And all of our attacking players.
Why is our passing so garbage?
- Thread starter klayton88
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Shit technically and low IQ players is a recipe for disaster
Think its genuinely a club issue. I remember, on a overlap episode, that Scholes and Neville regarded United as a non possession type team and that particular style wasn't the style they were brought up on, compared to a club like Arsenal/Barca. Think it still present.
Technically inept FC has been going for years now. The club gets dominated by almost every team in the league
Complete lack of technical quality
But they themselves could pass though, we were never a team that like to hog possession for possession’s sake, but we still regularly had about 57-58% avg. possession over the season, and we were better at sustained pressure. Teams used to go to OT and couldn’t break out of their own half for 15, 20 minutes, now us being outplayed in midfield is a regular occurrence.
The current problem stems from our recruitment, we’ve for too long gone for players who are at their best in transition, starting with Mourinho. Under LvG even though the recruitment was wank and the football tootless largely, a midfield of Carrick, Fellaini, Schneiderlin, past it Schweinsteiger could still knock it about all day and find their target.
That is not true.
We're mostly a transition team in late of SAF reign. LVG tried to changed that, but it's only on the surface and too little to be effective, where the core of the team were still Smalling, Valencia, DDG, Fellaini, Rooney, Raahford breaking through.
For example:
Mourinho first season 56.7% in PL that's closely identical to 56.6% of 2009-2010 season. 2009-2010 has the best possession stats under SAF, from all the seasons where Whoscored started to collect performance data.
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...amStatistics/England-Premier-League-2016-2017
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...amStatistics/England-Premier-League-2009-2010
In 2009-2010, we had the best possession stats in the league, too! The issue is football has changed. In SAF last season, we averaged 54.9% and already ranked lower than a few teams. Nowadays, the best teams average 58+% per season, with Pep City stood out with consistent 60+%. Last year, 3 teams got 60+%. So it's more about us slipping then standing still when finding our feet, than it started to go down hill under Mourinho.
Ole 2 full United way seasons couldn't reach 55%. Can't find how to get the number in the 2 partial seasons under Ole.
The revisionism on LVG tenure is wild. We could pass the ball between the defenders, DDG to our central midfielders, but under pressure it's all back ward, and wayward. That is no good passing. Just as Smalling is a very safe , high volume passer of the ball, he's not a good ball playing CB. While LVG first season possession stats was pretty expected of a possession based team with 58.8%, surprisingly his second season was not that great with 55.8%
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Our passing is crap because our central midfield players are rubbish at it.
There I’ve said it.
Our forward players can’t hang on to the ball because the midfield give them cowardly balls and expect them to be magicians with it. I feel bad for Casemiro and his creative/playmaking responsibilities at United, this does not show him in a good light. The fact he has these responsibilities tell us how inept those in front of him are and them lacking the right abilities for the roles they are entrusted.
We can’t be a great passing team in a quick transition and direct duel heavy cm setup. To be good at passing the primary focus in the centre of the pitch should be ball retention and not fast breaks.
There I’ve said it.
Our forward players can’t hang on to the ball because the midfield give them cowardly balls and expect them to be magicians with it. I feel bad for Casemiro and his creative/playmaking responsibilities at United, this does not show him in a good light. The fact he has these responsibilities tell us how inept those in front of him are and them lacking the right abilities for the roles they are entrusted.
We can’t be a great passing team in a quick transition and direct duel heavy cm setup. To be good at passing the primary focus in the centre of the pitch should be ball retention and not fast breaks.
Utterly diabolical much like the away form
The football we play is utter shit. Transitional counterattacking garbage and Hail Mary-s... Why can't this club move away from this?
Passing is made by players. If the passing is shit, who else is shit?
The time you're referring to also had a significantly worse competition technically in the PL. Mid table PL teams have never been better technically and tactically than they are today, hence, being good at passing the ball is no longer enough to pin teams back like it used to back in the '90s.
The worst part for me is we're not even particularly good at it.
The transitions and counters were there for us last night, a competent side would have scored at least a couple of goals. Nearly all our transitions break down through a poor touch, poor control, poor pass or poor decision.
This is the thing about ball retention, it doesn't require you to be a possession at all costs side. If you want to transition quickly when you win the ball back, great, but at least be good at it. In a fast counter attack you still need to retain possession of the ball, or the counter has broken down.
The ones that don't break down, we mess up the end product with a shit finish.
