Keeping sub standard players like Fred because they're "good squad players" is exactly why we were in such a shithole state a year ago.
Fred | no longer Fred the Red but now a Turkish delight
- Thread starter Adnan
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I'm sure I'll survive. Unfortunate for you as you could have learned something.
Mate, you're not even replying to my question? Verratti's rumoured fee is the same as Amrabat, so why aren't top clubs in for him? What is the difference in circumstances? Please elaborate.
You have no idea why Fred didn't make the tour. We wanted to sell Henderson and he made the tour along with Elanga.
The club said personal reasons and we should stick by that.
The briefing has been very clear that Bailly was left behind because he's not part of the first team. They made sure not to do that with Fred.
You have literally no idea what's going on in a player's life. Someone he's close to might be sick and he didn't want to go on tour just in case or a myriad of other reasons. Would think Delle Alli and Lingard's stories would shine a light on that.
This is a really simplistic idea and not true. There are players out there that are good enough for United and available but that we aren't going to do deals for this summer. As there are for most clubs.
Alright mate.
Lets agree to disagree you clearly rated Fred, I dont. I'm happy we got rid of him. I think him ending in the turkish league when he's 30 and showing no signs of physically declining speaks a lot about his quality.
The first sentence we can agree on. I take it you’ll be moving on now.
RvP, Veratti, Neymar, Kante & now Amrabat. You keep attempting to subvert the discussion. It’s difficult to reply to a question when it changes at every post & doesn’t address the actual things I’ve said about Fred.
If you can’t see the differences in Verratti & Amrabat then feel free to open another thread. Happy to discuss Fred with you.
Night, said Fred
Good Fred thread, Bad Fred thread.
You're not really saying anything about Fred, though. You're implying he's not good enough to play for any team in one of the top leagues, and that the Turkish league is his level. There are so many other factors you're just choosing not to include here as to why PL clubs aren't bidding for him. If you think Oliver Norwood and Ben Osborn are better midfielders than Fred, then I don't really know what to say. Fred could easily be playing in the PL, but for whatever reasons that didn't happen, similarly to a lot of other players who went to lesser leagues when they're good enough to be in the PL.
Has anyone ever told you that you're an exceptionally strange person?So salty.
New tagline please mods.
Wow. What a great way to argue. RVP and Fred are much more comparable when they were leaving United than Kane at a similar age leaving Tottenham. You've missed the poster's point intentionally it looks like.
The stats mentioned were Fred's first 4 years here. He's played 5 so far.
I think it's mostly about relative value not current level. It's not the first time the big Turkish clubs have attracted a relatively notable player from major European leagues at the back end of a career. It's happened frequently and I think the reason is the player holds more value to them due to the weaker league, and so they can offer attractive packages.
Now, if you're say Bournemouth, let's consider what his relative value actually is. Fred is a good player, he has played for Brazil and Man United, it would be absolutely foolish to maintain he is not currently a PL level operator. Ridiculous actually. But he's not a great operator. He is also 30 and playing in the strongest league in the world, any drop off will be extremely costly and he will become a lead weight. Is that worth the contract value or are you better finding an investable proposition from elsewhere?
In my opinion it's kind of a logical career route for a guy that is not good enough for Man United, but has significant demands. Turkey, the US, maybe Saudi these days. It's totally normal, it doesn't mean they have nothing to offer. For a Fred that isn't a superstar player it's better doing that move at 30 too. At 34 the elite players can do still do it but Fred won't be appealing at that age, even to these leagues.
Now, if you're say Bournemouth, let's consider what his relative value actually is. Fred is a good player, he has played for Brazil and Man United, it would be absolutely foolish to maintain he is not currently a PL level operator. Ridiculous actually. But he's not a great operator. He is also 30 and playing in the strongest league in the world, any drop off will be extremely costly and he will become a lead weight. Is that worth the contract value or are you better finding an investable proposition from elsewhere?
