Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[B. Munich]

So by your logic, Hamas did nothing wrong on the 7th of October. Because the Israeli civilians did elect their government and the IDF have the broad support from them till kill, occupy, ethnic cleans?

Not sure who is embarrassing himself here.
You are equating the elected government of a democratic state with Hamas which most western countries classify as a terrorist organisation.

 

[B. Munich]

Um, yes they were.

The Associated Press reported the Dresden attacks as 'terror bombing' at the time.

In press conferences reporters criticised the British Air Commodore for targeting civilians.

Questions were asked of the Government in the House of Commons.

Questions were also asked of the UK by the Roosevelt Administration.

All of which led Churchill at the end of March 1945 to write to the Chief of the Air Staff:

"It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land ... The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforward be more strictly studied in our own interests than that of the enemy."

https://www.azquotes.com/author/41529-Sir_Arthur_Harris_1st_Baronet

Here is summary of bomber Harris most famous quotes.
He deliberately targeted German inner cities, not for destroying military targets but for terror.

At the end Churchill rewarded him with medals and he was even knighted.

 

[MDFC Manager]

At the end Churchill rewarded him with medals and he was even knighted.

The world has rarely seen evil cnuts of the level of Churchill.

 

[Bert_]

Not sure who is embarrassing himself here.
You are equating the elected government of a democratic state with Hamas which most western countries classify as a terrorist organisation.

You were arguing that because Hamas was democratically elected, then the people that elected them are to be held accountable. Now you're saying that same logic doesn't apply to Israel?

For what it's worth, the people of Israel should not be held accountable for the actions of their government. Much like Palestinians shouldn't be held accountable for theirs. Especially given that the people of Gaza haven't had a say in who governs them in nearly 20 years.

 

[B. Munich]

Israel is just a military outpost of the USA and would not be behaving like they do without the Americans support.

Without the support of the US Israel wouldn't exit. Their neighbors would have eradicated them for a long time.

The settlers are as much or even worse a terrorist as Hamas.

While I don't condone their actions and consider this whole settlement program an huge mistake, what you are saying is just outrageous. Especially in the context of the recent October 7th attacks.

Where do settlers kill hundreds of young people partying, burn and behead babies, rape women next to their killed husbands or bfs?

 

[B. Munich]

You were arguing that because Hamas was democratically elected, then the people that elected them are to be held accountable.

My point was Gazans voted for am organisation which has the extermination of the State Israel written in their charter since the beginning. That's a huge difference to the government of Israel which made many mistakes but doesn't want the extermination of all Palestinians.

Again, the Hamas must have strong support within Gaza. Otherwise they couldn't clinge to power so long, build a vast tunnel system underneath the city, contrive, construct thousands and thousands of missiles that there fire in densely populated urban area on Israel. It's

 

[B. Munich]

Evil Isis like Hamas attack civilians in a village in Israel.
Oh..its actually Jewish settlers..

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Where are the burning houses, where are the gunshots in the video? All I see date some people walking on the street in the night.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Not sure who is embarrassing himself here.
You are equating the elected government of a democratic state with Hamas which most western countries classify as a terrorist organisation.

So was apartheid South Africa a democracy and the ANC classified as a terrorist organization by most western countries. Your point?

 

[christy87]

Without the support of the US Israel wouldn't exit. Their neighbors would have eradicated them for a long time.



While I don't condone their actions and consider this whole settlement program an huge mistake, what you are saying is just outrageous. Especially in the context of the recent October 7th attacks.

Where do settlers kill hundreds of young people partying, burn and behead babies, rape women next to their killed husbands or bfs?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023...d-by-israeli-forces-in-the-occupied-west-bank
https://www.timesofisrael.com/endin...cer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-691641
Old but in the context valid
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safsaf_massacre

 

[Badunk]

From the BBC:


Palestinian officials say four more people killed in West Bank by Israeli forces
The Palestinian health ministry says Israeli forces have killed four more Palestinians in the West Bank.

As we've been reporting, the Israeli military said overnight it had attacked a "terrorist compound" in Jenin in the West Bank, which allegedly included a Hamas cell within a mosque.

The most recent fatalities bring the number of Palestinians killed since the 7 October - when Hamas attacked southern Israel - to 89 people, according to the update from the Palestinian health ministry.

 

[Bert_]

My point was Gazans voted for am organisation which has the extermination of the State Israel written in their charter since the beginning. That's a huge difference to the government of Israel which made many mistakes but doesn't want the extermination of all Palestinians.