I think people are simplifying things massively to blame the midfield.
Outside the midfield there's 8 other players on the pitch, if those 8 players can't control or pass a football and constantly make poor decisions, then there's as much as the problem as the midfielders.
Outside the midfield there's 8 other players on the pitch, if those 8 players can't control or pass a football and constantly make poor decisions, then there's as much as the problem as the midfielders.
I don't just think that it is our passing that is the problem. I think if you look at Brighton last night, they have a goalie who is comfortable with the ball at his feet, they have 2 centrebacks who are hard as nails but also decent at passing. They have fullbacks who were bombing forward the entire match. They had a midfield and forward line that are brilliant at pressing. It meant that at no stage did we have easy passes to make, so every pass then becomes by definition more difficult.
I believe the problem is to do both with our passing (staring with DDG) but also in how we press as a team. I actually thought that we improved a bit when Sabitzer came on but then it went downhill again.
If we compare how much space Rashford had v Mitomo it was unbelievable. AWB did okay under the circumstances but if Rashford had been afforded that much freedom then he would have torn Caicedo a new one. After the the start of the match Brighton made sure that they always had 2 people on him.
I believe the problem is to do both with our passing (staring with DDG) but also in how we press as a team. I actually thought that we improved a bit when Sabitzer came on but then it went downhill again.
If we compare how much space Rashford had v Mitomo it was unbelievable. AWB did okay under the circumstances but if Rashford had been afforded that much freedom then he would have torn Caicedo a new one. After the the start of the match Brighton made sure that they always had 2 people on him.
Ten Hag really needs to drastically change this in the summer. It suits our players - but that’s because they all lack the ability to control matches.
We should be working the other way round - the players fitting the style of football we want to play, and if they can’t, bin them.
Too many players lack technical quality, intelligence and composure, which lead to so many mistakes and poor decisions.
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I don’t think it as bad as people in here are making out and I also put it down to generally having a few weak links in the team in relation to passing makes the whole team look like it can’t pass!
Personelle like DDG, AWB, Dalot, Fred ultimately need to stop being fixtures in the first team to see the type of improvement everyone seems to want.
I was astonished at how good the keeper for Brighton was on the ball last night, same for Lewis fecking Dunk!
Personelle like DDG, AWB, Dalot, Fred ultimately need to stop being fixtures in the first team to see the type of improvement everyone seems to want.
I was astonished at how good the keeper for Brighton was on the ball last night, same for Lewis fecking Dunk!
Ten Hag has done a brilliant job raising the general technical level of the squad. We've come far but it will always be difficult to consistently outdo teams that are actually built to play this way. What we have right now is merely a poor imitation of what we would be with matching talents playing these roles.
Because there's no one to lead that charge. There's just a section of the fan base that wants it, that's it
Are we saying Newcastle, Spurs, Liverpool, villa, Brentford all have better technical midfielders than us?
Because in all those games we got dominated in the midfield
I would understand been dominated by city, Arsenal or even Brighton but not the lot at the top.
At times the passing is just garbage due to silly errors
But our team structure is also bad that Bruno, Casemiro and Eriksen have to ping the ball wide to our wingers because we can't pop it through the middle for a striker to hold on and get others in the game.
We also seem to want to play 700 miles an hour and that leads to poor passing
Don't even talk to me about the stupid flicks we do in the worse moments
During our two games against Brighton, everytime they got the ball through the middle our midfield was scattered
That leads me to our defensive organisation away from home, for example the second goal we conceded against spurs
We were 2:1 up away from home so how does a simple ricochet take both full backs out of the game?
All of these ties into why we can't pass, Eriksen, Casemiro are technically better midfielders, Antony has a good technic on the ball. Bruno should too but he's always looking for the hail Mary ball
Because in all those games we got dominated in the midfield
I would understand been dominated by city, Arsenal or even Brighton but not the lot at the top.
At times the passing is just garbage due to silly errors
But our team structure is also bad that Bruno, Casemiro and Eriksen have to ping the ball wide to our wingers because we can't pop it through the middle for a striker to hold on and get others in the game.
We also seem to want to play 700 miles an hour and that leads to poor passing
Don't even talk to me about the stupid flicks we do in the worse moments
During our two games against Brighton, everytime they got the ball through the middle our midfield was scattered
That leads me to our defensive organisation away from home, for example the second goal we conceded against spurs
We were 2:1 up away from home so how does a simple ricochet take both full backs out of the game?
