France : proposal to ban wearing of the veil for minors and the Burkini

[spontaneus1]

Can we also make wearing sandals with socks, illegal.

Badly needed in France too, it's the true pandemic over there.

 

[shamans]

In many parts of the world to even be an atheist is problematic. In the Netherlands people who leave Islam or Christianity are being haunted and sometimes even violence is used by family and relatives.

I think openly criticizing the religion is problematic in many parts of the world rather than being atheist itself which in itself is a big problem. To be honest, I don't know about the Netherlands but the U.S is full of atheists and I have never heard of an issue personally.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

I think openly criticizing the religion is problematic in many parts of the world rather than being atheist itself which in itself is a big problem. To be honest, I don't know about the Netherlands but the U.S is full of atheists and I have never heard of an issue personally.

Don’t know about the US but in the Netherlands there are definitely problems with people who turn away from their religion to become an atheist even just by not being religious anymore.

Suprised that’s not the case in the US. Thought I saw some documentaires about it but maybe I’m mistaken.

 

[shamans]

Don’t know about the US but in the Netherlands there are definitely problems with people who turn away from their religion to become an atheist even just by not being religious anymore.

Suprised that’s not the case in the US. Thought I saw some documentaires about it but maybe I’m mistaken.

In my personal experience, I don't know anyone. You'd be hard pressed to find a religious person on a lot of college campuses. If anything Christians and practicing Christians are ridiculed constantly, especially in liberal arts schools.

 

[WI_Red]

In my personal experience, I don't know anyone. You'd be hard pressed to find a religious person on a lot of college campuses. If anything Christians and practicing Christians are ridiculed constantly, especially in liberal arts schools.

which is also wrong. Mocking someone for their beliefs, if those beliefs are not hurting them or others, is wrong and petty.

 

[shamans]

which is also wrong. Mocking someone for their beliefs, if those beliefs are not hurting them or others, is wrong and petty.

Agreed

 

[Charlie Foley]

In Almada, across the river. The best of both worlds, I can get to Lisbon in 15 minutes and I don't have to pay turist prices for everything.

Funny, I found Lisbon incredibly affordable, compared to Dublin. But that sounds lovely.

 

[Kentonio]

In my personal experience, I don't know anyone. You'd be hard pressed to find a religious person on a lot of college campuses. If anything Christians and practicing Christians are ridiculed constantly, especially in liberal arts schools.

Experiences from the bible belt may differ from yours..

 

[Ecstatic]

I never even understood why racists wanted burkini’s banned. Banning a woman from wearing a piece of clothing at a beach? It’s literally no different to supposedly less progressive countries making women cover their skin.

I can see restrictions on wearing the burqa during the photograph for an ID, for example, but how in the feck is wearing a hijab on a beach an affront to anyone, even a secular dickhead like myself?

Because they view the burkini as a muslim thing and don't want France to become a muslim country..

As for the point - it hasn't been made law, the government haven't banned them - an amendment voted onto a bill voted by a group of RW senators that has to go to a committee stage and studied, eventually may come before parliament/government who still have to approve it .
Summary - not banned

The measures are very likely to be passed into legislation as part of the Loi Separatisme.

You are trying to understand idiots that happens to be sufficiently xenophobic that they propose laws that are against the interest of a substantial part of their traditional electorate, practicing catholics.

Attacking Islam and the people with Afrian roots (North and subsaharian, French or not) and present them as the #1 national issue that would federate the voters is a strategy that works. These days, they generally don't vote and when they vote they are more inclined to vote for Les Insoumis, the PS or small parties..or vote against RN if the former reaches the 2nd round.

LREM, LR and the RN will attack Islam and distract people with the so-called separatistes. Medias like BFM and CNews (Zemmour on a daily basis) are pushing hard towards this direction. Unfortunately, LREM or RN will win the next Presidential elections IMO

I agree it’s a weird rule. Don’t know the crime figures.

There are no official crime figures per type of so-called religious community. Women who wear veils are obviously not the people who make crime figures high.

Like I said a couple of times I don’t agree with the law. But if face covering clothing isn’t allowed then burqa’s shouldn’t be allowed either of course.

Because your face should be recognizable in the public space. I think in the case you mention the police won’t fine you because of the current situation but you can be fined for wearing a balaclava.

Face covering clothing and burqa are already forbidden.

 

[calodo2003]

Experiences from the bible belt may differ from yours..

