Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[VorZakone]

“People are saying, we cannot live on the northern border, with Hezbollah less than 100 metres from us and that can cross the line in a few minutes and slaughter us.”

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[E-mal]

and then when the Western Allies carpet bombed Dresden and other German cities to rid them of Nazis, they weren't criticised. We didn't have 200k pro-Nazi rallies in every city.
Different times of course. But the principles are the same in war. Civilians die, that's what makes it so terrible

Another poor post from this account, the false equivalence is just staggering

 

[Zlatattack]

They should not have voted for Hamas. Israel has a right to defend itself. What do you expect them to do in this situation.

I think I’ve covered all the talking points there

Never mind - I missed the sarcasm.

 

[Carolina Red]

Why shouldn't they vote for Hamas? They're territory is occupied - Hamas has a militant wing fighting that occupation. It's legal according to international law to militarily resist occupation.

Hamas recognises the right for Israel to exist. People like you called Mandela a terrorist too.

He was being sarcastic. The last line makes that blatantly obvious.

 

[Frosty]

Yes in 2006, just a year after Israel gave back the control over Gaza to the Palestinians, a significant majority (57%) voted for Hamas. A terrorist organisation that has the destruction of the State Israel written in their Convenant.
"The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[3] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel."


Hamas doesn't care about democracy or elections. Though, this doesn't say anything about the support of Hamas in Gaza. Their support could be even higher today. Nobody knows as there were no more elections after 2006.

I can argue that without broad support, Hamas wouldn't be able to cling to power for so many years, build the sophisticated tunnel system, construct and fire thousands of missiles on Israel and prepare these atrocious attacks on October 7th.

I wrote yesterday that the Gazans aren't innocent due to voting and ongoing support of the terrorist organisation Hamas. I have been heavily criticized and even called a train wreck and psychopath.

The German population had been held responsible for the atrocities during WW2, AND RIGHTFULLY SO. The term collective guilt was created by the victors because it had been concluded the Nazis would have never been able to do what they did without broad support from the German population.

Now you tell me what's the difference to Gazans and their support of Hamas. Where do the double standards come from?

And again, to make it very clear. I'm not looking for the acquittal of guilt of Germans for the atrocities during WW2. Not at all!
But I'm asking you why do many here consider the Palestinians in Gaza as innocent while Germans were guilty.

Dude, the West German population was forgiven in fairly short order due to the threat from the USSR. The Western Allies (and Soviets) were also very happy to quickly rehabilitate and relocate actual Nazis who were involved in murder and slave labour if they proved useful to the Cold War cause.

 

[E-mal]

20% of

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everyday a UK media outlet has to come out and apologise for misleading the public.

If I were the Ambassador, I'd suite their ass and donate that money to Charity in Gaza. Just finding ways to dehumanize every Palestinian

 

[VorZakone]

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[Zlatattack]

He was being sarcastic. The last line makes that blatantly obvious.

Doh.

 

[Frosty]

and then when the Western Allies carpet bombed Dresden and other German cities to rid them of Nazis, they weren't criticised. We didn't have 200k pro-Nazi rallies in every city.
Different times of course. But the principles are the same in war. Civilians die, that's what makes it so terrible

Um, yes they were.

The Associated Press reported the Dresden attacks as 'terror bombing' at the time.

In press conferences reporters criticised the British Air Commodore for targeting civilians.

Questions were asked of the Government in the House of Commons.

Questions were also asked of the UK by the Roosevelt Administration.

All of which led Churchill at the end of March 1945 to write to the Chief of the Air Staff:

"It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land ... The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforward be more strictly studied in our own interests than that of the enemy."

 

[Giggsyking]

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You have to laugh at this point.

 

[Raoul]

Do you think potentially Israel could be being dragged into a wider ground conflict with Hamas/Hizbollah and other Iranian proxies?

The Israelis are already in conflict with both given the rise in recent attacks in northern Israel / southern Lebanon. If they start a full on ground war in Gaza, I would imagine Hezbollah would ramp up attacks. As for a broader conflict, I think that would affect the US more than anyone since an attack from Hezbollah, further attacks from Yemen (such as the intercepted missiles by a US ship the other day) or perhaps something from Iran or Syria (there are presently US troops in both Iraq and Syria), would probably draw the US into a broader conflict.

We are at an incredibly precarious and sensitive moment that transcends Israel and Palestine. It has a whiff of 1914 to it.

 

[gfactor86]

I understand your point, but looking at the crisis as snapshot from two weeks ago would never solve the problem. The Israelis created the largest prison ever and thought it had never blow up in their face. Except they are ready to murder 2.3 million people, these tactics will never bring peace. They are fighting people who have nothing to loose. The only way to expect peace from your enemy is to give him something he is in danger of losing.

Shocking post. "Ready to murder 2.3m people"

20% of

If I were the Ambassador, I'd suite their ass and donate that money to Charity in Gaza. Just finding ways to dehumanize every Palestinian

they'd just pocket the money. Like Arafat did

 

[Giggsyking]

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here is an example.

 

[Amarsdd]

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Do IDF even have any experience of ground operations even at a lot smaller scale than this; obviously other than harrassing people in West Bank and sniping civilians?

 

[Giggsyking]

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[Raoul]

Do IDF even have any experience of ground operations even at a lot smaller scale than this; obviously other than harrassing people in West Bank and sniping civilians?

