Why is our passing so garbage?

[Oranges038]

LVG did WHAT? What is "that"? Why is always LVG brought up when people talk about possession based football? Again and I try to be as precise as possible: Nobody wants United to become a possession based team. What we want (and what is needed to become a top team over a sustainable period of time) is that our teams gets more comfortable on the ball, able to assert more control on games by controlling the ball IN SITUATIONS OF NEED. Its not like LVGs football is the star all possession fans are striving for, his football wasn't functional as it didn't create chances whatsoever. Nobody wants that back, everybody can stop arguing against that.

Pep uses set patterns over and over and over. And they seem to work, why shouldn't we look at competitors (or teams we are aspiring to compete with) for things to copy?

Half a billion in fullbacks - Mate, I see your point, but those things aren't really recent anymore aren't they? So not sure, if it is really relevant to the discussion. I am not trying to depict Pep and City as the best thing possible, but they undoubtedly do a lot of things correctly and we would be fools thinking that we can just look into our past for recipes for past success and continue that proud tradition easily by recycling it.
Yes City is paying lots of money for players. But so are we, so is Chelsea. But City has a far bigger output I'd say so reducing all that on "money spent" is probably pretty short-sighted.



You are right, a certain amount of intelligence is needed and it is difficult to train that level. But I don't think, there are many players out there who really are too thick to understand what a manager might want from them. Your first sentence sounds like in top teams are only filled with top players who are also highly intelligent, permanently assessing every new situation and coming up with solutions on the fly. I am pretty sure, that isn't the case (at least not 100%). It is fascinating that this discussion comes up again after all the talk we had about it during Ole reign. A system or a set of instructions of a manager aren't supposed to REPLACE decision making by the players on pitch. It is supposed to support it by narrowing down the number of variables. And while there are players like Fred and Bruno, who thrive when they can act instinctively, I am pretty sure other players would thrive when given a functional structure, I'd say McTominay and Shaw are candidates for that.

ETH will create such a structure but he isn't there yet. That is fine. But some seem to state, that his part of the job isn't as relevant as long as he gets player who are "good enough" or "intelligent" and I think, a) to assemble a whole team of that is expensive and takes time and b) it might be worth the time trying to maximize output differently during the wait.


Elanga doesn't get many minutes, is a squad option that rarely plays. Same for Sabitzer. So while your explanation is plausible, I could make a case for my argument being the main reason as well.
There will always be misplaced passes. They happen at Bayern and at City just as well. Nothing will prevent that and I'd support measures, to make sure players are fully focussed to reduce shoddy execution of stuff. But that alone isn't the reason for "our passing is garbage". The reason is, we still aren't great at adapting to opponent shape, getting rid of markers, become available to pass to, increase tempo of passing to make it more difficult to defend against.


You might be right, but knowing that there is no way to proof that, I don't see the point of that argument being used to try to improve circumstances to maximize player output. I invite you to check my post history, I am certainly not advocating giving all players endless chances. And yes, players like AWB or Maguire shouldn't have been bought in the first place because of their deficiencies, but it is what it is - I for one don't want to spin the transfer circle over and over again until we maybe hit a combination that "improves team passing" out of nowhere. I'd try to be more proactive.

LVG's stucture was very rigid, very slow and very predictable. Players stayed in their zones and moved where they were told. It was incredibly boring football by numbers.

I don't want to watch predictable phases of passing every week. You don't have to be a solely possession based team, keeping the ball for the sake of it when you are ahead is fine by me, control the game and don't the other team
back in, last night was good example of what not to do.

What do I want to see good high tempo attacking football. With good passing and movement, most of the first half last night and the first half against Everton, recognising the opportunities and exploiting the opposition. Not just playing the same way every week regardless of the score or who you are playing.

For me too many of the players in this Utd squad just don't have the required tools to play high tempo 1-2 touch quick passing football. That's the problem, it's just too slow most of the time, they are too slow to recognise the spaces and opportunities, to make the moves, to control and move the ball. They just react to the situations they are too slow to recognise rather than create them to their benefit.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I honestly don't really care if we aren't the highest % passers in the league, or even close to it, so long as we're playing attractive, attacking football (and preferably getting results). When I first started following football, I was told to watch Liverpool. I did, and they passed it so much and I kept falling asleep each game. Then I watched them playing Manchester United and finally there was a team that hooked me. And it was because of the playing style, being adventurous. Do I groan at some sloppy passes? Absolutely. But do I groan when a quick one-two goes amiss or a player loses the ball trying something creative? Nope. What I really, really hate? Passing backwards, passing sideways, while everyone is flat footed. Fluffing around. Boring stuff. Passing % generation.

