Israel-Palestine | Genocide in Gaza

moses said:
Well if your first question is real then I believe you don't know what Israel is supposed to do.

Hamas is not a Nation.

Maybe learn a bit more before talking as much.
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Ahh, so they're now protected for all their terrorist acts because they're not a nation, despite being elected representatives of a group of people that you would say deserve their own state. Obviously I know Hamas is not a nation....
 
JakeC said:
I've kept out of this thread for a few reasons, and I don't exactly have anything to add that hasn't been posted multiple times except for this.

I am sick and tired of people spending more time on finding out WHO bombed a hospital full of civilians so they can suit their narrative, instead of being fecking horrified and heartbroken for the innocent people who perished in one of the most inhumane and torturous ways imaginable.

The mainstream media, the establishment, and the western narrative are absolutely delighted that its looking like it could be potentially an errant rocket, as if it absolves Israel of previous war crimes.

Those of us on the left, on the other hand have battled against IDF propaganda, yet some were fecking salivating at the thought of having something else to be righteously angry about.

I've read some truly horrific stuff online by supposed irish leftists, and its really disheartened me.

Of course it matters who bombed the hospital, but it shouldn't change our utter heartbreak at the loss of human life.
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This is the appropriate sentiment to have imo. Although, we also have to remember that there is an information war taking place on social media where both sides are clamoring for righteousness. The stakes are therefore obviously high in that protests across the regions would spread quickly if the Israelis were behind the hospital attack and would be somewhat more muted if a Palestinian faction was behind it. Same applies to the beheaded babies story from a week ago, and several other flashpoints.
 
ATXRedDevil said:
Ahh, so they're now protected for all their terrorist acts because they're not a nation, despite being elected representatives of a group of people that you would say deserve their own state. Obviously I know Hamas is not a nation....
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They're certainly not protected from anything.
 
According to polling from 2021 on Israelis aged 16-18, 24% of secular, 42% of religious, and 66% of ultra-Orthodox youth expressed "hatred toward Arabs" and "support for stripping them of their citizenship." The population sizes are around 40-45-15 per this article from 2017. So all together you have 'hatred toward Arabs' in an enormous amount of Israeli youth.

If you want to tell yourself that these are just attitudes among settlers who represent nobody, you can. But it's simply not true.

Maybe for some people it feels comforting to go back to a quote from 1970 to boost their moral position. But we are in 2023. Decades have gone by. Things have changed.
 
Buster15 said:
How do you know all this stuff. Research I guess. But thank you. Very interesting.
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For the specific numbers I did some light searching yes. Those 5 countries (the 5 major victors of WW2, as they self defined at the time*) are the only one with a veto ever since the inception of the UN, as part of the security council (the highest committee in the institution). Israel has always been the thorniest issue for the last few decades because the US, ever since adopting it as a staunch ally, can block at will any strong UN intervention despite the existence of previous UN resolutions supposedly fixing a compromise border.

* As mentioned originally it was the Republic of China but for obvious reasons the ROC didn't have any leverage to claim to be the sole representative of China by 1971.
 
ATXRedDevil said:
Ahh, so they're now protected for all their terrorist acts because they're not a nation, despite being elected representatives of a group of people that you would say deserve their own state. Obviously I know Hamas is not a nation....
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Winning an election (without a majority) when fully half of Gaza's population was not yet born does not make them their "elected representatives". That's absurd, and clearly just an attempt to connect the Palestinian people with Hamas to such a degree where any violence against them is not worth remarking on.
 
Raoul said:
They're certainly not protected from anything.
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The reason is quite simple if you look at what is going on there. The world does send aid money to them regularly. None of the money received ever ends up with the people that need it the most and it more than often gets spent on rockets, weaponry and tunnel infrastructure. That isn't on Israel or any other government, that is solely on Hamas.
 
ATXRedDevil said:
I'm still just waiting for an actual constructive answer to what Israel is supposed to do in the face of such terrorism and stated goals of eradicating their people. It's a crap situation. I don't have one either.
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What to do might be a tough one - not bombing the shit out of a civilian population is what not to do though.
 
Utd heap said:
What to do might be a tough one - not bombing the shit out of a civilian population is what not to do though.
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I don't disagree. Problem is that won't stop the other side from doing the same. Easy to say they shouldn't retaliate when we're not the ones subject to terrorist attacks. Like I said, it's a crap situation and the Palestinians are in a terrible spot. You would think neighboring countries would help them, but it furthers their aims for Palestinians to be sacrificed for the cause.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
You think grunt soldiers on the ground carrying around TOP SECRET PLAN folders?
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I believe that those in leadership of the grunts would most certainly have said plans on them. Apparently each cell was independent from one another, some rocket surgeon leader could have outfitted all his men with them.
 
