France : proposal to ban wearing of the veil for minors and the Burkini

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

French state schools turn away dozens of girls wearing Muslim abaya dress


The French education minister has said that nearly 300 pupils arrived at school on Monday wearing the abaya, the long Muslim robe which was banned in schools last week.
Most of the girls agreed to change into other clothes.
According to official figures, 298 girls - mainly aged 15 or more - turned up at school in the banned garment.
Under instructions laid down by the ministry, there followed in each case a period of dialogue with school staff.
Most girls then agreed to dress differently and were able to start classes.
However, 67 girls refused to comply and were sent home.
A further period of dialogue with their families will now ensue. If that fails, they will be excluded.
Set against the 12 million school boys and girls who started term on Monday, the government believes the figures show that its ban has been broadly accepted.
However, a legal challenge by a group representing some Muslims goes before the courts later today.
At the end of August, the education minister announced that pupils would be banned from wearing the loose-fitting full-length robes worn by some Muslim women in France's state-run schools at the start of the new school year on 4 September.

French state schools turn away dozens of girls wearing Muslim abaya dress - BBC News

France is a deeply Islamaphobic country.

So the dress code at the school was no Abaya but the kids turned up in the item of clothing the schools/distract has banned and then most agreed to change into clothes that were allowed?

 

[Mogget]

You're sceptical of Arab & African school girls wearing loose onesies. That's European alt right dog whistling.

I grew up as a Muslim. I assure you I'm as far from the European alt right as possible. In fact, knowing what I know about Islam, I'd say your views are closer to the European alt right's than mine

 

[Fingeredmouse]

The French led the fight to expel Muslims from Europe when they led the massacres in Al Andulus, today they're trying a different tact to expel Muslims from France again.

Don't forget many Jews in the Nazis concentration camps were captured and handed over by the French.

For feck sake.

 

[africanspur]

Which posters are you talking about as I don't see anyone on here who comes across as right wing nutjobs? Schools mix with pupils of all religions. the Uk is far far behind.

I'm sorry but in this particular case, the UK is not far far behind at all.

 

[africanspur]

The French led the fight to expel Muslims from Europe when they led the massacres in Al Andulus, today they're trying a different tact to expel Muslims from France again.

Don't forget many Jews in the Nazis concentration camps were captured and handed over by the French.

This is a nonsensical post in so many ways.

 

[africanspur]

Do we have studies on wether these dresses make it more difficult for girls to connect with their peers or not? If so, I don’t really see an issue with a ban like that.

Do we have studies on whether being homosexual/ trans / a practicing Jew makes it more difficult for students to connect with their peers? And if so.....

Also not sure why you keep on mentioning the niqab, when this latest news has literally nothing to do with that?

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Let's hope they increase the retirement age to 70 over there.

 

[africanspur]

I grew up as a Muslim. I assure you I'm as far from the European alt right as possible. In fact, knowing what I know about Islam, I'd say your views are closer to the European alt right's than mine

I'm not saying you're alt right at all (nor would I have used that term in this context anyway) but I'm not sure this is that great a defence?

One of my wife's cousins grew up a Muslim and he is completely unironically now a genuine fascist and the most islamophobic person I know. Believes the Muslims in the ME should be bombed to oblivion and the Jews/ Christians allowed to start again etc etc.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Let's hope they increase the retirement age to 70 over there.

What's that got to do with there being no religion in state schools?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I'm sorry but in this particular case, the UK is not far far behind at all.

If the UK is treating each schoolchild differently because of their religion, they are.

 

[africanspur]

If the UK is treating each schoolchild differently because of their religion, they are.

That isn't what is happening at all of course and you know it.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

That isn't what is happening at all of course and you know it.

The french system is being criticised because religion is not part of state school life. So how advanced are the UK?

 

[HTG]

Do we have studies on whether being homosexual/ trans / a practicing Jew makes it more difficult for students to connect with their peers? And if so.....

Also not sure why you keep on mentioning the niqab, when this latest news has literally nothing to do with that?

Because the word veil is literally in the thread title.

 

[africanspur]

Because the word veil is literally in the thread title.

Thread title is also 2 and a half years old.

People are currently clearly debating the ban on the abaya? Which has nothing to do with covering the face?

 

[The Corinthian]

I grew up as a Muslim. I assure you I'm as far from the European alt right as possible. In fact, knowing what I know about Islam, I'd say your views are closer to the European alt right's than mine

What's alt right about my views?

