Israel-Palestine | Genocide in Gaza

marktan said:
It's impossible to destroy Hamas. Can you kill an ideology? Can you destroy someone who wants vengeance for their family members, before they've even picked up a gun? Can you destroy the idea of wanting to defend your land, wanting to reclaim the land of your ancestors?

That's long-term - in the short term how're they going to identify Hamas members? Some will have guns, fewer will have armour, most will just be ordinary citizens who'll go to live amongst their families. No one but the most crazy will go head on against a 300k+ fully militiriased army.

The only way to destroy Hamas is to kill every single Palestinian alive, because that's where the next iteration of Hamas will come from. Anyone that says 'destroy Hamas' knows this and is basically looking for a front excuse for genocide.

Israel will contend themselves with a land grab - but as always they're shooting themselves in the foot and being short sighted because the events over the next month or two will live long in the memories of Palestinians and the arab world for the next 30 years.
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They're not an ideology, they are an organization - just like Al-Qaeda and ISIS were, both of which are now decimated because the US and its allies committed themselves to doing it.

As for the other point, they won't need to ask each Palestinian if they're a card carrying member of Hamas. They will simply kill anyone who shoots at them and continue gobbling up territory as they go. Once they secure the northern districts, they will gradually move further south. Members of Hamas will probably fight from tunnels and through suicide bombers (a previous Hamas tactic), but they won't be able to win if they are outgunned from each of land, air, and sea, with nowhere to run since Gaza is cut off.
 
marktan said:
It's impossible to destroy Hamas. Can you kill an ideology? Can you destroy someone who wants vengeance for their family members, before they've even picked up a gun? Can you destroy the idea of wanting to defend your land, wanting to reclaim the land of your ancestors?

That's long-term - in the short term how're they going to identify Hamas members? Some will have guns, fewer will have armour, most will just be ordinary citizens who'll go to live amongst their families. No one but the most crazy will go head on against a 300k+ fully militiriased army.

The only way to destroy Hamas is to kill every single Palestinian alive, because that's where the next iteration of Hamas will come from. Anyone that says 'destroy Hamas' knows this and is basically looking for a front excuse for genocide.

Israel will contend themselves with a land grab - but as always they're shooting themselves in the foot and being short sighted because the events over the next month or two will live long in the memories of Palestinians and the arab world for the next 30 years.
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Sure. If they largely ethnically cleanse the area, nobody will remember the Palestinian cause in 200 years bar the history books. Perhaps the US could set aside a new Indian territory for them.
 
Amarsdd said:
Do IDF even have any experience of ground operations even at a lot smaller scale than this; obviously other than harrassing people in West Bank and sniping civilians?
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Someone might correct me on this but i think the last time IDF was involved in any large scale ground operations was back in 2006 in the Libanon war.
 
gfactor86 said:
Israel see this as a fight for their very survival. It is the only Jewish homeland with hostile neighbours wanting to destroy it.

I think there is a real possibility they will go for Iran.

I wouldn't even put it past them if to use a Nuke as a last resort
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????? Israel have shown no desire to escalate with Iran or even with their proxies. They have declined a first strike on hezbollah too. They don’t even have the capacity to “go for Iran” -its fantasy stuff. Their nuclear doctrine prohibits using them in this situation. Youd need a) the Samson doctrine (existential threat to Israel after conventional forces defeated) or b) the nihilistic option. To bring down the world after a 2nd holocaust.

The question is simply how they prosecute the ground war.
 
Amarsdd said:
Do IDF even have any experience of ground operations even at a lot smaller scale than this; obviously other than harrassing people in West Bank and sniping civilians?
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I mean they have 45 million mini city that they train in. It's pretty much what they've trained for, the eventual excuse to storm Gaza and steal more land.
 