That was a ridiculously absurd post. Religious students abound at every university. Then you have higher learning establishments like Liberty, Oral Roberts, & BYU, not to mention abortions like Bob Jones University.

 

[JPRouve]

Attacking Islam and the people with Afrian roots (North and subsaharian, French or not) as the main issue that would federate the voters is a strategy that works.

They generally don't vote and when they vote they are more inclined to vote for Les Insoumis, the PS or small parties

LREM, LR and the RN will attack the Islam and distract people with the so-called separatistes.

Medias like BFM and CNews (Zemmour on a daily basis) are pushing hard towards this direction.

Unfortunately, LREM or RN will win the next Presidential elections IMO

It doesn't work which is why they lost a huge amount of ground and are currently useless and have been in the last 10 years and that's not debateable.

 

[Ecstatic]

It doesn't work which is why they lost a huge amount of ground and are currently useless and have been in the last 10 years and that's not debateable.

Politicians know what they are doing.

The Muslims who vote (a minority) are inclined to opt for a political party unlikely to be in the top 3 of the 1st round of a Presidential election.

As history repeats itself, we will have in 2022 what we had in 2002 and 2017.

In 2017, 8.6 million voted for Macron in the 1st round and 20.7m in the 2nd round (France 67million)

No need to be popular to win a Presidential election.

 

[JPRouve]

Politicians know what they are doing.

The Muslims who vote are inclined to opt for a political party unlikely to be in the top 3 in the 1st round.

As history repeats itself, we will have in 2022 what we had in 2002 and 2017.

So you are saying that LR/UMP goal was to lose almost every elections since 2007? If it was their goal then yes, they know what they are doing.

 

[africanspur]

So is it true that the senate has now voted to ban girls under 18 from wearing the hijab in any public space and that Muslim mums who wear the hijab can't join school trips?

 

[Ecstatic]

So you are saying that LR/UMP goal was to lose almost every elections since 2007? If it was their goal then yes, they know what they are doing.

Before the emergence of LREM/Macron, only 2 mainstream political parties were supposed to rule the country between 1969 and 2012.

PS ruled the country from 1981 to 1995
LR/UMP ruled the country from 1997 to 2012 i.e. 15 consecutive years
2012: the country wanted change so voted for the PS

2017 is a different story because:
- the candidate of LR/UMP Fillon was involved in some scandals just before the election
- Macron has been sponsored by those who used to support PS/UMP (Attali &co)

These days, you know the reality i.e. the LR/UMP (no 'charismatic leader') is dead and does not set the political agenda

 

[JPRouve]

Before the emergence of LREM/Macron, only 2 mainstream political parties were supposed to rule the country between 1969 and 2012.

PS ruled the country from 1981 to 1995
LR/UMP ruled the country from 1997 to 2012 i.e. 15 consecutive years
2012: the country wanted change so voted for the PS

2017 is a different story because:
- the candidate of LR/UMP Fillon was involved in some scandals just before the election
- Macron has been sponsored by those who used to support PS/UMP (Attali &co)

These days, you know the reality i.e. the LR/UMP is dead and does not set the political agenda

So I'm right and you didn't read the post you responded to.

Edit: You realize that it's LR that is making all these daft proposals in the past weeks?

 

[Ecstatic]

So I'm right and you didn't read the post you responded to.

How many political parties can win an election? Only one, no?

The issue of the UMP/LR is not the political programme but the lack of a leader who would federate the traditional right.

We still don't know who will represent them in 2022

 

[JPRouve]

How many political parties can win an election? Only one, no?

The issue of the UMP/LR is not the political programme but the lack of a leader who would federate the traditional right.

We still don't know who will represent them in 2022

They lost ground at all level, this isn't just about the presidentials. And their leader lost in 2012 and 2017 anyway, if you try to pretend that Sarkozy wasn't a leader and that the issue wasn't his programme and general rhetoric then there is no point pursuing a conversation. Their issue is that since 2007 they turned their back to the traditional right in an attempt to steal potential far right electors and they miserably failed, they lost their electorate and the racists portion of the party felt encouraged to directly vote for FN/RN or join them(Thierry Mariani for example).

 

[Ecstatic]

Edit: You realize that it's LR that is making all these daft proposals in the past weeks?

I was not aware of that but my understanding is that LREM/RN/UMP try to seduce the same electorate. LREM is more ambiguous though.