Again, the Hamas must have strong support within Gaza. Otherwise they couldn't clinge to power so long, build a vast tunnel system underneath the city, contrive, construct thousands and thousands of missiles that there fire in densely populated urban area on Israel. It's

When Hamas "won" that election (with a minority of the popular vote) they did so as the "Change and Reform" platform. It was still Hamas, just rebranded. They also dropped the extermination of Israel from their manifesto as it was considered a vote loser. There was also the background of corruption under Fatah, the previous ruling party, which they managed to exploit to gain votes.

As for Hamas popular support within Gaza 17 years later. We don't know until/if there is ever another free and fair election. If you can control an area, you don't need the support of the people though. It helps but isn't necessary if you have enough force to quell dissent. Just look at Iran as an example.

 

[hasanejaz88]

The West are the real terrorists. We should be supporting freedom fighters like Hamas and ISIS.

Very true, glad we agree.

 

[Drizzle]

The settlers are as much or even worse a terrorist as Hamas.

I am on record here as despising the settlers, and they are a big part of the problem that we need to deal with if there is to be a just peace.

But to say they're as bad as Hamas is fecking ridiculous. Only yesterday, this:

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[Mogget]

They're going after Hamas members and/or other fighters who push back against the invasion (a vast majority of which will be Hamas and Islamic Jihad). Non combatant Palestinians have been given a 10 day notice that there will be fighting in those areas, so its hard to make the case the Israelis are going after them.

But that doesn't make sense. How are Israel going to destroy Hamas if their members decide not to fight back and instead retreat in order to attack Israel in the future? Do Israel have the identities of all Hamas members?

 

[Beachryan]

Very true, glad we agree.

Can't tell if serious.

As bad as the 'west' is, wait til you hear about some of the leaders in the Middle East! And if you happen to be born into the wrong religion.

 

[Zen86]

Very true, glad we agree.

It’s easy when you lead a sheltered life.

 

[hasanejaz88]

It’s easy when you lead a sheltered life.

Yea I'm sure people in Gaza right now are thinking 'I hope no one thinks the West are terrorists but rather they are the bastions of human rights'.

 

[adexkola]

Yea I'm sure people in Gaza right now are thinking 'I hope no one thinks the West are terrorists but rather they are the bastions of human rights'.

They need to be less sheltered.

Oh wait, given the current aerial bombardment...

 

[Raven]

This is excellently said.

 

[MDFC Manager]

It’s easy when you lead a sheltered life.

Ironic given the current circumstances.

 

[Zen86]

Yea I'm sure people in Gaza right now are thinking 'I hope no one thinks the West are terrorists but rather they are the bastions of human rights'.

Weird statement. But it’s easy to say West = bad and Hamas/ISIS = good when you’re sat there benefitting from Western values, protected by Western structures. You wouldn’t get the same privilege under their rule.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Weird statement. But it’s easy to say West = bad and Hamas/ISIS = good when you’re sat there benefitting from Western values, protected by Western structures. You wouldn’t get the same privilege under their rule.

First off. I've lived most of my life in Nigeria, South Africa and Pakistan. So pretty much not protected by any Western structures but ironically in countries that have suffered because of colonialism/wars from Western countries. And these western countries, well not Germany per say, have been built on the backs of other countries that have suffered lose of wealth because of it. The image success of western countries is to make their land perfect while actively destabilizing and making other countries worse, so on the face of it they are fantastic countries rich with human rights, but at the same time they try to squash human rights and prop up dictators in other countries that suit their political aims.

Secondly, I never said Hamas/ISIS is good. Both can be bad, you know that right?

 

[Zen86]

First off. I've lived most of my life in Nigeria, South Africa and Pakistan. So pretty much not protected by any Western structures but ironically in countries that have suffered because of colonialism/wars from Western countries. And these western countries, well not Germany per say, have been built on the backs of other countries that have suffered lose of wealth because of it. The image success of western countries is to make their land perfect while actively destabilizing and making other countries worse, so on the face of it they are fantastic countries rich with human rights, but at the same time they try to squash human rights and prop up dictators in other countries that suit their political aims.

Secondly, I never said Hamas/ISIS is good. Both can be bad, you know that right?

Well, you certainly implied it.

The West are the real terrorists. We should be supporting freedom fighters like Hamas and ISIS.

Very true, glad we agree.

 

[Giggsyking]

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[dinostar77]

Yes in 2006, just a year after Israel gave back the control over Gaza to the Palestinians, a significant majority (57%) voted for Hamas. A terrorist organisation that has the destruction of the State Israel written in their Convenant.
"The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[3] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel."


Hamas doesn't care about democracy or elections. Though, this doesn't say anything about the support of Hamas in Gaza. Their support could be even higher today. Nobody knows as there were no more elections after 2006.