All of these ties into why we can't pass, Eriksen, Casemiro are technically better midfielders, Antony has a good technic on the ball. Bruno should too but he's always looking for the hail Mary ball
Get 2 competent cm with excellent passing stats will completely change the way we play. At the moment its long hit and hope balls for Rash to chase mainly. When we have had a good spell usually at home, we look decent on the ball. Trouble is we cant keep it up with the likes of McFred and Bruno, who is better but still 50/50 with the passing. Eriksen and Casemiro are the best passers we have, but a big drop off if they dont play. Martinez and Verane are decent from the back
Varane??
Great defender but is not much better than Smalling was when it comes to passing.
The two best defenders we have at passing are Luke and Lisandro by a distance.
Yeah need one who is capable of playing more of a CDM role but can pass. Then the other needs to be more of a tempo controlling progressive CM
Every 3 or 4 days our team like to remind us that they are technically inept.
I think it's hard to say that the players are technically not capable. Weghorst aside those are good footballers out there from the midfield and attack. Yes Malacia/AWB are limited but they weren't causing all the issues today or more widely in recent games. We're not talking about playing the very best teams, we can basically struggle against anyone.
Tactically I think ETH has/is making odd decisions e.g. Weghorst and how we use the fullbacks in attack but a lot of these issues pre date him and you have to wonder if some of the players in attack really have the right mentality and a willingness to play to a strategy. Sancho/Martial are too passive/mentally fragile, Anthony to singularly focussed in how he attacks and then Bruno/Rashford are basically mavericks, doing their own thing which as our star players is particularly challenging. Together they just don't play as a unit and in particularly no one creates space for anyone and they're all willing to give the ball away cheaply trying something overly risky. In effect I think we've essentially built a squad of luxury players, all capable of brilliance but none being the reliable players who will make the right decisions more often than not.
Tactically I think ETH has/is making odd decisions e.g. Weghorst and how we use the fullbacks in attack but a lot of these issues pre date him and you have to wonder if some of the players in attack really have the right mentality and a willingness to play to a strategy. Sancho/Martial are too passive/mentally fragile, Anthony to singularly focussed in how he attacks and then Bruno/Rashford are basically mavericks, doing their own thing which as our star players is particularly challenging. Together they just don't play as a unit and in particularly no one creates space for anyone and they're all willing to give the ball away cheaply trying something overly risky. In effect I think we've essentially built a squad of luxury players, all capable of brilliance but none being the reliable players who will make the right decisions more often than not.
Man Utd 1:0 Wolves
It's early days but this will be a real worry if we don't massively improve from last season. 51% possession at home against a side that will be bottom half of the table this season.
We make so many sloppy errors in possession it's baffling. Poor touches, poor passes and poor decisions all over the pitch.
Fans complaining about how often we got hit in transition tonight need to rewind the clock 5 seconds and see how we gave the ball away in the first place, we cheaply gift the ball to the opposition to set them on a counter attack every 30 seconds. Instead of only focusing on how well we stop the opposition we should always consider how often we need to stop the opposition. Every loss of possession for us is a potential attack created for the opposition, if you cut out the needless loss of possession by 50% then you stop 50% of the opposition's attacks before they even exist.
The lack of goals and chances created always come back to how many attacking moves break down due to a inexplicably poor touch, pass or decision.
We make so many sloppy errors in possession it's baffling. Poor touches, poor passes and poor decisions all over the pitch.
Fans complaining about how often we got hit in transition tonight need to rewind the clock 5 seconds and see how we gave the ball away in the first place, we cheaply gift the ball to the opposition to set them on a counter attack every 30 seconds. Instead of only focusing on how well we stop the opposition we should always consider how often we need to stop the opposition. Every loss of possession for us is a potential attack created for the opposition, if you cut out the needless loss of possession by 50% then you stop 50% of the opposition's attacks before they even exist.
The lack of goals and chances created always come back to how many attacking moves break down due to a inexplicably poor touch, pass or decision.
We are seriously terrible in possession. Bruno bring one the biggest culprits, his percentage rate of giving the ball away must be huge.
I’ve no idea what we do in training but it’s not good enough to constantly give the ball back to the opposition when there is next to no pressure on you. For as long as I can remember now, going back to the last couple of seasons under Ferguson we have simply gone on the field and winged it.