 

[JPRouve]

I was not aware of that but my understanding is that LREM/RN/UMP try to seduce the same electorate. LREM is more ambiguous though.

No they don't. LREM is mainly center right, they essentially target the former electorate of UMP, UDF, Modem and a part of the PS. RN/LR are pretty much the same thing, they target the far right and the racist part of what was the UMP, the people the likes of Mariani and Ciotti targets.

 

[Ecstatic]

They lost ground at all level, this isn't just about the presidentials. And their leader lost in 2012 and 2017 anyway, if you try to pretend that Sarkozy wasn't a leader and that the issue wasn't his programme and general rhetoric then there is no point pursuing a conversation. Their issue is that since 2007 they turned their back to the traditional right in an attempt to steal potential far right electors and they miserably failed, they lost their electorate and the racists portion of the party felt encouraged to directly vote for FN/RN or join them(Thierry Mariani for example).

We disagree because you believe that voters vote for a political programme while I think they vote for an individual.

Sarkozy was successful but could not win a second time for various reasons.

In 2017, Fillon was really a great contender in 2017 but the scandals killed him.

Since 2017, the voice of the UMPS does not matter as Melenchon, Macron and Le Pen are more popular.

 

[WI_Red]

That was a ridiculously absurd post. Religious students abound at every university. Then you have higher learning establishments like Liberty, Oral Roberts, & BYU, not to mention abortions like Bob Jones University.

I wouldn't call it absurd as people's experiences will differ greatly.

I spend a total of [redacted out of shame] years on college campuses in undergrad/grad school. That times was split between public and religious based schools.

My experience at a religious University was extremely positive, but then again it was a Jesuit Uni, so not quite Bob Jones. The Brothers would throw a giant kegger on the green the first Friday of the school year. Ostensibly it was a welcome party for incoming freshman from Jesuit HS's, but there was somehow always enough food and beer for everyone. It was also a diverse population. Two of my closer friends were Jewish and Muslim and we used to joke that we were a living joke: A Catholic, a Jew and a Muslim walk into an Eastern Religions class..... damn those were good times.

Flip that to my [redacted] years spent in public Uni. I observed bigotry and spite coming from both sides. christian (small "c" is on purpose) student groups would protest the multicultural center that was providing a space for services for Muslim Hindu students. Conversely the Christian (big "C" on purpose) groups would be mocked for events they held by "enlightened" students. Both were wrong as the intent of the offended parties was not to harm others, only to support themselves.

Someone's faith, or lack thereof, is their personal choice. Calling it a "fairy tail", or telling someone they are going to hell, or preventing someone from wearing a piece of religious clothing/headwear, provides no benefit unless the intent is causing pain to others.

 

[calodo2003]

I wouldn't call it absurd as people's experiences will differ greatly.

I spend a total of [redacted out of shame] years on college campuses in undergrad/grad school. That times was split between public and religious based schools.

My experience at a religious University was extremely positive, but then again it was a Jesuit Uni, so not quite Bob Jones. The Brothers would throw a giant kegger on the green the first Friday of the school year. Ostensibly it was a welcome party for incoming freshman from Jesuit HS's, but there was somehow always enough food and beer for everyone. It was also a diverse population. Two of my closer friends were Jewish and Muslim and we used to joke that we were a living joke: A Catholic, a Jew and a Muslim walk into an Eastern Religions class..... damn those were good times.

Flip that to my [redacted] years spent in public Uni. I observed bigotry and spite coming from both sides. christian (small "c" is on purpose) student groups would protest the multicultural center that was providing a space for services for Muslim Hindu students. Conversely the Christian (big "C" on purpose) groups would be mocked for events they held by "enlightened" students. Both were wrong as the intent of the offended parties was not to harm others, only to support themselves.

Someone's faith, or lack thereof, is their personal choice. Calling it a "fairy tail", or telling someone they are going to hell, or preventing someone from wearing a piece of religious clothing/headwear, provides no benefit unless the intent is causing pain to others.

To think that the religious are ‘ridiculed constantly’ is absurd. They always have presence on campus, often times in large numbers. During my time spent at FSU, there were always events sponsored & put on by the various groups. There was overt criticism & ridicule, no doubt, but that was largely aimed at the individual shouting preachers who would stand on a soapbox in the quad, screaming denigrations at whomever walked by, especially females who dared to show bare midriffs, arms, or wear sandals (never got that one). You can only be told that you will burn in hell so often before you scream back something critical or negative.