In my opinion it's kind of a logical career route for a guy that is not good enough for Man United, but has significant demands. Turkey, the US, maybe Saudi these days. It's totally normal, it doesn't mean they have nothing to offer. For a Fred that isn't a superstar player it's better doing that move at 30 too. At 34 the elite players can do still do it but Fred won't be appealing at that age, even to these leagues.
We posted that a fee was agreed.
Agreed. If he was willing to go for a midtable slog and drop his wages enormously he would definitely be at another PL club now as witnessed by Fulham wanting him. But he probably wants to still feel like playing at a top club and so the move to Turkey to one of their big clubs while still playing at a decent standard of football appealed to him more.
The most balanced and well written post in the last few pages. There have been some shocking posts here where posters have exposed their lack of football knowledge. Particularly strange when it's about one of our own players.
I’m not implying anything. I’m stating the fact that him going to Turkey would signify no club in the ‘top leagues’ made him a transfer priority. That should tell us something.
You keep throwing out names & points that are not being made. If all things are equal of course Fred is demonstrably ‘better’ than the further 2 names you’ve thrown out but things aren’t equal.
And here he is going to Turkey.
Exactly.
You’ve started this near day long tirade against something I never said. Now it’s either wilful ignorance or misunderstanding but let’s clear this up.
If about 75% of the league were offered Fred for a fraction of his wage they’d take him because for that he would prove good value, he’s a former United player & Brazil international but that isn’t the option, Fred’s demands are quite obviously higher than those that these teams find acceptable for what he would return.
You’re misunderstanding correlation & causation. Going to Turkey doesn’t make a player ‘bad’. A player being available all Summer for a reasonable fee ending up in Turkey instead of one of 10s of clubs across the continent does however point to said player not being particularly highly sought after.
If he were half as good as a number of you protest the point would be moot cause EtH would have kept him.
@Abraxas puts it’s perfectly in his post. I never called Fred useless or ‘shit’.
No, you’re attempting to miss mine intentionally without digging back to my initial post. Feel free to go back to the post in which he takes umbridge & find me calling him any of the multitude of things he accuses me of. Apparently I think Fred is ‘shit’, I do not. Which in turn means I think RvP must be ‘shit’, which I don’t & so on. . .
If the basis of defence for Fred is RvP went to Turkey then fine, does nothing for the fact that no club in a ‘big league’ finds him worth it at whatever his cost is.
Yes.
That's funny, considering you haven't watched these players play, so you're just exposing your dislike for Fred, regardless of how bad the other players are
Going by this thread logic, it's clear that none of the players who moved to Saudi or MLS are good enough to play in top 20 leagues, which probably includes Scottish and Belgian league.
The scout who recommeded Fred to Utd and thought he had potential to be WC, i would hope is no longer with us. He never had that potential.
Anyway best of luck to him.
Anyway best of luck to him.
He was 24 and a decent signing at the time. It's just the transfer fee itself that was way too much. Pep was also after Fred, and I'd say he has a pretty good eye for talent.
It certainly didn't help Fred that we played him out of position for 4 years, and that his partner was McTominay who didn't offer a passing option as much as a midfielder should.
Thought he played much better last season with Casemiro. But then I can’t stand his relentless chewing, especially in game. So, good luck Fred, and good riddance.
If you don't rate Fred and please do not rate Caicedo too much..Yes, stat may not tell everything in field but it will tell a lot of true which will not be emotional and magnify mistakes..
Except Aerials, they have similar stats at those aspect..