What are you complaining about. What has said they want us to play sideways passes and backward passes

 

[AndySmith1990]

I believe we have some of the lowest IQ footballers in the country. The decision making is shocking and there's a distinct lack of composure. Even our so called star player (Rashford) is ludicrously stupid half the time and makes the wrong decision. As for numpties like Sancho and Antony don't get me started.

 

[NZT-One]

I'd love it.

I wouldnt mind playing like Barca 2000s and City now. Winning trophies

I meant "nobody wants possession for possessions sake" football ala LVG. All a few of us are asking for is being comfortable on the ball when it suits a game. Like yesterdays 2nd half. I am more than fine with sticking to transitional football as long as it is getting us results.

Our passing and control of games looked far better in the first half of the season. I remember even the Leicester match early in the season and for the first 60 minutes we looked so dominant in our control of the game and there were plenty of games like that. Been steadily getting worse for a while though.

To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't agree to that. We looked a little more capable of doing something with the ball but we still more or less always went for quick attacks. Which, again, is absolutely nothing to complain about, but sometimes, it would have been benefitial to take control and see games out instead of running into open knives or allowing a chaotic game to emerge which hurt us with late goals. Early ETH days, sure, so nothing to beat the manager with, but it seems like he doesn't have a working idea of how to adjust us midgame into a more defensive and controlling team. He is doing fine with making us more attacking though.

Yes your right, what I meant was Liverpool aren't known for being a slow build up passing possession based team. They're more direct compared to City for example.

Absolutely. Liverpool is a good example to show, how to evolve. They developed from rock'n'roll transitional football into a more possession based side simply out of necessity because opponents didn't allow them space to attack into i.e. deeper blocks. Same thing has hit us under Ole at some point and I'd bet, it will hit us again as soon as opponents think that we are dangerous enough that going for counters against us is the best chance to get something out of a game.

 

[NZT-One]

LVG's stucture was very rigid, very slow and very predictable. Players stayed in their zones and moved where they were told. It was incredibly boring football by numbers.

I don't want to watch predictable phases of passing every week. You don't have to be a solely possession based team, keeping the ball for the sake of it when you are ahead is fine by me, control the game and don't the other team
back in, last night was good example of what not to do.

What do I want to see good high tempo attacking football. With good passing and movement, most of the first half last night and the first half against Everton, recognising the opportunities and exploiting the opposition. Not just playing the same way every week regardless of the score or who you are playing.

For me too many of the players in this Utd squad just don't have the required tools to play high tempo 1-2 touch quick passing football. That's the problem, it's just too slow most of the time, they are too slow to recognise the spaces and opportunities, to make the moves, to control and move the ball.

Not sure, who you are arguing against because I didn't ask for things even resembling the things you pointed out.

They just react to the situations they are too slow to recognise rather than create them to their benefit.

Which is 100% the reason why people are advocating for adding more control into our game, to get better at creating an environment that will create benefits.

I have to say it - if you want it or not, adding possession game is a natural evolution of every top team. You think Tiki-Taka Barca wasn't able to quickly transition play and hit you when the chance where there? Or Bayern under Pep? Every team that is striving to be better than all others is needed to be able to play both those styles to a high degree. We will not be an exception from that rule.

 

[Loony BoB]

What are you complaining about. What has said they want us to play sideways passes and backward passes

Quite the opposite, it's other people who are complaining, I'm pointing out that I'm not complaining. I don't care about possession football ahead of attacking football. I like it that we take risks with creativity.

 

[Oranges038]

Not sure, who you are arguing against because I didn't ask for things even resembling the things you pointed out.


Which is 100% the reason why people are advocating for adding more control into our game, to get better at creating an environment that will create benefits.

I have to say it - if you want it or not, adding possession game is a natural evolution of every top team. You think Tiki-Taka Barca wasn't able to quickly transition play and hit you when the chance where there? Or Bayern under Pep? Every team that is striving to be better than all others is needed to be able to play both those styles to a high degree. We will not be an exception from that rule.

Not arguing against anything, just making the point that his brand of possession based football was too rigid and very boring.

I agree, the top teams can play and have to be able to play both.