KingCantona87 said:
The reason is quite simple if you look at what is going on there. The world does send aid money to them regularly. None of the money received ever ends up with the people that need it the most and it more than often gets spent on rockets, weaponry and tunnel infrastructure. That isn't on Israel or any other government, that is solely on Hamas.
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And you know this how exactly? Hamas' arms and rockets come from Iran. They're not selling it to them considering they're using Hamas a proxy. So what makes you so sure that the aid the Palestinians are receiving aren't going to the people in need, and that they aren't already relying on it?
 
ATXRedDevil said:
I don't disagree. Problem is that won't stop the other side from doing the same. Easy to say they shouldn't retaliate when we're not the ones subject to terrorist attacks.
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"Not bombing the shit out of a civilian population" is not the same as "not retaliating."
 
ATXRedDevil said:
I don't disagree. Problem is that won't stop the other side from doing the same. Easy to say they shouldn't retaliate when we're not the ones subject to terrorist attacks. Like I said, it's a crap situation and the Palestinians are in a terrible spot. You would think neighboring countries would help them, but it furthers their aims for Palestinians to be sacrificed for the cause.
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Raining hellfire down on a densely populated city with no where for the inhabitants to run or hide isn't retaliation, and its cold-blooded revenge. Members of the IDF have flat out clarified that too.

This isn't about stopping Hamas. If that were the case the hardliners in Israel wouldn't be looking to bolster them, nor would they carry on with the status quo of building settlements, exercising apartheid in the west bank and generally oppressing the Palestinians, knowing full well these all lead to radicalisation and throwing Palestinians straight into the arms of militants.
 
ATXRedDevil said:
Ahh, so they're now protected for all their terrorist acts because they're not a nation, despite being elected representatives of a group of people that you would say deserve their own state. Obviously I know Hamas is not a nation....
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Who is protecting them?
 

I'll give you the first one in wisconsin, that's vile. None of the others fit, the same way it would be incorrect to claim that all israelis want the extermination of palestinians based on what Ben Gvir or a number of other ministers/MPs have said. Also none of them are about the extermination of jews, some are anti-Israel but none of them are anti jewish.

Now regarding students, half of Gaza schools aren't led by Hamas and none of the West Bank are, it's a stretch if not a lie to suggest that palestinian kids are taught what Hamas may want.
 
KingCantona87 said:
The reason is quite simple if you look at what is going on there. The world does send aid money to them regularly. None of the money received ever ends up with the people that need it the most and it more than often gets spent on rockets, weaponry and tunnel infrastructure. That isn't on Israel or any other government, that is solely on Hamas.
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Why lie like this, what are you trying to achieve?
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
"Not bombing the shit out of a civilian population" is not the same as "not retaliating."
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Fair. Should retaliate by paragliding in and gunning down innocent people and burning families alive. Much better.

Whan Hamas hides behind civilian infrastructure (which is well documented for years now), how do you target Hamas and guarantee no civilian casualties? It's basically saying that Israel is hamstrung becaues of Hamas' decision to use human shields.
 
ATXRedDevil said:
Ahh, so they're now protected for all their terrorist acts because they're not a nation, despite being elected representatives of a group of people that you would say deserve their own state. Obviously I know Hamas is not a nation....
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Hamas is labeled and treated as a terrorist organization, they receive zero protection.
 
Frank Grimes said:
SCUMBAG
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Meh he's just an old senile fool towing the usual bipartisan line regarding Israel. His sentiments haven't been a surprise at the least.

Only time a President in recent history actually dissented from the default Israeli absolution/appeasement stance was when Obama in one of his final acts decided to abstain on a UNSC resolution condemning Israeli settlements. Unprecedented but he was on his way out anyway.
 
ATXRedDevil said:
Fair. Should retaliate by paragliding in and gunning down innocent people and burning families alive. Much better.

Whan Hamas hides behind civilian infrastructure (which is well documented for years now), how do you target Hamas and guarantee no civilian casualties? It's basically saying that Israel is hamstrung becaues of Hamas' decision to use human shields.
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There is a massive difference between guaranteeing no civilian casualties and targetting civilian infrastructures while also stating that no gazan civilian is innocent.
 
