known to reference Redcafe in the past, so in some cases they are looking at how us fans view things, which in turn maybe reflected in what they publish
In my opinion, this is just human nature.
Many have pent up anger and when one is in a forum or platform with many others abusing the same entity (be it player, club, nation etc), it is easy to join the abuse. How vile the abuse is depends on many factors (how much pent up anger and the need to feel better about oneself, how good/bad someone’s upbringing and environment is etcetc).
Some of the abuse/criticism of a said entity may be true, but people tend to fall into a mental trap of “even if its not true, i dont care, i just want to abuse since most are doing the same and i feel good, i will convince myself it is true anyway”
Social media just compounded this human nature, andto make it worse for some people social media/specific forum is their life, so it is better to be “correct with the masses” in the said social media.
It(online mass communication platform) is both a boon and a curse of this human era.
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This is a good topic. I often hope players are not looking through various boards because very few players are being flattered. I try not to be too dismissive of players but there are some that bug me because I deem them as unprofessional. I fully realize I could be wrong in that assessment. It is dehumanizing because I have not considered what is going on with that player's personal life. We should all remember that these are all professionals vastly better at their trade than us fans and deserve a certain respect. They are not useless or garbage, I would have loved to earn a living playing week in week out but wasn't good enough. That doesn't mean they should be immune from criticism. A performance can be rightfully criticized when it is below the expected standard.
The over the top abuse and ridicule that is amplified by social media is obviously wrong. Any decent human being will acknowledge that as being wrong.
Been a member for a long time on this forum as I've supported United for 30+ years but refrained from posting for a long time because some people like to shite on your opinion. In the end of the day its just an opinion.
Nowadays I tend to post a bit more and If I get a shite response I just aknowledge it and move on. I can't be arsed to get into a screaming match or argument with anyone.
Nowadays I tend to post a bit more and If I get a shite response I just aknowledge it and move on. I can't be arsed to get into a screaming match or argument with anyone.
Honestly held opinion about a players performances or capabilities is fine. Abuse and personal insult aren't.
It wouldn't surprise me if players or at a minimum their families were lurking here and in other fan forums.
It wouldn't surprise me if players or at a minimum their families were lurking here and in other fan forums.
I think criticism of our own players from our fans that reads like opposition fans has probably crossed a line. Even unpopular players deserve some respect when employed by our club (unless they disrespect the club first).
Fellaini, Ronaldo, Lukaku, Pogba, Maguire, Sancho have all encouraged some strong criticisms. I’d prefer it if we stuck to discussions of player performances, although I do enjoy reading people sticking the boot in on Lukaku and Ronaldo.
It’s not as bad here as on other sites like Facebook, where supposed United fans insult our players and mock them mercilessly. We do tend to go for hyperbole. Even when our players are playing badly, I feel sympathy for them. Maguire, for instance, was stoked to play for United, and obviously wanted to win things here. His was not a successful spell at United. I don’t feel the need to make it personal, and I think it reflects badly on us, as fans, when we pile on a player.
Fellaini, Ronaldo, Lukaku, Pogba, Maguire, Sancho have all encouraged some strong criticisms. I’d prefer it if we stuck to discussions of player performances, although I do enjoy reading people sticking the boot in on Lukaku and Ronaldo.
It’s not as bad here as on other sites like Facebook, where supposed United fans insult our players and mock them mercilessly. We do tend to go for hyperbole. Even when our players are playing badly, I feel sympathy for them. Maguire, for instance, was stoked to play for United, and obviously wanted to win things here. His was not a successful spell at United. I don’t feel the need to make it personal, and I think it reflects badly on us, as fans, when we pile on a player.
On one hand you have fans complaining that players and clubs don’t communicate enough. On the other hand they try to do that in their social media accounts and get abuse, hatred, bigotry, homophobia, racism and downright toxic comments.
obviously I mean this in the general sense not just one club/player
obviously I mean this in the general sense not just one club/player
To some extent, yes our opinions on football players matters.
They are not gonna trawl Redcafe and read on how we think they should do this or that, BUT Journalist does. Maybe not Redcafe spesifically but most of them would trawl fans site, and gather formed opinion and get the pulse of what the fans are saying. A few nutters here and there won't matter, but we can safely assume that if Redcafe 70% don't like Maguire (performance wise) then the number would justify Journalist printing "Man UTD Fans don't like Maguire performance"
As a site we are a valid indication of many things.
So, to some extent each of our individual thoughts on players does matter.
They are not gonna trawl Redcafe and read on how we think they should do this or that, BUT Journalist does. Maybe not Redcafe spesifically but most of them would trawl fans site, and gather formed opinion and get the pulse of what the fans are saying. A few nutters here and there won't matter, but we can safely assume that if Redcafe 70% don't like Maguire (performance wise) then the number would justify Journalist printing "Man UTD Fans don't like Maguire performance"
As a site we are a valid indication of many things.