The absolutist rhetoric is what I was mostly criticizing; shit doesn’t become true just because hyperbolic adverbs are used. Everyone has their own experiences, but absolutist generalities are a far cry removed from one’s anecdotal experiences.

 

[WI_Red]

To think that the religious are ‘ridiculed constantly’ is absurd. They always have presence on campus, often times in large numbers. During my time spent at FSU, there were always events sponsored & put on by the various groups. There was overt criticism & ridicule, no doubt, but that was largely aimed at the individual shouting preachers who would stand on a soapbox in the quad, screaming denigrations at whomever walked by, especially females who dared to show bare midriffs, arms, or wear sandals (never got that one). You can only be told that you will burn in hell so often before you scream back something critical or negative.

The absolutist rhetoric is what I was mostly criticizing; shit doesn’t become true just because hyperbolic adverbs are used. Everyone has their own experiences, but absolutist generalities are a far cry removed from one’s anecdotal experiences.

I think we are on the same page. Basically just treat people with respect (except for college Republicans, cuz feck those guys....I'm kidding...... mostly)

It also appears that FSU and UA (the shitty Alabama school, not to be confused with UAB or AU) were/are very similar.

 

[JPRouve]

We disagree because you believe that voters vote for a political programme while I think they vote for an individual.

Sarkozy was successful but could not win a second time for various reasons.

In 2017, Fillon was really a great contender in 2017 but the scandals killed him.

Since 2017, the voice of the UMPS does not matter as Melenchon, Macron and Le Pen are more popular.

No we disagree because you seemingly don't want to accept the fact that the presidentials aren't the only elections in France and that one of the main the reason behind absentention isn't about leadership, it has a lot to do with people thinking that their issues and concerns aren't adressed or a topic. I have been involved in politics and that's the remark that you will hear more often than not when you are canvassing. Now the difficulty for parties is that there is a lot of single-issue voters.

 

[calodo2003]

I think we are on the same page. Basically just treat people with respect (except for college Republicans, cuz feck those guys....I'm kidding...... mostly)

It also appears that FSU and UA (the shitty Alabama school, not to be confused with UAB or AU) were/are very similar.

Yep, we largely are

You’re not kidding. College republicans were / are downright spooky.

Tallahassle has always had a leftist lean to it, I would gather FSU was a bit more liberal than UA, but the Venn diagram of the two schools would be very overlapping regarding the student bodies.

 

[shamans]

Experiences from the bible belt may differ from yours..

I want to say not really but I don't want to generalize my experience so you might be correct.

I say this as someone who went to a college in the bible belt. However I think top rated colleges are different because they attract talent from a over the world so the local community is more international .

I'm sure there are colleges in the deep deep south that's different

 

[shamans]

To think that the religious are ‘ridiculed constantly’ is absurd. They always have presence on campus, often times in large numbers. During my time spent at FSU, there were always events sponsored & put on by the various groups. There was overt criticism & ridicule, no doubt, but that was largely aimed at the individual shouting preachers who would stand on a soapbox in the quad, screaming denigrations at whomever walked by, especially females who dared to show bare midriffs, arms, or wear sandals (never got that one). You can only be told that you will burn in hell so often before you scream back something critical or negative.

The absolutist rhetoric is what I was mostly criticizing; shit doesn’t become true just because hyperbolic adverbs are used. Everyone has their own experiences, but absolutist generalities are a far cry removed from one’s anecdotal experiences.

I went to top 20 college. There was a lot of christian hate and disrespect not from the college but from the students so you really don't have knowledge about this if you find it ridiculous.

Not like every person was out to attack the christians but I clearly rememebr way too many bigoted remarks towards practicing christians than I should.

One of our leading computer science teacher turned out to be a christian scholar or something as well and students would openly talk about how crazy and ridiculous that is.

 

[WI_Red]

I want to say not really but I don't want to generalize my experience so you might be correct.

I say this as someone who went to a college in the bible belt. However I think top rated colleges are different because they attract talent from a over the world so the local community is more international .

I'm sure there are colleges in the deep deep south that's different

I think we are taking this thread a smidge of topic, so I think I can summarize by saying: The one theme that runs through all college campuses is that there are bigotted assholes of every persuasion everywhere, and feck college republicans.

 

[calodo2003]

I went to top 20 college. There was a lot of christian hate and disrespect not from the college but from the students so you really don't have knowledge about this if you find it ridiculous.