I can argue that without broad support, Hamas wouldn't be able to cling to power for so many years, build the sophisticated tunnel system, construct and fire thousands of missiles on Israel and prepare these atrocious attacks on October 7th.

I wrote yesterday that the Gazans aren't innocent due to voting and ongoing support of the terrorist organisation Hamas. I have been heavily criticized and even called a train wreck and psychopath.

The German population had been held responsible for the atrocities during WW2, AND RIGHTFULLY SO. The term collective guilt was created by the victors because it had been concluded the Nazis would have never been able to do what they did without broad support from the German population.

Now you tell me what's the difference to Gazans and their support of Hamas. Where do the double standards come from?

And again, to make it very clear. I'm not looking for the acquittal of guilt of Germans for the atrocities during WW2. Not at all!
But I'm asking you why do many here consider the Palestinians in Gaza as innocent while Germans were guilty.

reported this post. right wing, racist troll.

 

[B. Munich]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023...d-by-israeli-forces-in-the-occupied-west-bank
https://www.timesofisrael.com/endin...cer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-691641
Old but in the context valid
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safsaf_massacre

Nobody claims Israel and the IDF aren't guilty of crimes too. However, to put both sides, Israel and Hamas, on the same level is just totally crazy.

The link about the IDF soldier who raped a Palestinian woman is actually a good example about the difference of Israel and Hamas.

One is a crime and Israel punished it. These things happen also in the West.
Hamas instead ordering the mass raping of Jewish women and burning their babies is genocide. Instead of punishing the rapists and murderer, they cheering their actions on the streets.

If you don't see the difference here, then no arguments will ever convince you.

 

[Amir]

Are they your lands? Aren't land outside of Gaza originally land that was intended for the Palestinians in the 1948 plan? Isn't that what all this fighting is about?

A smarter person than those in charge would give some of those lands to the Palestinians and say, hey, if you're peaceful they're yours, if you attack us we'll take them back. Make a friend instead of an enemy. But obviously I can understand why you or most Israelis wouldn't want that, but the price is this will all be a repeating cycle.

At some point Israel needs to address Palestinian grievances (as the side with all the power), or accept violence every few years. Short of slaughtering all the Palestinians of course. Their plan is what, take half of Gaza.. and then what? Pretend they don't exist? Some plan.

I will not pretend to know the history of every square inch of land. But I do know this: What you are suggesting would be a disaster to Israel and ensure that what happened on October 7 will be repeated. You basically want to us tell Hamas: You win. You massacred many Israelis, and you get to keep the lands those people lived in. So Hamas will learn that he should attack us again for further gains. The idea that we'll then just take those lands back will mean sacrificing more Israeli lives for this little experiment of yours, which is probably very comfortable to conduct from where are you sitting at. It will also send a horrible message to all our enemies, including Iran and Hezbollah.

Hamas are vile animals who want to kill Israelis and destroy Israel. If you are suggesting we negotiate with them, then you are naive. If you think that after what happened on October 7 we can continue our lives normally with Hamas right accross the border - even with a peace deal and a two-state solution - then you are naive.

I do believe that the two-state solution is the only real solution, I do believe Israel needs to show flexibility and settle. But I don't think either side has the leaders for it right now. And I certainly KNOW that we can't and won't ever see Hamas as part of it. Especially after October 7.

 

[B. Munich]

So was apartheid South Africa a democracy and the ANC classified as a terrorist organization by most western countries. Your point?

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

For sure the apartheid state wasn't s democracy as the huge majority of black people weren't allowed to vote.

I know much too little about the ANC to comment. Maybe other can do.

 

[B. Munich]

But that doesn't make sense. How are Israel going to destroy Hamas if their members decide not to fight back and instead retreat in order to attack Israel in the future? Do Israel have the identities of all Hamas members?

So what do suggest? Israel doing nothing, just suck it up and wait until Hamas strikes again and maybe even is killing more?

 

[dinostar77]

Powerful stuff. What you would expect to come from a world leading country's leadership. But it wont. ever.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Nobody claims Israel and the IDF aren't guilty of crimes too. However, to put both sides, Israel and Hamas, on the same level is just totally crazy.

The link about the IDF soldier who raped a Palestinian woman is actually a good example about the difference of Israel and Hamas.

One is a crime and Israel punished it.

The IDF murdered a journalist last year, denied it for months (while blaming Palestinians), and then admitted they did and said no one's getting punished for it.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

These arguments like "Israel really cares about civilians" or whatever are only going to work on people who know literally knowing about this subject. It should be clear from reading 4-5 pages of this thread that the majority of posters know more than "literally nothing", so why bother. It's not going to work.