ATXRedDevil said:
Fair. Should retaliate by paragliding in and gunning down innocent people and burning families alive. Much better.

Whan Hamas hides behind civilian infrastructure (which is well documented for years now), how do you target Hamas and guarantee no civilian casualties? It's basically saying that Israel is hamstrung becaues of Hamas' decision to use human shields.
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Are you expecting them to courteously and conveniently line up in an open field somewhere, where they all hold a giant bullseye? Hamas are native to Gaza - you know the open air prison where no one is essentially allowed to leave or enter. Where are you expecting them to be?
 
Kaos said:
Are you expecting them to courteously and conveniently line up in an open field somewhere, where they all hold a giant bullseye? Hamas are native to Gaza - you know the open air prison where no one is essentially allowed to leave or enter. Where are you expecting them to be?
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Not around schools and hospitals and mosques? Seems like there's plenty of other options.
 
ATXRedDevil said:
Hah. Someone needs to lay off the far-left propoganda.

Do you think Arabs were in those lands from the beginning of time? Who were the colonists then? The Muslims weren't the only ones to invade and conquer the land. Remember the Egyptians (Jewish slaves built the pyramids) and Romans?

Fascists murdered 6 million Jews 70ish years ago. Hamas has a stated goal of eradicating Jews from the planet. When the UK messed the region up, they proposed a two-state system for Israel and Palestine. Israel accepted, the latter rejected and together with other Arab countries chose war. They lost. Israel left Gaza in 2005. The next year the Palestinians elected a terrorist organization, who then removed the democratic process, that had clearly stated their hatred and desire to kill the Jews. If you lived next door to a terrorist group with a stated aim of eradicating you, how would you act?

I feel terrible for the innocent Palestinians. But they elected Hamas, the hatred is bred into them at a young age (see numerous videos online of Palestinian children playing "stab the Jew" or interviews of Palestinian kids at the UN SCHOOL in Gaza saying they would kill a Jew). Children. To quote an Israeli diplomat from the 70s, the moral difference between the two is that Jewish children are not taught to hate.

Israel has allowed millions of Palestinians in. 20% of the country or around 1.5 million people living in Israel are Palestinians. With full voting, democratic rights.

Hamas hides behind the innocent. Builds military op sites under churches, schools, hospitals, prevents withdrawal after the IDF warns of an impending attack (never seen Hamas give advanced warning, by the way). Hamas cares so much about their people that they dug up water pipes donated by the international community to make rockets out of them. Who needs clean water anyway?
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Israel funded Hamas to be a disruptive force in Palestine politics. Definite shades of the Taliban and the US in the 80s.
 
ATXRedDevil said:
Indeed. And an even bigger difference specifically targeting innocent civilians up close and personal, no?
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It's not really a distinction, palestinians are killed fairly regularly in the West Bank by settlers with the support of IDF or by IDF itself up close and personal.

Also you are not more righteous because you used long distance weapons.
 
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I'm just incredibly sad for the civilians. Can't get past feeling like they are trapped between two evils in hamas and the israeli government.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Israel funded Hamas to be a disruptive force in Palestine politics. Definite shades of the Taliban and the US in the 80s.
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Well, that backfired awfully quick then... https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-hamas

"Yassin established Hamas as the Brotherhood’s political arm in Gaza in December 1987, following the outbreak of the first intifada, a Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. At the time, Hamas’s purpose was to counter Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), another organization whose commitment to violently resisting Israel threatened to draw Palestinians’ support away from the Brotherhood. In 1988, Hamas published its charter, calling for the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic society in historic Palestine."
 
Kaos said:
Meh he's just an old senile fool towing the usual bipartisan line regarding Israel. His sentiments haven't been a surprise at the least.

Only time a President in recent history actually dissented from the default Israeli absolution/appeasement stance was when Obama in one of his final acts decided to abstain on a UNSC resolution condemning Israeli settlements. Unprecedented but he was on his way out anyway.
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Doesn't sound like much of a divergence if he abstained from condemnation of Israel, though Israelis have come to expect to be backed no matter what breaches/attrocities they commit I'm not surprised it was viewed that way.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
Are you talking about IDF or Hamas? So confusing.
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Not really. One is lobbing bombs and hasn't sent any individuals into the other's territory to kill with guns and other close range means. The other did. There's a difference between collateral damage and intentionally attacking innocents face to face. Doesn't make either death any less tragic, but it speaks to the state of mind of the perpetrator, which is always relevant when determining liability (legally, at least - hence the difference between premeditated murder and manslaughter, for example).
 
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