 

[HTG]

Thread title is also 2 and a half years old.

People are currently clearly debating the ban on the abaya? Which has nothing to do with covering the face?

I don't understand the significance of that. It's still the threads topic, isn't it?
And I have already admitted that I was wrong regarding the abaya and explained that I researched it badly.

 

[Dumbstar]

What's alt right about my views?

He's talking about me as I called a couple out, including him. I'll just leave other posters here to read their posts for themselves.

 

[tomaldinho1]

The french system is being criticised because religion is not part of state school life. So how advanced are the UK?

UK is slowly sacking off religion in general I think, slowly but surely.

 

[maniak]

According to these rules, can kids show up to school in a ronaldo portugal kit, given the FPF badge is basically a christian cross?

 

[JPRouve]

According to these rules, can kids show up to school in a ronaldo portugal kit, given the FPF badge is basically a christian cross?

In theory it only applies to ostentious symbols, so in this case it wouldn't, the same way you can have Tunisia jersey with a massive crescent and star. In reality almost everywhere you can have the abaya, the niqab , crosses, kipas and everything else without issues because schools don't actually care that much unless something else happens. When it comes to clothes the only thing that is likely to be picked up almost systematically is wearing a cap iin a classroom.

This is just a case of utter stupidity from the ministry, it won't be applied in most places and no one asked them. They should focus on the illiteracy rates.

 

[Mogget]

I'm not saying you're alt right at all (nor would I have used that term in this context anyway) but I'm not sure this is that great a defence?

One of my wife's cousins grew up a Muslim and he is completely unironically now a genuine fascist and the most islamophobic person I know. Believes the Muslims in the ME should be bombed to oblivion and the Jews/ Christians allowed to start again etc etc.

That's fair, probably not the best defence. I'd say I'm a very left wing and liberal agnostic so I just found it hilarious that I'm being compared to the alt right.

What's alt right about my views?

Depends how strictly you follow the religion but I'd say Islam's views on things like homosexuality and a woman's role in society aren't too dissimilar to the alt right's views on them

 

[George Owen]

What about kids with mutilated genitalia for religious reasons?

 

[africanspur]

The french system is being criticised because religion is not part of state school life. So how advanced are the UK?

Much more advanced than strongly islamophobic France in this case?

Religion is not part of state school life in the UK either.

You go to school and you learn RE about all the different religions. Nobody is forcing any religion down your throat in a non religious school and you also have non catholics going to catholic schools for example cos they're good schools.

You can do so while someone is wearing a cross, a yarmulke, a turban and a hijab if they so wish.

You don't get ridiculous situations where children are turned away because of their clothing with regards to religion, or in this case, culture.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Much more advanced than strongly islamophobic France in this case?

Religion is not part of state school life in the UK either.

You go to school and you learn RE about all the different religions. Nobody is forcing any religion down your throat in a non religious school and you also have non catholics going to catholic schools for example cos they're good schools.

You can do so while someone is wearing a cross, a yarmulke, a turban and a hijab if they so wish.

You don't get ridiculous situations where children are turned away because of their clothing with regards to religion, or in this case, culture.

Well done - Islamophobic. So predictable. Just as well the Uk is so liberal. Unbelievable.

Sikhs are moaning as well but Christians can't moan because they don't practice properly is about the summary of victimisation of the last couple of pages.

What about atheists , those who don't believe in any God at all.

Were they islamophhobic in 1905 when this law came out. No religion in schools, everyone everyone is treated the same , no religious symbols to differentiate between pupils.

What if I joined the Cucumber religious sect insisted on wearing a cucumber.

 

[africanspur]

Well done - Islamophobic. So predictable. Just as well the Uk is so liberal. Unbelievable.

Sikhs are moaning as well but Christians can't moan because they don't practice properly is about the summary of victimisation of the last couple of pages.

What about atheists , those who don't believe in any God at all.

Were they islamophhobic in 1905 when this law came out. No religion in schools, everyone everyone is treated the same , no religious symbols to differentiate between pupils.

What if I joined the Cucumber religious sect insisted on wearing a cucumber.

Can you ever criticise anything to do with France or make reference to any conversation without also bringing up the UK? The actual French are more able to do so than you are?

What about atheists? Funny cos my kids are atheists and went to school with muslims, sikhs and jews and didn't spontaneously combust whenever they came across someone from those religions at school wearing their religious clothes. Amazing stuff isn't it.