If some people posted about the Israelis in the same manner some of you have been recently posting about the Palestinians there would be hell to pay....
 
gfactor86 said:
Will be interesting to see how attitudes change during the war. Especially if Hezbollah cause major damage to Israel.

you can expect to see celebratory rallies in a number of UK cities I should imagine. Will quickly get very hostile
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And who will be holding these rallies?
 
marktan said:
So what you're saying 'destroy Hamas' you really mean destroy Palestinians, but you're too afraid to say it. Also the Al Qaeda and ISIS comparison is absurd. About as similar as the Nazis or the Vietcong or Islamic Relief.



That's probably what Israel wants to do.. and they may succeed. But the last 100 years has shown a lot can change in a short amount of time. Technologically, politically, financialy, geopgrahically. What was strong today could very well be obsolete tomorrow.

To get to 200 years they'll first have to navigate the next 50 years, where I doubt any of their nearby arab neighbours will forget their conquests.. for the very reason that they'll all be fearing they could be next. With the US machine behind them, who's to stop them?
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They're going after Hamas members and/or other fighters who push back against the invasion (a vast majority of which will be Hamas and Islamic Jihad). Non combatant Palestinians have been given a 10 day notice that there will be fighting in those areas, so its hard to make the case the Israelis are going after them.
 
Raoul said:
They're going after Hamas members and/or other fighters who push back against the invasion (a vast majority of which will be Hamas and Islamic Jihad). Non combatant Palestinians have been given a 10 day notice that there will be fighting in those areas, so its hard to make the case the Israelis are going after them.
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What about the aid agencies of various stripes that have said the warnings are meaningless to many stuck in the North? Comments from IDF that they would be treated as Hamas collaborators and the increase in bombing is vile.
 
Raoul said:
They're going after Hamas members and/or other fighters who push back against the invasion (a vast majority of which will be Hamas and Islamic Jihad). Non combatant Palestinians have been given a 10 day notice that there will be fighting in those areas, so its hard to make the case the Israelis are going after them.
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Does somewhat feel like ethnic cleansing though. Making their lives such a misery that escape becomes imperative, then making sure theyll have nothing to want to return to. My reading is that’s been somewhat part of Israeli strategy since begin in 1977 and been accelerated especially in the last decade or so. Perhaps @2cents has something to share on this as I’m particularly bad at placing sources.
 
Superden said:
What about the aid agencies of various stripes that have said the warnings are meaningless to many stuck in the North? Comments from IDF that they would be treated as Hamas collaborators and the increase in bombing is vile.
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That's the tragedy of it. Some won't be able to move, and yet the war will take place either way as the Israelis are committed to going in.
 
Evil Isis like Hamas attack civilians in a village in Israel.
Oh..its actually Jewish settlers..

 
Israel is just a military outpost of the USA and would not be behaving like they do without the Americans support. They will never have peace if they don't recognise the rights of Palestinians to statehood. The settlers are as much or even worse a terrorist as Hamas. Settler violence has been going on for a long time without media coverage.
 
marktan said:
That's probably what Israel wants to do.. and they may succeed. But the last 100 years has shown a lot can change in a short amount of time. Technologically, politically, financialy, geopgrahically. What was strong today could very well be obsolete tomorrow.

To get to 200 years they'll first have to navigate the next 50 years, where I doubt any of their nearby arab neighbours will forget their conquests.. for the very reason that they'll all be fearing they could be next. With the US machine behind them, who's to stop them?
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Yea there was some rueful sarcasm there, hence reference to the US Indian territory. I think it’s been their plan for a while, wait i5 out, erode support and the amount people care, and just cleanse them by “expelling” them. It’s definitely the current terrorist tactic in the West Bank. I think that if anybody seriously wants to broker peace and make a 2 state solution then both sides need to hear some home truths which will be difficult. It’s not going back to the 1967 borders, Jerusalem needs a delicate deal, and Israel cannot keep empowering terrorist settlers and ministers. Palestinians need security from terror too. That said, it would need to be impressed on Palestinians that any militant action against their neighbours will likely result in invasion and I’m not sure anybody sees the majority of their leadership as honest brokers with enough control to prevent it, or to prevent a pa,edginess becoming another Iranian proxy. Either Israel or Hamas generally kill any hope.
 