| Premier League | Caicedo | Fred | |||
| 22/23 | 18/19 | 19/20 | 19/20 | 20/21 | 22/23 |
| Minutes Played | 3139 | 1041 | 2163 | 2390 | 1249 |
| Passing | |||||
| Passes Attempted | 65.41 | 68.39 | 72.48 | 68.84 | 56.28 |
| Pass Completion % | 88.60% | 85.10% | 85.10% | 87.00% | 79.10% |
| Total Passing Distance | 878.07 | 1043.43 | 1117.03 | 1051.27 | 676.77 |
| Progressive Passing Distance | 231.95 | 271.56 | 306.57 | 296.85 | 199.38 |
| Assists | 0.03 | 0.09 | 0 | 0 | 0.14 |
| xAG | 0.07 | 0.09 | 0.09 | 0.07 | 0.21 |
| Expected Assists | 0.07 | 0.06 | 0.09 | 0.08 | 0.13 |
| Key Passes | 1.18 | 1.04 | 1.46 | 0.94 | 2.16 |
| Passes into Final Third | 5.34 | 6.57 | 5.91 | 7.12 | 4.68 |
| Passes into Penalty Area | 1 | 0.35 | 0.58 | 0.75 | 0.79 |
| Progressive Passes | 6.41 | 6.31 | 6.57 | 7.12 | 5.48 |
| Through Balls | 0.32 | 0.26 | 0.12 | 0.19 | 0.5 |
| Defense | |||||
| Tackles | 2.83 | 2.51 | 2.5 | 3.05 | 3.39 |
| Tackles Won | 1.42 | 1.47 | 1.33 | 1.47 | 2.16 |
| Tackles (Def 3rd) | 1.15 | 1.04 | 1.37 | 1.47 | 1.73 |
| Tackles (Mid 3rd) | 1.33 | 1.38 | 0.92 | 1.43 | 1.44 |
| Tackles (Att 3rd) | 0.35 | 0.09 | 0.21 | 0.15 | 0.22 |
| Dribblers Tackled | 1.12 | 1.3 | 1.04 | 1.09 | 1.08 |
| Dribbles Challenged | 1.95 | 2.85 | 4.16 | 3.35 | 2.74 |
| % of dribblers tackled | 57.60% | 45.50% | 25.00% | 32.60% | 39.50% |
| Challenges Lost | 0.83 | 1.56 | 3.12 | 2.26 | 1.66 |
| Blocks | 1.27 | 2.25 | 1.83 | 1.85 | 2.74 |
| Shots Blocked | 0.21 | 0.17 | 0.33 | 0.34 | 0.14 |
| Passes Blocked | 1.06 | 2.07 | 1.5 | 1.51 | 2.59 |
| Interceptions | 1.56 | 1.38 | 1.58 | 1.69 | 1.37 |
| Tkl+Int | 4.4 | 3.89 | 4.08 | 4.74 | 4.76 |
| Clearances | 0.8 | 1.21 | 1.33 | 0.98 | 1.37 |
| Errors | 0.09 | 0.17 | 0 | 0.04 | 0 |
| Possession | |||||
| Touches | 75.45 | 81.01 | 85.67 | 79.95 | 71.99 |
| Touches (Def Pen) | 2.57 | 1.9 | 2.54 | 2.52 | 2.74 |
| Touches (Def 3rd) | 15.82 | 15.22 | 18.02 | 18.87 | 18.01 |
| Touches (Mid 3rd) | 44.42 | 53.78 | 48.68 | 47.3 | 34.8 |
| Touches (Att 3rd) | 16.09 | 12.8 | 19.89 | 14.72 | 20.1 |
| Touches (Att Pen) | 0.77 | 0.86 | 0.83 | 0.56 | 2.67 |
| Touches (Live-Ball) | 75.45 | 81.01 | 85.67 | 79.95 | 71.99 |
| Take-Ons Attempted | 1.59 | 1.38 | 2.21 | 1.13 | 2.31 |
| Successful Take-Ons | 0.83 | 0.86 | 1.66 | 0.9 | 0.86 |
| Successful Take-On % | 51.90% | 62.50% | 75.50% | 80.00% | 37.50% |
| Times Tackled During Take-On | 0.62 | 0.52 | 0.54 | 0.23 | 1.08 |
| Tackled During Take-On Percentage | 38.90% | 37.50% | 24.50% | 20.00% | 46.90% |
| Carries | 44.04 | 48.24 | 48.02 | 46.17 | 38.7 |
| Total Carrying Distance | 181.33 | 236.28 | 237.5 | 217.88 | 155.5 |
| Progressive Carrying Distance | 83.62 | 120.95 | 120.79 | 102.09 | 74.51 |
| Progressive Carries | 1.06 | 1.56 | 1.17 | 1.17 | 0.72 |
| Carries into Final Third | 0.94 | 1.73 | 1.75 | 1.24 | 1.23 |
| Carries into Penalty Area | 0.15 | 0.43 | 0.46 | 0.04 | 0.22 |
| Miscontrols | 1.12 | 1.82 | 1.87 | 1.09 | 1.87 |
| Dispossessed | 0.68 | 1.56 | 1.08 | 1.13 | 1.15 |
| Passes Received | 55.14 | 56.89 | 58.04 | 56.33 | 44.24 |
| Progressive Passes Rec | 1.77 | 1.82 | 1.62 | 1.24 | 3.6 |
| Miscellaneous Stats | |||||
| Fouls Committed | 1.86 | 2.16 | 1.75 | 1.69 | 2.38 |
| Fouls Drawn | 1.53 | 1.56 | 1.5 | 1.13 | 1.59 |
| Interceptions | 1.56 | 1.38 | 1.58 | 1.69 | 1.37 |