Can you reference the 1905 law about North African and Gulf Arabic cultural garb please? Thanks.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Can you ever criticise anything to do with France or make reference to any conversation without also bringing up the UK? The actual French are more able to do so than you are?

What about atheists? Funny cos my kids are atheists and went to school with muslims, sikhs and jews and didn't spontaneously combust whenever they came across someone from those religions at school. Amazing stuff isn't it.

Can you reference the 1905 law about North African and Gulf Arabic cultural garb please? Thanks.

It wasn't me who brought up the UK. ??? see post #144 for the hard of reading. oh dear!

The 1905 law separates the state and religion, ergo state schools and religion. How many times.

The schools are mixed and of all different religions and all mix together.

Why are you trying to tell the French what their laws should be and have been so for 118 years? For all religions not just Islam.

 

[africanspur]

It wasn't me who brought up the UK. ??? see post #144 for the hard of reading. oh dear!

The 1905 law separates the state and religion, ergo state schools and religion. How many times.

The schools are mixed and of all different religions and all mix together.

Why are you trying to tell the French what their laws should be and have been so for 118 years? For all religions not just Islam.

For our conversation, you did, seeing as I wasn't talking to Dumbstar?

The abaya is not a religious item of clothing. How many times.

How am I trying to tell the French what their laws are or should be? I am commenting my opinion on the French approach to this. You are not French. The only actual French person in this thread has said its ridiculous. I haven't been to France for a long time and have almost no interest in going again any time soon.

Out of interest, if the old law is so crystal clear, why did the education minister feel the need to so clearly outline this rule recently?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

For our conversation, you did, seeing as I wasn't talking to Dumbstar?

The abaya is not a religious item of clothing. How many times.

How am I trying to tell the French what their laws are or should be? I am commenting my opinion on the French approach to this. You are not French. The only actual French person in this thread has said its ridiculous. I haven't been to France for a long time and have almost no interest in going again any time soon.

Out of interest, if the old law is so crystal clear, why did the education minister feel the need to so clearly outline this rule recently?

You replied to my reply to Dumbstar - pfff. You're losing the plot.

If the abaya is not a religious item of clothing, why is there this discussion and why did you call France islamophobic - Keep digging, you'll soon be in Australia.

Now you're telling me which nationality I am. You're not British then?

He obviously didn't need to as obviously the abaya is not a religious item of clothing?

The Mad Hatter's Tea party.

 

[redshaw]

Seems more like a fashion and dress from a different part of the world much like western dresses of length and gowns. You could label various western clothing as Christian/Catholic, people wearing such clothing on Sundays to churches. What type of clothing is non religious? Some form of western clothing? How would someone from Pakistan view it?

In the Muslim community near me I've noticed a shift to traditional dress even in younger males, I don't see a problem in going to school in it.

Is an abaya a religious symbol or not ? Muslims seem divided.

Maybe allow it then if no consensus? Why be so forthright like France or someone there can't be wrong?

 

[africanspur]

You replied to my reply to Dumbstar - pfff. You're losing the plot.

If the abaya is not a religious item of clothing, why is there this discussion and why did you call France islamophobic - Keep digging, you'll soon be in Australia.

Now you're telling me which nationality I am. You're not British then?

He obviously didn't need to as obviously the abaya is not a religious item of clothing?

The Mad Hatter's Tea party.

No actually, I'm not British. I have a British passport but I wasn't born or raised here and wouldn't consider myself British no. Guess its partly why I'm not britishspur.

I called France islamophobic because of some of my wife's friends' experiences, who are Muslim, when they've travelled to France, Muslim people I know from France and their experiences (if they are practicing) and stuff like this?

Ah so last year the abaya wasn't a religious piece of clothing and suddenly this year, it is?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

No actually, I'm not British. I have a British passport but I wasn't born or raised here and wouldn't consider myself British no. Guess its partly why I'm not britishspur.

I called France islamophobic because of some of my wife's friends' experiences, who are Muslim, when they've travelled to France, Muslim people I know from France and their experiences (if they are practicing) and stuff like this?

Ah so last year the abaya wasn't a religious piece of clothing and suddenly this year, it is?

I don't care which nationality, colour or religion you are or anyone else for that matter. I don't care what people wear or look like.

My point the whole way through is that the law states that religion and state are separate. This I agree with.