But, those transitions have to happen higher up the pitch for them to be so effective. So, you have to be able to play to keep the ball to create the chances and pressure in order to maintain it high for these chances to open up.

To do all these things, you need players that are good at keeping and rotating the ball, moving it forward and keeping the pressure high. You need a defence that can play high, a keeper that can play high. You can't turn over the ball on your own 18 and expect to create from it anymore. Which is what Utd are trying to do most of the time.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

Midfield is where we need to be absolutely ruthless. move on from mctominay and fred. Bring in at least 2 starter quality CM options who can play deeper and pass well. Add those to case and eriksen and have 4 players who can play deeper in midfield depending on the opponent/strategy needed. Bruno can be the main CAM option, eriksen rotate in there as well. Perhaps if sabitzer is super cheap then keep him as the advanced player next to the CF, but def not as the deep option. We need to vastly improve our deep cm options. Getting a better ball playing Gk wont matter if our midfield still cant pass and move properly.

 

[MO_Football92]

Not sure, who you are arguing against because I didn't ask for things even resembling the things you pointed out.


Which is 100% the reason why people are advocating for adding more control into our game, to get better at creating an environment that will create benefits.

I have to say it - if you want it or not, adding possession game is a natural evolution of every top team. You think Tiki-Taka Barca wasn't able to quickly transition play and hit you when the chance where there? Or Bayern under Pep? Every team that is striving to be better than all others is needed to be able to play both those styles to a high degree. We will not be an exception from that rule.

Would you say Real Madrid play possession football under Ancelotti? They normally give away possession and focus on turnovers particularly in the champions league knockout stage

 

[NZT-One]

Not arguing against anything, just making the point that his brand of possession based football was too rigid and very boring.

I agree, the top teams can play and have to be able to play both.

But, those transitions have to happen higher up the pitch for them to be so effective. So, you have to be able to play to keep the ball to create the chances and pressure in order to maintain it high for these chances to open up.

To do all these things, you need players that are good at keeping and rotating the ball, moving it forward and keeping the pressure high. You need a defence that can play high, a keeper that can play high. You can't turn over the ball on your own 18 and expect to create from it anymore. Which is what Utd are trying to do most of the time.

I agree. Probably wouldn't phrase so absolute because when you have a fast player like Rashford, Balls in behind the defence can always be a way to go. But in general, I agree with you - the transitional play has of course its own sub-categories, while the most prominent since a few years is the focus on high turnovers. Who knows, what will come next.

Would you say Real Madrid play possession football under Ancelotti? They normally give away possession and focus on turnovers particularly in the champions league knockout stage

Unfortunately I haven't seen any Real Madrid game for quite some time. Aparst from the odd Clasico, mostly only one half and not focussing much on the game. What I know about Ancelotti is, that he is very pragmatic and will chose a playstyle that he feels is best suited for the game. Against Barca, with fast attackers like Vinicius and Rodrygo available and Passers like Kroos, he certainly could choose a way with a compact defense and focussing on fast counter attacks. But Real certainly also has the players to play more possession oriented when needed.

Statswise based on fbref, they seem to be pretty comparable to Barcelona.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Would you say Real Madrid play possession football under Ancelotti? They normally give away possession and focus on turnovers particularly in the champions league knockout stage

The difference is often how and where they give possession away though. It's rarely cheaply or through some shitty decision made, the ideas and intent are normally very good and the level of technicality is extremely high even if they aren't in a robo-Pep esque system on the ball.

Just go watch the match the other day when they schooled Chelsea. It's very free flowing and fast paced without being the modern "structured" type of play you see from teams like Arsenal or City that look to just choke the life out of opponents.

 

[Abraxas]

It's always about quality of the individual's technically. You can't really make a silk purse out of a sow's ear when it comes to complete control of games and possession football. Not in the modern game where the physicality is high, pressing is high, mistakes are going to be magnified. I don't even know if you'd get away with a LVG style, slow as feck possession football that is risk averse with lesser players anymore. So those little feck ups we do, passing it to the wrong foot, a heavy touch, passing it behind or in front of people, they're all going to add up and compromise your ability to keep the ball. Our probablity of doing any one of those things is higher than teams that have dominated the ball.