marktan said:
Great, if they're emtpy give them back to the Palestinians, come to an agreement on borders for a two state solution and work on erasing the trauma from memory and enact a new reality? Or continue taking more Palestinian land and killing more people and ensure the trauma remains in memory and the cycle repeats for future generations.
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Why would we "give back" our lands? This isn't the West Bank. This is the south of Israel. If they attacked Tel Aviv and pepople fled, should we have given them Tel Aviv?
 
Giggsyking said:
So by your logic, Hamas did nothing wrong on the 7th of October. Because the Israeli civilians did elect their government and the IDF have the broad support from them till kill, occupy, ethnic cleans?
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Not sure who is embarrassing himself here.
You are equating the elected government of a democratic state with Hamas which most western countries classify as a terrorist organisation.
 
Frosty said:
Um, yes they were.

The Associated Press reported the Dresden attacks as 'terror bombing' at the time.

In press conferences reporters criticised the British Air Commodore for targeting civilians.

Questions were asked of the Government in the House of Commons.

Questions were also asked of the UK by the Roosevelt Administration.

All of which led Churchill at the end of March 1945 to write to the Chief of the Air Staff:

"It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land ... The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforward be more strictly studied in our own interests than that of the enemy."
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https://www.azquotes.com/author/41529-Sir_Arthur_Harris_1st_Baronet

Here is summary of bomber Harris most famous quotes.
He deliberately targeted German inner cities, not for destroying military targets but for terror.

At the end Churchill rewarded him with medals and he was even knighted.
 
B. Munich said:
Not sure who is embarrassing himself here.
You are equating the elected government of a democratic state with Hamas which most western countries classify as a terrorist organisation.
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You were arguing that because Hamas was democratically elected, then the people that elected them are to be held accountable. Now you're saying that same logic doesn't apply to Israel?

For what it's worth, the people of Israel should not be held accountable for the actions of their government. Much like Palestinians shouldn't be held accountable for theirs. Especially given that the people of Gaza haven't had a say in who governs them in nearly 20 years.
 
E-mal said:
Israel is just a military outpost of the USA and would not be behaving like they do without the Americans support.
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Without the support of the US Israel wouldn't exit. Their neighbors would have eradicated them for a long time.


E-mal said:
The settlers are as much or even worse a terrorist as Hamas.
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While I don't condone their actions and consider this whole settlement program an huge mistake, what you are saying is just outrageous. Especially in the context of the recent October 7th attacks.

Where do settlers kill hundreds of young people partying, burn and behead babies, rape women next to their killed husbands or bfs?
 
Bert_ said:
You were arguing that because Hamas was democratically elected, then the people that elected them are to be held accountable.
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My point was Gazans voted for am organisation which has the extermination of the State Israel written in their charter since the beginning. That's a huge difference to the government of Israel which made many mistakes but doesn't want the extermination of all Palestinians.

Again, the Hamas must have strong support within Gaza. Otherwise they couldn't clinge to power so long, build a vast tunnel system underneath the city, contrive, construct thousands and thousands of missiles that there fire in densely populated urban area on Israel. It's
 
Superden said:
Evil Isis like Hamas attack civilians in a village in Israel.
Oh..its actually Jewish settlers..

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Where are the burning houses, where are the gunshots in the video? All I see date some people walking on the street in the night.
 
B. Munich said:
Not sure who is embarrassing himself here.
You are equating the elected government of a democratic state with Hamas which most western countries classify as a terrorist organisation.
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So was apartheid South Africa a democracy and the ANC classified as a terrorist organization by most western countries. Your point?
 
B. Munich said:
Without the support of the US Israel wouldn't exit. Their neighbors would have eradicated them for a long time.