I do consider myself both British and French and have dual nationality having lived most of my life between the two and having a French wife for 48 years and an extensive French family.

I have witnessed 'at least' ( this is extremely generous) as much islamophobia in the UK and elsewhere as in France over a long period of time. There are sad people everywhere.

Personally, I have no opinion as to whether the abaya is a religious piece of clothing ... unless someone says that banning it is islamophobic which therefore suggests it is.

 

[RedTiger]

I don't care which nationality, colour or religion you are or anyone else for that matter. I don't care what people wear or look like.

My point the whole way through is that the law states that religion and state are separate. This I agree with.

I do consider myself both British and French and have dual nationality having lived most of my life between the two and having a French wife for 48 years and an extensive French family.

I have witnessed 'at least' ( this is extremely generous) as much islamophobia in the UK and elsewhere as in France over a long period of time. There are sad people everywhere.

Personally, I have no opinion as to whether the abaya is a religious piece of clothing ... unless someone says that banning it is islamophobic which therefore suggests it is.

The reason some are saying its islamophobia is because the French education minster was asked how they would differentiate between an abaya and any other loose long dress, the answer was that they'd look at the pupils religion.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The reason some are saying its islamophobia is because the French education minster was asked how they would differentiate between an abaya and any other loose long dress, the answer was that they'd look at the pupils religion.

He says he wrote to parents explaining why and in the end 67 pupils out of the whole country were refused entry out of 12 million who started the new term.
Many more were no doubt refused entry for many other reasons but that's not a story.

 

[africanspur]

I don't care which nationality, colour or religion you are or anyone else for that matter. I don't care what people wear or look like.

My point the whole way through is that the law states that religion and state are separate. This I agree with.

I do consider myself both British and French and have dual nationality having lived most of my life between the two and having a French wife for 48 years and an extensive French family.

I have witnessed 'at least' ( this is extremely generous) as much islamophobia in the UK and elsewhere as in France over a long period of time. There are sad people everywhere.

Personally, I have no opinion as to whether the abaya is a religious piece of clothing ... unless someone says that banning it is islamophobic which therefore suggests it is.

So then you do care? Because for some people, how they look and what they wear is absolutely inextricably linked with their religion and there is no separation.

That's good for you. However, I think I'll take the word of actual Muslims, some of whom wear clothing which clearly marks them out as so, on their experiences in the 2 countries.

Its the same as when Sikhs get attacked following any Islamist terrorist attack. The intent is quite clearly islamophobic, even if the person doing it is too dumb to realise they're attacking a Sikh and not a Muslim.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

So then you do care? Because for some people, how they look and what they wear is absolutely inextricably linked with their religion and there is no separation.

That's good for you. However, I think I'll take the word of actual Muslims, some of whom wear clothing which clearly marks them out as so, on their experiences in the 2 countries.

Its the same as when Sikhs get attacked following any Islamist terrorist attack. The intent is quite clearly islamophobic, even if the person doing it is too dumb to realise they're attacking a Sikh and not a Muslim.

Gordon Bennett.
You don't think I know or have met Muslims or all different kinds of religions and non-religious people from all over the world in all different countries in the world. Weird?

You should probably re-read your last sentence. What?!!!
Think you have lost it this time! Take care!

By the way there are only 30000 Sikhs in France, mainly living in the same area near Paris. There are 500k+ in the Uk so whatever you're rambling about probably didn't take place in France.

If you go to school in France, for the fourteen thousandth time, religion and the state is separate and anyone who lives here knows that.

 

[Zlatattack]

This is a nonsensical post in so many ways.

I've not even mentioned what France did to Africans and continues to do so even today.

France is a xenophobic hellhole desperately trying to drive out Muslims.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Can you ever criticise anything to do with France or make reference to any conversation without also bringing up the UK? The actual French are more able to do so than you are?

What about atheists? Funny cos my kids are atheists and went to school with muslims, sikhs and jews and didn't spontaneously combust whenever they came across someone from those religions at school wearing their religious clothes. Amazing stuff isn't it.

Can you reference the 1905 law about North African and Gulf Arabic cultural garb please? Thanks.

You see, if you move abroad and are genuinely happy with the move then what happens in the country you move from, or too, doesn't rile you that much. You don't have to bin out the country you left, or deify your new country at every opportunity, because you are at ease with the decision.

I always feel a bit sorry for those, who I guess on one level or another, are feeling that decision which most people would on some level if they are honest.