I’ve no idea what we do in training but it’s not good enough to constantly give the ball back to the opposition when there is next to no pressure on you. For as long as I can remember now, going back to the last couple of seasons under Ferguson we have simply gone on the field and winged it.
Of the starting XI, I would say Onana, Martinez, Shaw and Antony are the only players naturally equipped to keeping the ball.
I think it's the decision making as much as anything else. Trying the complicated pass when easier but equally effective passes are on.
We seem to want to do everything in one pass, rather than manipulate defenders and create overloads...so when we're playing badly, it tends to lead to these basketball-style football matches.
We seem to want to do everything in one pass, rather than manipulate defenders and create overloads...so when we're playing badly, it tends to lead to these basketball-style football matches.
It's genuinely shocking how sloppy we are at times. Just pissing away possession unnecessarily time and time again. Utterly brainless.
We just lack the players for it and no tactical set up is going to change that unless we actually start bringing players that are world class on the ball and know how make the opposing team play on their terms.
Look at the best possession teams in Europe, look at City, look at Barcelona etc etc and none of them will be half as good if they didn't have the players that they've got.
Eric seemed to have the right idea last summer by prioritizing perhaps the very best possession midfielder in the world but I genuinely have no idea what prompted him to change course so rapidly this season by pursuing mount who in my opinion his lack of world class ball playing and passing will not be compensated by his running and defensive work, I suppose we could make an exception for Bruno being so careless simply due to his sheer deadlines as an offensive threat and casemiro is pretty well suited to play possession based football given the right circumstances as we'd seen with real.
We still need a world class midfielder and we need it fast lest we waste bruno's and casemiro's peak and ending up having to buy 3 instead of one.
Look at the best possession teams in Europe, look at City, look at Barcelona etc etc and none of them will be half as good if they didn't have the players that they've got.
Eric seemed to have the right idea last summer by prioritizing perhaps the very best possession midfielder in the world but I genuinely have no idea what prompted him to change course so rapidly this season by pursuing mount who in my opinion his lack of world class ball playing and passing will not be compensated by his running and defensive work, I suppose we could make an exception for Bruno being so careless simply due to his sheer deadlines as an offensive threat and casemiro is pretty well suited to play possession based football given the right circumstances as we'd seen with real.
We still need a world class midfielder and we need it fast lest we waste bruno's and casemiro's peak and ending up having to buy 3 instead of one.
Antony cant pass either.
I think Wolves' passing was quite off today as well (a terrible advert for the Prem) but where Wolves were good and we looked shite was anticipating a loose ball or going into 50/50s, even coming towards the ball instead of just standing still and allowing opposition players to intercept the pass. There was no light on, it seemed, bar for one Bruno occasion and one Mount occasion, I think we generally looked 2nd best.
I still find it absolutely bizarre how he pivoted from De Jong to Casimero last summer. They really couldn’t be more polar opposites in midfield. And he has now compounded the issue by buying Mount. Add to that we already had Bruno who’s always loved to piss away possession and it feels like ETH just completely ripped up his initial plans and went in the completely opposite direction. Just cannot get my head around it at all.
Well to be fair we needed both a ball playing regista type player and a DM so not a case of the one or the other and cafe had been basically clamoring for it for so many years and in my opinion it was the right move, arrival of casemiro saved our season from total dissaster.
Can't justify the mount signing however, perhaps he deems our current set up's ability on the ball good enough.
We refuse to sign the proper technical players.
I don't think Ten Hag is bothered about possession. The aim is to get the ball forward quickly and get Rashford, Garnacho, Anthony running at the opposition. We had low average possession figures last season and that will continue this seaon (or possibly become even more pronounced if Mount replaces Eriksen in the starting XI).
Our passing needs to be much more precise than it was today if we're to be successful on the break, but Guardiola's football is clearly not the end goal here.
Our passing needs to be much more precise than it was today if we're to be successful on the break, but Guardiola's football is clearly not the end goal here.
We signed Mount but in reality the first choice was a deep lying playmaker like De Jong who was out of our price range or didn’t want to come. Or both
Those players are so rare and we don’t have anyone in the mould. Bruno is basically doing his best deeper but he’s not the same level.
I hope Mainoo can make a difference, I thought he looks great in central midfield. Hope he will be back soon to improve this shit show. ETH needs to do something in training to tweak the midfield before Spurs game else it will be another shit show. I still remember we got spank badly after Bruno score the first goal.