While I don't condone their actions and consider this whole settlement program an huge mistake, what you are saying is just outrageous. Especially in the context of the recent October 7th attacks.

Where do settlers kill hundreds of young people partying, burn and behead babies, rape women next to their killed husbands or bfs?
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https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023...d-by-israeli-forces-in-the-occupied-west-bank
https://www.timesofisrael.com/endin...cer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-691641
Old but in the context valid
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safsaf_massacre
 
From the BBC:


Palestinian officials say four more people killed in West Bank by Israeli forces
The Palestinian health ministry says Israeli forces have killed four more Palestinians in the West Bank.

As we've been reporting, the Israeli military said overnight it had attacked a "terrorist compound" in Jenin in the West Bank, which allegedly included a Hamas cell within a mosque.

The most recent fatalities bring the number of Palestinians killed since the 7 October - when Hamas attacked southern Israel - to 89 people, according to the update from the Palestinian health ministry.
 
B. Munich said:
My point was Gazans voted for am organisation which has the extermination of the State Israel written in their charter since the beginning. That's a huge difference to the government of Israel which made many mistakes but doesn't want the extermination of all Palestinians.

Again, the Hamas must have strong support within Gaza. Otherwise they couldn't clinge to power so long, build a vast tunnel system underneath the city, contrive, construct thousands and thousands of missiles that there fire in densely populated urban area on Israel. It's
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When Hamas "won" that election (with a minority of the popular vote) they did so as the "Change and Reform" platform. It was still Hamas, just rebranded. They also dropped the extermination of Israel from their manifesto as it was considered a vote loser. There was also the background of corruption under Fatah, the previous ruling party, which they managed to exploit to gain votes.

As for Hamas popular support within Gaza 17 years later. We don't know until/if there is ever another free and fair election. If you can control an area, you don't need the support of the people though. It helps but isn't necessary if you have enough force to quell dissent. Just look at Iran as an example.
 
E-mal said:
The settlers are as much or even worse a terrorist as Hamas.
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I am on record here as despising the settlers, and they are a big part of the problem that we need to deal with if there is to be a just peace.

But to say they're as bad as Hamas is fecking ridiculous. Only yesterday, this:

 
Raoul said:
They're going after Hamas members and/or other fighters who push back against the invasion (a vast majority of which will be Hamas and Islamic Jihad). Non combatant Palestinians have been given a 10 day notice that there will be fighting in those areas, so its hard to make the case the Israelis are going after them.
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But that doesn't make sense. How are Israel going to destroy Hamas if their members decide not to fight back and instead retreat in order to attack Israel in the future? Do Israel have the identities of all Hamas members?
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Very true, glad we agree.
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Can't tell if serious.

As bad as the 'west' is, wait til you hear about some of the leaders in the Middle East! And if you happen to be born into the wrong religion.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Yea I'm sure people in Gaza right now are thinking 'I hope no one thinks the West are terrorists but rather they are the bastions of human rights'.
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Weird statement. But it’s easy to say West = bad and Hamas/ISIS = good when you’re sat there benefitting from Western values, protected by Western structures. You wouldn’t get the same privilege under their rule.
 
Zen86 said:
Weird statement. But it’s easy to say West = bad and Hamas/ISIS = good when you’re sat there benefitting from Western values, protected by Western structures. You wouldn’t get the same privilege under their rule.
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First off. I've lived most of my life in Nigeria, South Africa and Pakistan. So pretty much not protected by any Western structures but ironically in countries that have suffered because of colonialism/wars from Western countries. And these western countries, well not Germany per say, have been built on the backs of other countries that have suffered lose of wealth because of it. The image success of western countries is to make their land perfect while actively destabilizing and making other countries worse, so on the face of it they are fantastic countries rich with human rights, but at the same time they try to squash human rights and prop up dictators in other countries that suit their political aims.

Secondly, I never said Hamas/ISIS is good. Both can be bad, you know that right?
 
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