I think once the ball leaves the feet of Martinez and Shaw, who are extremely reliable in any situation, it feels like anything can happen. I don't see too many like a Rodri or Bernardo Silva where you know the touch is going to be perfect, the pass probably perfect. There are varying degrees of reliability through our team, but I think it's fair to say, the average technical level is lower than it should be. We have our own qualities such as pace with Rashford, good individual skill with Bruno, the grit and positioning of Casemiro, the creativity of Eriksen, but who are you nailing your colours to the mast on being extremely reliable at keeping the ball as one of their primary skills? It just isn't there, really. Furthermore, I would say it is not really there in any part of these player's careers which tells me it is not just coaching, it is fundamentally about the qualities we have and the balance of this side.

If we inject someone totally reliable in midfield, a striker who is good at holding it up (as we've seen with Martial), then the dynamic starts to change. Then you've got a spine coming together focused around possession. But I think this manager is not possession obsessed. I do believe he values control because he talks about it all the time, but it is with a view to dynamic, quick interchanges. I don't think we are trying to recreate a Pep style side.

 

[Telsim]

Damning stuff...

 

[Loony BoB]

Would love to see those infographics comparing us with the winning United teams of the PL era.

 

[Dominos]

I almost don't want to hear about individual defensive errors until we learn to pass the ball.

The ability to keep the ball is truly horrendous. The whole team from attack, midfield, defence and keeper couldn't complete a 5 yard pass tonight.

Games like Forest where we passed the ball well are the rare exception.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

We also, always, without fail, always play the ball to the wrong foot or two feet behind a running player.

 

[croadyman]

Because serious lack of technical players so our quality on the ball leaves much to be desired

 

[DownRiver]

Our team is very weird, you don’t know what you will get.

It literally felt that we had already played 90 minutes just before the game. I couldn’t believe the number of simple passes being played 10 yards to either side of the team mate. This was literally every player. I am very concerned that Ten Hag is not setting up the team with motivation for every game, as you can also see we hardly ever start the game with high energy.

 

[giggs-beckham]

Possession isn't coached to the players we've never been a team that looks after the ball. LVG managed it with some poor players but was the wrong manager in the end obviously.

 

[flappyjay]

And in the Caicedo thread I look like a mad man because I said I would rather we go for someone who can control matches. Someone who can use the ball at his feet to calm these idiots down when they start making their rushed wayward passes.

 

[Romez]

We don't have the players to do it, in fact I'd argue we only have one, Martinez.

Look at Man City and they are full of them. KDB, Silva, Gundogan, Grealish, Foden.

All high IQ, composed, technically proficient players. Our players shit themselves at the slightest press.

 

[Leftback99]

I remember many getting excited about seeing passing drill training videos last summer. Doesn't make any difference with the same players.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

And in the Caicedo thread I look like a mad man because I said I would rather we go for someone who can control matches. Someone who can use the ball at his feet to calm these idiots down when they start making their rushed wayward passes.

Like who?

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Like who?

Mats Wieffer of Feeyenoord......

 

[Rockets Redglare]

Mats Wieffer of Feeyenoord......

Yes let’s sign another random Dutch player, that always ends well.

 

[Offside]

We don’t have calm, technical midfield players.

Even players like Kovacic and Jorginho, who are hardly world beater midfield players, are the reason Chelsea were able to go so far in the CL as they are so technically good at retaining the ball and keeping possession ticking over. Chelsea may be lacking a player on Bruno’s level which is why we did better than them in the league even when they’re winning CLs.

Eriksen and Bruno may have the productivity, but they lose the ball an awful lot, sometimes criminally. Casemiro also is a great defensive midfielder but not great on the ball. When you’re losing the ball that often you’re giving the opposition a huge chance in the game which in Europe you get punished for.

This is why we are so bad in Europe and so bad at keeping hold of leads, and so bad to watch. We need technical players in the middle of the park.

People used to moan about Carrick and yes he wasn’t a world beating midfielder, but that calmness and ability just to keep possession ticking over is why our best years in Europe were when he was at his best.

My point being we don’t need the complete midfielder, they can even be average going forward and love going sideways and backwards just like Carrick was, but we need someone who is technically excellent at retaining possession.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

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[flappyjay]

Like who?

I don't know who, I hope our scouts and EtH find that person.

 

[flappyjay]

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Midfield is where we lost and these stats prove it.

 

[Oranges038]

We don’t have calm, technical players.

Even players like Kovacic and Jorginho, who are hardly world beater midfield players, are the reason Chelsea were able to go so far in the CL as they are so technically good at retaining the ball and keeping possession ticking over. Chelsea may be lacking a player on Bruno’s level which is why we did better than them in the league even when they’re winning CLs.