I just don't understand the need to become so vitriolic about matters, that you lead the thread count about a country you don't live in any more or can't stand a word against your newly adopted country and have to negatively reference the country you left which doesn't really defend the point being made.

Anyway that's my take for what its worth. Not just about any particular poster, a thought about quite a lot of the debates on the café.

 

[africanspur]

Gordon Bennett.
You don't think I know or have met Muslims or all different kinds of religions and non-religious people from all over the world in all different countries in the world. Weird?

You should probably re-read your last sentence. What?!!!
Think you have lost it this time! Take care!

By the way there are only 30000 Sikhs in France, mainly living in the same area near Paris. There are 500k+ in the Uk so whatever you're rambling about probably didn't take place in France.

If you go to school in France, for the fourteen thousandth time, religion and the state is separate and anyone who lives here knows that.

You probably have Paul.

You've also found yourself on the wrong part of the Dunning Kruger curve, whereby you seem to portray yourself and genuinely think of yourself as an expert on every single topic you insert yourself in.

However, you're also a white Brit, now living somewhere in the French countryside. Do you have a friendship group who would class themselves as Muslim? Or wear clothing that clearly shows they're Muslim. Do you have in laws who wear a hijab, who have visited you in the UK and who you have gone on holiday with across mainland Europe, including France? Who are all these Muslims you've met across the world recently who've talked to you about their experiences?

Re-read which last sentence? About the clothing which marks people out? I'm talking about the hijab?

I was actually referencing this: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/09/15/us/sikh-hate-crime-victims/index.html

Would you class these as islamophobic attacks?

Though potentially the same happened in the UK. There is a world outside of France.

 

[Tincanalley]

That’s where we have to disagree then. Because firstly I don’t believe a kid wearing a niqab is actually wanting to express anything. I think their parents want to express something through them.
And secondly, I strongly believe that making children wear anything that actively hides away their face is religiously motivated child abuse.

It’s a sensitive one. But being from a country where the church weirded excessive and nefarious power for far too long, I have to agree. These are rules imposed from without. Who makes them? A clique of self important men, usually. Adults can wear what they like.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You probably have Paul.

You've also found yourself on the wrong part of the Dunning Kruger curve, whereby you seem to portray yourself and genuinely think of yourself as an expert on every single topic you insert yourself in.

However, you're also a white Brit, now living somewhere in the French countryside. Do you have a friendship group who would class themselves as Muslim? Or wear clothing that clearly shows they're Muslim. Do you have in laws who wear a hijab, who have visited you in the UK and who you have gone on holiday with across mainland Europe, including France? Who are all these Muslims you've met across the world recently who've talked to you about their experiences?

Re-read which last sentence? About the clothing which marks people out? I'm talking about the hijab?

I was actually referencing this: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/09/15/us/sikh-hate-crime-victims/index.html

Would you class these as islamophobic attacks?

Though potentially the same happened in the UK. There is a world outside of France.

It's difficult to know where to start with this.
Your reference is an incident in the USA.
The last sentence I was referring to was the last sentence - ie you think it's islamophobic for someone to be upset after an Islamic Terrorist attack????? Really.

You seem to know a lot about my life but actually know nothing, just assumptions which are of course all completely wrong.
Giving you a small clue, which you've had many times in another thread, working for an international trading group with offices in the UK, France and many other countries, working with colleagues, friends right across the world. Another clue, the owners were not British or white. How many thousands of people I know, difficult to say.

Before that when I was younger I worked mainly in North and Central London, even for a while next to door to the White Hart Lane stadium. One isolated example among thousands - My best friend at that time was a Muslim of Pakistani origin. I said to him regularly, how do you put up with all this abuse? His reply was that he didn't want any trouble and just wanted to fit in. Pretending it didn't happen. Sounds familiar.

The attitude of Zemmour in France and Braverman in the UK - both trying so hard to be more French or English according to their views so that the racists and xenophobes won't notice.

Also my wife's sister married a Muslim half French/Algerian. I knew all his side of the family as well who lived in France. My younger daughter married a Buddhist of Welsh/Asian origins.

Now you're talking about the hijab - you told some other poster we were talking about the abaya.

Anyway, appararently the abaya is not now a religious item of clothing, therefore if it is banned it has nothing to do with religion any more than a baseball cap does and therefore would not be deemed as islamaphobic to ban it? So much flip-flopping.