Why?
France : proposal to ban wearing of the veil for minors and the Burkini
- Thread starter shamans
- Start date
How does it intrude your life then
Valid point. When I googled the kind of dress, basically all models were wearing headscarves. Because of which I assumed they belonged to the dress in some way. Without they are obviously all right. At least if the girls want to wear dresses.What qualifies as religious?
Generally speaking, I would solve the issue by creating a framework of rules to obey in regards to clothing for school, for example that the face must be visible and things like that, or I’d just make school uniforms mandatory. Avoids the religious angle.
Did you read my example with mennonites?
Would you be fine with a hijab?
Not that the schools are purely religion based. My grandsons attend a catholic school but it's a good school with good teachers, there's no religion thrust down their throats and they were never in their lives catholics.
Some people want to send their children to an English speaking school in France. They can if they want to and have all their education done in English.
Yeah a headscarf is one thing in certain contexts but even that is difficult to prove the religiosity of, if a woman comes in wearing a bandana is she obscuring her identity?
To me it seems that middle-eastern style looking dresses are not permitted while western ones are even if the form and shape are near identical. Some of those pics I got from googling "abaya dress" and some from "long sleeve dress" in one of the abaya dress pics the woman isn't even wearing a headscarf.
The idea was that school is supposed to be a sanctuary where the church has no influence or presence.
Why would I not?
I didn't say it did. For example if Jehovah's Witnesses knock on my door and start spouting all kinds of nonsense, they will be told to p!ss off.
I see. I'm curious about France's crackdown on religious garb, thought the sight of the burka is what offends people.
That's really silly when they are then going to be propelled into an adult and outside world where it does.
It should be a situation where religious studies are taught where children are given the education to be more accepting and understanding.
Don't think it's what offends most people. It's keeping all religious symbols, of any religion, out of schools.
Personally I couldn't give a damn. But the school is supposed to be completely free of all religious influence of any kind.
I think the fight for equality for girls is also a very leftist topic.
That’s definitely an issue. Which is why I wouldn’t ban them because of religious reasons, but would circumvent the issue by creating rules that don’t mention religion at all. I don’t even mind a kid wearing a chain with a cross, a Star of David or whatever. But Dressing your kid in ways that conceal their faces or that are designed to exclude them from their peers are a huge issue. And the issue aren’t the other kids being intolerant.
And, to add this, I don’t doubt even for a second that France has issues with Islamophobia. That’s a huge problem there. As it is all over Europe, really. But that shouldn’t bring us into a position where debates like these get co-opted by religious nutjobs and racist idiots. We should absolutely have a debate about what this does to children, young girls especially and how we should protect them, if necessary.
It predates the burqa(in France), other religions and Christianism in particular had to abide to these rules, in theory. In practice those things aren't actually applied at the exception of some weird teachers/supervisors.
Apologies, meant to write Niqab. I’m struggling with the right names a bit.
Being sceptical of organized religion doesn't make someone a member of the European alt right
I don't really care for these rules but your point makes no sense. Those kids aren't living exclusively in shcool, their parents and family can give them the religious education that they want outside of school. It is perfectly possible to have a strict laïcity in school while being taught all sorts of things outside of it. That's what nearly all of us have done without issue.
Should ban the Christmas holiday break as well. They can celebrate once they're 18
Yes, and I'd make sure that the students peers were given the right religious education and understanding in regards to why or what they're wearing.
A good classroom to me is one where children feel free to express themselves and who they are. Denying them of that is only a bad thing. It doesn't always have to be the case where they decide they will wear a hijab or niqab everyday, some children or adults wear them for periods and then choose not to anymore and vice versa.
That's what I mean, they are living outside of school where they express their religion or culture so it makes no sense to ban it in school and deny it from themselves or other students. If we want a progressive and understanding society then it makes no sense to me to ban these things...rather that we educate as to why or what it may mean to wear these things etc.
Wouldn't this all be sorted if all students were made to wear a certain type of uniform?
That’s where we have to disagree then. Because firstly I don’t believe a kid wearing a niqab is actually wanting to express anything. I think their parents want to express something through them.
And secondly, I strongly believe that making children wear anything that actively hides away their face is religiously motivated child abuse.
Unlikely. There will still be arguments on what constitutes as an acceptable uniform.
So you want schools to judge religions and religious habits?
You're sceptical of Arab & African school girls wearing loose onesies. That's European alt right dog whistling.
I wonder whether French students wear abaya when graduating from university.
great point!It's more than dog whistling. And the worst thing is these guys don't even know how alt right they are. They genuinely have no idea.
I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't because they had little exposure to the outside world other than online echo chambers and non mixing schools. They are about 20 years behind people in the UK, and actually content with it.
I want schools to teach about religion, yes. Included in that is religious/cultural clothing. If children are exposed to things more naturally and in schools about certain topics and things then I really think it is beneficial to society in the long term. Of course there are little intricacies to everything but generally speaking.
By expressing themselves I mean they are able to do so when wearing a hijab or niqab or not, aswell as them expressing their culture or religion etc. Yes, in some case you are right that there is a parental or partner control over religious clothing but that is another issue entirely. There will likely be some who are pressured into it but then there are likely children who are pressured into doing or wearing other things at school that aren't religiously linked too.
It has to be noted that some people wear a hijab for example as a cultural reason rather than religious.
I’m not sure why you keep talking about school girls wearing a face covering. That’s not what the story is about.
Schools teach religions from an historic standpoint but surely you are not going to make the point that schools should teach religions from a religious standpoint such as catechism?
No.
Also in this case, we are not really talking about a strictly religious clothing. Banning it is just plain moronic and no amount of explanation will be sufficient.
Which posters are you talking about as I don't see anyone on here who comes across as right wing nutjobs? Schools mix with pupils of all religions. the Uk is far far behind.
Which is why your initial post made no sense to me. Kids are taught religions from an historical standpoint, unless it changed it starts during the first year of middle school aka sixième.
The thread title mentions veils. As far as I’m concerned that includes veils that cover the face.
Also the point arose when I wanted to understand if the user I asked was against bans of clothing in general, or just particular ones. Which would help me understand their pov better.
Since when did Christians actually practice thier religion?
The French led the fight to expel Muslims from Europe when they led the massacres in Al Andulus, today they're trying a different tact to expel Muslims from France again.
Don't forget many Jews in the Nazis concentration camps were captured and handed over by the French.
Don't forget many Jews in the Nazis concentration camps were captured and handed over by the French.
Some do. But what's your point?
Oh for pity's sake. The most far right politician in France is a Jew from Algerian parentage.
Last edited:
First these principles were created for the Catholic Church more than 100 years ago. And many jews were saved and hidden by the French.
But nice try with your BS.