So, to some extent each of our individual thoughts on players does matter.
On the forum with maximum anonimity and hidden behind silly names?
Absofeckinglutely.
Fire away. Who the feck cares what some Dick on redcafe says anyway?
I love the CAF because of that, it's free speech, it's dumb, the puns and jokes are funny as feck, and for someone who's native language isn't english, I love reading it and absorbing shit.
Sure, there are knowledgeable posters, and I love reading that as well, but I find myself chuckling away to funny shit on the caf more then anywhere else on the world wide web.
Cherish that you cnuts.
Absofeckinglutely.
Fire away. Who the feck cares what some Dick on redcafe says anyway?
I love the CAF because of that, it's free speech, it's dumb, the puns and jokes are funny as feck, and for someone who's native language isn't english, I love reading it and absorbing shit.
Sure, there are knowledgeable posters, and I love reading that as well, but I find myself chuckling away to funny shit on the caf more then anywhere else on the world wide web.
Cherish that you cnuts.
Exactly the point I want to make.
Sometimes we forget that we are supporters. It doesn’t mean we should blindly cheer everyone with our red shirt, but there’s a constant lack of respect of our own players which is quite dazzling.
We can criticize performance, that’s fair and even necessary.
But we always take it too far and have extreme reactions saying this player is shite and so on.
I’ll take the example of Phil Jones, which for some reason has been turned into a meme early in his careers while he was actually a good player with lots of potential. Unfortunately he’s been plagued by injuries. The guy even refused his testimony.
I for one feel proud that the club stood by him.
Because ultimately that’s what it’s about, it’s about being part of a community and it feels nice to see that even in today’s game, our club can sometimes show some empathy towards their own, and that not everything is driven by money or results.
On the other hand, he is do protective about Jones. I had few comments about Jones which i avoided to post because.....well, @golden_blunder is the boss. And going against the boss is never a good option
.Sorry Golden. Don't ban me
My thought there is that people are incredibly harsh on a SICK NOT DUCK/injured man.On the other hand, he is do protective about Jones. I had few comments about Jones which i avoided to post because.....well, @golden_blunder is the boss. And going against the boss is never a good option
Sorry Golden. Don't ban me
On a side note I was watching the Ibra documentary on MUTV. Saw a fit healthy Jones doing through passes
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United fans are really special breed. Criticizing players/manager is confused with hate/moaning/not being true fan. Players are adults who do their job by playing football. It is perfectly fine to say what it is. If he played well, praise him. If he played badly, criticize him. Pretty simple.
Abuse is a different story of course.
Abuse is a different story of course.
"Calm yourself Andy. Calm your yourself. Don't reply. Don't reply."My thought there is that people are incredibly harsh on a duck/injured man.
On a side note I was watching the Ibra documentary on MUTV. Saw a fit healthy Jones doing through passes
Insults need to go. Criticisms are fine. Even passionate ones. It's part what makes the game the game. Watch cricket, baseball or women's football if you want "Ho-hum, that wasn't an ideal result that's for sure!" level of giving a feck
I think that major problem because of which tensions go high, is certain player's status among the fans and inability to separate that specific game from their overall performances and abilities. When Erik, Bruno or Lisandro have a bad game, if you criticize THAT performance, you are a hater. How dare you criticize manager/our best players?
On the other hand, it is open season on Martial, Fred, Dave, Lindelof....they can have a perfect game but they will still get a stick.
Constructive criticism is obviously the only universally acceptable discussion but I wonder at what point does banter cross the line and if so how fun would any discussion be without jabs here and there. This is entertainment after all and not political debate.
This place is nothing compared to mainstream social media, especially Twitter.
My engagement with footballers is also generally limited to the pitch and the club. I don't follow or care what they do outside of that, good or bad.
My engagement with footballers is also generally limited to the pitch and the club. I don't follow or care what they do outside of that, good or bad.
If players are struggling mentally they have my full sympathy and respect if they go and get help. More so if they are brave enough to talk about it and help others.
However, it's disingenuous to pretend that the insane money they earn isn't a factor. If being in the spotlight is one of the causes of their struggles, give up the spotlight. Give up the money. Sancho has earned about £35million from the club in 2 years for being average at his job and missing half a season, he doesn't need to play football any more to live a lifestyle most of us could never dream of.
If players like him continue to take the money and this pressure in turn fuels their off the field problems, that is on them.
However, it's disingenuous to pretend that the insane money they earn isn't a factor. If being in the spotlight is one of the causes of their struggles, give up the spotlight. Give up the money. Sancho has earned about £35million from the club in 2 years for being average at his job and missing half a season, he doesn't need to play football any more to live a lifestyle most of us could never dream of.
If players like him continue to take the money and this pressure in turn fuels their off the field problems, that is on them.