Eriksen and Bruno may have the productivity, but they lose the ball an awful lot, sometimes criminally. Casemiro also is a great defensive midfielder but not great on the ball. When you’re losing the ball that often you’re giving the opposition a huge chance in the game which in Europe you get punished for.

This is why we are so bad in Europe and so bad at keeping hold of leads, and so bad to watch. We need technical players in the middle of the park.

People used to moan about Carrick and yes he wasn’t a world beating midfielder, but that calmness and ability just to keep possession ticking over is why our best years in Europe were when he was at his best.

My point being we don’t need the complete midfielder, they can even be average going forward and love going sideways and backwards just like Carrick was, but we need someone who is technically excellent at retaining possession.

Could have just left it at that.

 

[Oranges038]

Possession isn't coached to the players we've never been a team that looks after the ball. LVG managed it with some poor players but was the wrong manager in the end obviously.

He managed it by giving them strict instructions on where to be and where to play the ball. That why it worked to some extent but was ultimately the most boring football I've ever seen.

It was like paint by numbers football.

 

[JB7]

Midfield is where we lost and these stats prove it.

Well no I'd say we lost it by making 3 abysmal errors that gave away goals, none of which were midfield errors.

End of the day we were shite all over the pitch but without those errors there's no goals.

 

[Dominos]

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Problem with pass % it doesn't account for getting tackled, or giving it away with a poor first touch.

We need a "total losses of possession" stat. And an unforced errors stat like in tennis. The amount of 5/10 yard passes we misplace is just criminal at this level.

I'd like to see a compilation video of all our losses of possession across a 90 minute game to highlight how frequently we lose the ball in the most unforgiveable circumstances.

 

[jackal&hyde]

Because serious lack of technical players so our quality on the ball leaves much to be desired

This plus it takes more then a few months to learn a new system. If we had a WC team the transition would have been easier but we do not. So too many mediocre players that are yet to fully understand the system.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Yes let’s sign another random Dutch player, that always ends well.

Sure. I mean signing an obscure argentine from their dutch league proved such a disaster innit....

 

[j65454]

We call it rubbish not 'garbage' in this country!

 

[croadyman]

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Jesus no wonder we can't control games

 

[croadyman]

We don’t have calm, technical midfield players.

Even players like Kovacic and Jorginho, who are hardly world beater midfield players, are the reason Chelsea were able to go so far in the CL as they are so technically good at retaining the ball and keeping possession ticking over. Chelsea may be lacking a player on Bruno’s level which is why we did better than them in the league even when they’re winning CLs.

Eriksen and Bruno may have the productivity, but they lose the ball an awful lot, sometimes criminally. Casemiro also is a great defensive midfielder but not great on the ball. When you’re losing the ball that often you’re giving the opposition a huge chance in the game which in Europe you get punished for.

This is why we are so bad in Europe and so bad at keeping hold of leads, and so bad to watch. We need technical players in the middle of the park.

People used to moan about Carrick and yes he wasn’t a world beating midfielder, but that calmness and ability just to keep possession ticking over is why our best years in Europe were when he was at his best.

My point being we don’t need the complete midfielder, they can even be average going forward and love going sideways and backwards just like Carrick was, but we need someone who is technically excellent at retaining possession.

Yeah definitely not enough players who are capable of retaining possession

 

[Dominos]

Not to take away from the result but worth noting we had 39% possession today with our first choice midfield and attack starting, and only really Martinez missing in defence (Lindelof as good as Varane on the ball so not much relevance there).

Brighton are a good side but it's almost surreal that they can keep the ball and build up play that much better than us.

I'm still crying out for an "unforced errors" stat in football like in tennis, for every time we inexplicably lose the ball under the most basic circumstances.

 

[Stobzilla]

Not to take away from the result but worth noting we had 39% possession today with our first choice midfield and attack starting, and only really Martinez missing in defence (Lindelof as good as Varane on the ball so not much relevance there).

Brighton are a good side but it's almost surreal that they can keep the ball and build up play that much better than us.

I'm still crying out for an "unforced errors" stat in football like in tennis, for every time we inexplicably lose the ball under the most basic circumstances.

I thought it seemed obvious that we were content to let their centre backs have it and not get drawn in by the la pausa.

Brighton want you to come on to them, the easiest counter is to not engage their back line in a full on manner.