 

[B. Munich]

Are they your lands? Aren't land outside of Gaza originally land that was intended for the Palestinians in the 1948 plan? Isn't that what all this fighting is about?

Who didn't agree to the UN resolution 181 in 1947 and started a war to recoup all territories?
The Palestinians should have accepted the ruling back then and all, especially the Palestinians themselves, would have and live a much better life today.

 

[B. Munich]

The IDF murdered a journalist last year, denied it months, and then admitted they did and said no one's getting punished for it.

Did they kill him in purpose or per accident?
Does this justifies the organized mass raping and mass murder of over thousands of Israeli civilians?
Again, you are comparing apple and oranges here.

 

[Giggsyking]

Not sure who is embarrassing himself here.
You are equating the elected government of a democratic state with Hamas which most western countries classify as a terrorist organisation.

Did you even understand my analogy? just go to sleep , your comments here has been nothing but a disgrace.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The Israel Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories – announced on Wednesday that it is cutting ties with the IDF over its alleged whitewashing of complaints it receives from the NGO. In 2014, B’Tselem cut ties with the army regarding alleged war crimes in Gaza, ceasing to send it Palestinians’ complaints. Nevertheless, until now it has continued sending the army complaints about alleged crimes in the West Bank.

In a report entitled The Occupation’s Fig Leaf, B’Tselem explains that its decision came after a “protracted period of reflection in the organization, based on its experience in hundreds of complaints it submitted to the military law enforcement system and dozens of Military Police Investigations Unit (MPIU) files it has examined.” This experience has led B’Tselem to the “recognition that there is no longer any point in pursuing justice and defending human rights by working with a system whose real function is measured by its ability to continue to successfully cover up unlawful acts and protect perpetrators.”

According to the statistics, there were only 25 indictments out of 739 complaints the organization has submitted to the army.

https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/BTselem-cuts-ties-with-IDF-over-whitewashing-454951

This is the army you're trying to pass off as righteous.

 

[Giggsyking]

Did they kill him in purpose or per accident?
Does this justifies the organized mass raping and mass murder of over thousands of Israeli civilians?
Again, you are comparing apple and oranges here.

Her. And yes on purpose.

Seriously man, you seem very uninformed about the subject and you are posting here only for one purpose and is obvious to everybody here.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Did they kill him in purpose or per accident?

They killed her on purpose.

 

[dinostar77]

I will not pretend to know the history of every square inch of land. But I do know this: What you are suggesting would be a disaster to Israel and ensure that what happened on October 7 will be repeated. You basically want to us tell Hamas: You win. You massacred many Israelis, and you get to keep the lands those people lived in. So Hamas will learn that he should attack us again for further gains. The idea that we'll then just take those lands back will mean sacrificing more Israeli lives for this little experiment of yours, which is probably very comfortable to conduct from where are you sitting at. It will also send a horrible message to all our enemies, including Iran and Hezbollah.

Hamas are vile animals who want to kill Israelis and destroy Israel. If you are suggesting we negotiate with them, then you are naive. If you think that after what happened on October 7 we can continue our lives normally with Hamas right accross the border - even with a peace deal and a two-state solution - then you are naive.

I do believe that the two-state solution is the only real solution, I do believe Israel needs to show flexibility and settle. But I don't think either side has the leaders for it right now. And I certainly KNOW that we can't and won't ever see Hamas as part of it. Especially after October 7.

the two state solution is the only solution. i dont think anyone, the general public or world leaders see hamas being part of it. We all know hamas are a proxy for iran. Instead of iran being punished we are seeing innocent palestianians suffer collective punishment.

We know the hostages need to be released, but even then israel will continue its campaign of collective punishement on Gaza. Apparently israel has briefed US officials that this war could go on for 10 years. If hamas is this difficult to eradicate, then go cut the head off the snake.

Israel say they want to destroy hamas. Why arent israel going after the leadership of hamas who are living comfortable lives in qatar?

As an aside, would it be geographically possible with a two state solution, to have a dmz ala north korea / south korea?

Also i take it with a two state solution, jerusulum would fall under 'international' control rather than either state controlling it?

 

[Giggsyking]

You were arguing that because Hamas was democratically elected, then the people that elected them are to be held accountable. Now you're saying that same logic doesn't apply to Israel?

For what it's worth, the people of Israel should not be held accountable for the actions of their government. Much like Palestinians shouldn't be held accountable for theirs. Especially given that the people of Gaza haven't had a say in who governs them in nearly 20 years.

He did not even understand my analogy about elections. But it is useless discussion if he does not understand.