| Tackles Won | 1.42 | 1.47 | 1.33 | 1.47 | 2.16 |
| Ball Recoveries | 7.05 | 9.08 | 9.74 | 8.59 | 9.15 |
| Aerials won | 1.03 | 0.26 | 0.37 | 0.34 | 0.79 |
| Aerials lost | 0.56 | 1.12 | 0.79 | 0.53 | 0.79 |
| % of Aerials Won | 64.80% | 18.80% | 32.10% | 39.10% | 50.00% |
Reference from
https://fbref.com/en/players/16264a81/scout/11566/Moises-Caicedo-Scouting-Report
https://fbref.com/en/players/b853e0ad/scout/11566/Fred-Scouting-Report
My god. It's like smashing your face into a brick wall. I watch all of brighton's games because i'm heavily into FF and had 3 Brighton players in rotation so made sure to watch 90% of their games last year to win my works FF as there was a big cash prize. Not that I should need to explain myself because it makes no difference either way.
I don't know how to put this in terms you can understand, let me put it as simply as possible.
Fred - was part of one of the worst ever United midfields i've ever seen. Put in a few good performances over the years but is a very limited midfielder. This shouldnt even be an argument. Can barely give him away, farmers league team offers 15million for him. Not a single premier league team wants him, even at a discount and on feck all wages.
Caidedo - wanted by two of the best teams in the premier league, both willing to play 115million for him because of his unique skill set and ability in his position. Absolute fantastic player who shouldn't even be compared to Fred. Would walk into every team in the league.
But you seriously think they're in the same league because "herp derp stats". I'm sure you're one of the guys that thought tom cleverley was freaking amazing because he had 99% pass accuracy most games, despite all of his passes going in reverse.
How angry are you? Jesus Christ
"Herp derp stats". Stats are literal facts. Are you going to deny facts or something? Two of the best teams in Premier League who finished 5th and 12th. Yes, @iHicksy, that makes perfect sense.
Good luck to him. Always gave his best. Full of energy. Had he played for Brighton or WestHam his valuation would be £300m.
Thank you for this. A lot of posters that need to take a look at this. Some are in denial, and think stats are a lie.
No, I just gave you that answer because you picked examples from clubs that would have no interest in him. Mainly because he's quite clearly out of their value range and then he's just not good enough to bother trying to stretch yourself financially for. He wouldn't add anything special to a promoted team looking to stay up.That's funny, considering you haven't watched these players play, so you're just exposing your dislike for Fred, regardless of how bad the other players are
Is he better than what these clubs outside the top 5 or 6 have, Everton, Spurs, Brighton, Villa, Fulham, Brentford, Palace, West Ham, Bournemouth, Forrest?
Nope, that's why none of them pursued him. Because he added nothing, even for 15m, a bargain for an experienced PL midfielder. Not one of them was interested.
So is he good enough for a PL team or not? We're not talking about whether he's out of their value range or if he's not worth paying money for when he'll only be a small improvement.
Why don't you take a look at post #867 and see what he offers instead of making shit up?