Not like every person was out to attack the christians but I clearly rememebr way too many bigoted remarks towards practicing christians than I should.

One of our leading computer science teacher turned out to be a christian scholar or something as well and students would openly talk about how crazy and ridiculous that is.

What does a college rank have to do with anything?!?

It’s the absolutist absurdism, the transference of personal anecdotal experience into a blanket statement of ‘fact’ that is the issue. As I said earlier, no number of hyperbolic adverbs used makes one’s anecdotal experiences true everywhere. Anti-religious behavior exists on most every campus in our country, just like many religions (I would posit all the major ones) have their own groups / houses / defined meeting areas on most every campus in our country.

The fantasmagorical yarns you weave just aren’t rooted in reality.

 

[Redlyn]

Really is not the point of this thread but I would be curious to know what freedom a non religious person doesn't have.

The freedom to draw a cartoon of whoever/whatever I want without death threats, protests and just generally over the top behaviour because some religious people can't coexist with others who don't share their ridiculous beliefs.

 

[Ecstatic]

No they don't. LREM is mainly center right, they essentially target the former electorate of UMP, UDF, Modem and a part of the PS. RN/LR are pretty much the same thing, they target the far right and the racist part of what was the UMP, the people the likes of Mariani and Ciotti targets.

No because RN is supposed to be the political party that wants France to emancipate from the EU while LR=LREM=PS have relatively the same political agenda.

 

[WI_Red]

Really is not the point of this thread but I would be curious to know what freedom a non religious person doesn't have.

Buy beer on a Sunday in the South.

Edit: Or beer in general in many Southern counties on any day of the week.

 

[shamans]

Buy beer on a Sunday in the South.

Edit: Or beer in general in many Southern counties on any day of the week.

I see your point. I think there are some laws on beer before a certain time and after two or three am? I wasn't sure if that was religious as well. Anyway, yes that is definitely one thing I didn't think of but it's quite minimal Id say. Love for alcohol comes from all angles around here.

 

[Ecstatic]

So is it true that the senate has now voted to ban girls under 18 from wearing the hijab in any public space and that Muslim mums who wear the hijab can't join school trips?

Yes, since 31 March

 

[calodo2003]

Yes, since 31 March

So, has this become law or is it still in the works?

 

[WI_Red]

I see your point. I think there are some laws on beer before a certain time and after two or three am? I wasn't sure if that was religious as well. Anyway, yes that is definitely one thing I didn't think of but it's quite minimal Id say. Love for alcohol comes from all angles around here.

Those laws are absolutely 100% Christianity based. You may think of it as "minimal" but it is not. It is normalizing the implementation of laws based on a specific religious denominations (b/c as an Irish Catholic I can tell you we do not feck with anti alcohol laws) "values".

Bringing this back around to the thread topic, it would appear that the idea of this law, and similar ones bandied about in the US, is the flip side of the above. It is using the law to target a specific religious group.



Also, add buy "Chick - fil - A on a Sunday" to my list. I know it's not a legal law, but there is a natural law that decrees I will always crave it on Sundays.

 

[JPRouve]

No because RN is supposed to be the political party that wants France to emancipate from the EU while LR=LREM=PS have relatively the same political agenda.

RN isn't a single issue party and it wasn't built for the EU. I don't even know what to say after that type of claim.

 

[JPRouve]

So, has this become law or is it still in the works?

It's a proposed article to a larger proposed law, Loi séparatisme. To make it simple or complicated, it's a proposition to a proposition.

 

[shamans]

Those laws are absolutely 100% Christianity based. You may think of it as "minimal" but it is not. It is normalizing the implementation of laws based on a specific religious denominations (b/c as an Irish Catholic I can tell you we do not feck with anti alcohol laws) "values".

Bringing this back around to the thread topic, it would appear that the idea of this law, and similar ones bandied about in the US, is the flip side of the above. It is using the law to target a specific religious group.



Also, add buy "Chick - fil - A on a Sunday" to my list. I know it's not a legal law, but there is a natural law that decrees I will always crave it on Sundays.

The Chick fil A pain is real and I never understood the hype behind the Popeyes sandwich. I agree with your other statement. To be honest, I think the government can interfere in stopping an activity even if its religious but it has to be (in my opinion) proven that this impacts others in society. I actually didn't know the alcohol laws were religion based. My friend had a restaurant and alcohol licensing (and loopholes around it) are a confusing one and I always assumed it must have been some measure for more profits.