I've always been a big fan of Fred, and these stats do show his positives. There a few main differences that show Caicedo's qualities.
Dribbles Challenged and Challenges Lost. Fred continuously harasses opponents in positions that aren't always good. He sometimes overly commits to challenges and gets dribbled. I'm sure there used to be a Dribbled Passed stat on fbref, but they seem to have removed it over the last year or so. Fred's numbers were quite high. I guess Challenges Lost is the same thing?
Miscontrols and Dispossessed also show a difference. Caicedo is much better at receiving the ball with his back to goal, more physical, and press resistant than Fred. Physicality and press resistance is huge for a midfielder, and a big reason why Caicedo is really good.
If Fred were more consistent, I think ETH would have kept him. He has a lot of qualities, but his inconsistency is a problem.
He's not.So is he good enough for a PL team or not? We're not talking about whether he's out of their value range or if he's not worth paying money for when he'll only be a small improvement.
Why don't you take a look at post #867 and see what he offers instead of making shit up?
He offers nothing to any PL club that they can see as being worthwhile, so he's away to Turkey.
Good riddance, sorry not sorry.
Those who honestly wanted to keep him around are off their rocker. He was an absolute liability in way too many games for him ever to make a positive difference over time here. Every top or decent club in Europe could see it, hence why he's going to a farmers league. Glad EtH dealt with it reasonably quickly.
Those who honestly wanted to keep him around are off their rocker. He was an absolute liability in way too many games for him ever to make a positive difference over time here. Every top or decent club in Europe could see it, hence why he's going to a farmers league. Glad EtH dealt with it reasonably quickly.
Re Brighton, I don't believe you for a second but if you know you're telling the truth then you shouldn't get so upset about my opinion.
The thing about why he's gone to Turkey has been done to death. There are lots of good players in different leagues for lots of reasons.
Your last paragraph is the real prize. Firstly re Tom Cleverly and sidewards passes. You do understand that is accounted for in stats? It's called progressive passes (among others) I provided those earlier and Fred's number is higher than Caicedo's. I'm not sure what "herp derp stats" are, stats are just an accounting of what's happened on a football pitch.
I'm sorry that the use of stats seem to frustrate you so much but looking at reliable and comprehensive data is quite a good way of understanding things in any walk of life. The fact you think looking at stats would make Cleverly and Lukaku look like brilliant players indicates that you may not know what to look out for when reading them.
Best of luck to Fred, complete effort and commitment but fairly unique when it came to talent in that there was never a middle ground. He was either top class or bloody hopeless.
Exactly this. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, Fred would be a much better midfielder if he was as strong as Caicedo.
There are too many posters going on about Fred's passing as if it's some amateur on the field. The stats clearly show that he is slightly behind Caicedo in terms of pass completion rate, but then he also passes more and more progressive passes. You'll have posters coming at this with "bUt sTaTs doNt tEll thE whOle stOrY". What does that even mean? Does it mean that he doesn't really progress the ball more often, despite the stats proving it, or does it mean he doesn't pass the ball per 90 more than Caicedo, when the same stats also prove this?
I can almost guarantee that Caicedo's stats would suffer if he was partnered with Scott McTominay.
As you already pointed out, what seperates Caicedo and Fred isn't their passing, but the consistency and Caicedo's press resistance, strength and the fact he's better at controlling the ball. These are all traits that are absolutely vital for a midfielder, and unfortunately for us, Fred was quite weak despite being tenacious, and also not very press resistant.
Where Fred comes out on top is his offensive contributions. Some of his assists and passes are genuinely world class, and I've yet to see Caicedo make passes like Fred has, but that is only natural considering he has only been here for one season while Fred has been in the PL for five seasons. There is also no guarantee that Caicedo will live up to his potential, and leaving Brighton for Chelsea might also be bad for his development and slow down his trajectory. Time will tell if he will be Kanté level or just another good midfielder.
You're wrong, and several posters have already explained to you why that is the case.
PS: Why did no PL club try to sign Robin van Persie when he left us? Only Fenerbahce was interested. That means he's shit, right?
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