Neither side do since they haven't faced one another in such extreme circumstances in generations. This is going to be a full on bloody war with significant casualties on both sides.

 

[Cloud7]

He was being sarcastic. The last line makes that blatantly obvious.

Thanks for explaining that twice mate I think I am gonna leave off the sarcasm in any posts in this thread going forward

 

[Giggsyking]

Do IDF even have any experience of ground operations even at a lot smaller scale than this; obviously other than harrassing people in West Bank and sniping civilians?

most recently is their failure in Lebanon 2006.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

Nor do Hamas, which is why we are in this situation. The power dynamic between the two is disproportionately on the Israeli side, so any attempt by Hamas to do what they did two weeks ago could end result in bringing Israelis into a war mindset where they feel they have to once and for all get rid of Hamas.

To paraphrase the mindset of a famous Japanese admiral in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor, the thing Hamas should fear is they have only awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve. I really wonder if the people in the top echelons of Hamas are even thinking about that prospect right now with every day that comes forward.

Do IDF even have any experience of ground operations even at a lot smaller scale than this; obviously other than harrassing people in West Bank and sniping civilians?

Well, yes. See the 2006 Lebanon War.

 

[R'hllor]

People love to play dumb with whole reaction line

 

[owlo]

Neither side do since they haven't faced one another in such extreme circumstances in generations. This is going to be a full on bloody war with significant casualties on both sides.

A lot depends on how they fight, which we just don’t know. We’re seeing a level of brutality from Israel we’ve not seen before. If it’s a fires based assault the calculus significantly shifts.

 

[gfactor86]

A lot depends on how they fight, which we just don’t know. We’re seeing a level of brutality from Israel we’ve not seen before. If it’s a fires based assault the calculus significantly shifts.

Israel see this as a fight for their very survival. It is the only Jewish homeland with hostile neighbours wanting to destroy it.

I think there is a real possibility they will go for Iran.

I wouldn't even put it past them if to use a Nuke as a last resort

 

[Raoul]

It's impossible to destroy Hamas. Can you kill an ideology? Can you destroy someone who wants vengeance for their family members, before they've even picked up a gun? Can you destroy the idea of wanting to defend your land, wanting to reclaim the land of your ancestors?

That's long-term - in the short term how're they going to identify Hamas members? Some will have guns, fewer will have armour, most will just be ordinary citizens who'll go to live amongst their families. No one but the most crazy will go head on against a 300k+ fully militiriased army.

The only way to destroy Hamas is to kill every single Palestinian alive, because that's where the next iteration of Hamas will come from. Anyone that says 'destroy Hamas' knows this and is basically looking for a front excuse for genocide.

Israel will contend themselves with a land grab - but as always they're shooting themselves in the foot and being short sighted because the events over the next month or two will live long in the memories of Palestinians and the arab world for the next 30 years.

They're not an ideology, they are an organization - just like Al-Qaeda and ISIS were, both of which are now decimated because the US and its allies committed themselves to doing it.

As for the other point, they won't need to ask each Palestinian if they're a card carrying member of Hamas. They will simply kill anyone who shoots at them and continue gobbling up territory as they go. Once they secure the northern districts, they will gradually move further south. Members of Hamas will probably fight from tunnels and through suicide bombers (a previous Hamas tactic), but they won't be able to win if they are outgunned from each of land, air, and sea, with nowhere to run since Gaza is cut off.

 

[owlo]

It's impossible to destroy Hamas. Can you kill an ideology? Can you destroy someone who wants vengeance for their family members, before they've even picked up a gun? Can you destroy the idea of wanting to defend your land, wanting to reclaim the land of your ancestors?

That's long-term - in the short term how're they going to identify Hamas members? Some will have guns, fewer will have armour, most will just be ordinary citizens who'll go to live amongst their families. No one but the most crazy will go head on against a 300k+ fully militiriased army.

The only way to destroy Hamas is to kill every single Palestinian alive, because that's where the next iteration of Hamas will come from. Anyone that says 'destroy Hamas' knows this and is basically looking for a front excuse for genocide.

Israel will contend themselves with a land grab - but as always they're shooting themselves in the foot and being short sighted because the events over the next month or two will live long in the memories of Palestinians and the arab world for the next 30 years.

Sure. If they largely ethnically cleanse the area, nobody will remember the Palestinian cause in 200 years bar the history books. Perhaps the US could set aside a new Indian territory for them.

 

[the hea]

Do IDF even have any experience of ground operations even at a lot smaller scale than this; obviously other than harrassing people in West Bank and sniping civilians?

Someone might correct me on this but i think the last time IDF was involved in any large scale ground operations was back in 2006 in the Libanon war.

 

[owlo]

Israel see this as a fight for their very survival. It is the only Jewish homeland with hostile neighbours wanting to destroy it.

I think there is a real possibility they will go for Iran.

I wouldn't even put it past them if to use a Nuke as a last resort

????? Israel have shown no desire to escalate with Iran or even with their proxies. They have declined a first strike on hezbollah too. They don’t even have the capacity to “go for Iran” -its fantasy stuff. Their nuclear doctrine prohibits using them in this situation. Youd need a) the Samson doctrine (existential threat to Israel after conventional forces defeated) or b) the nihilistic option. To bring down the world after a 2nd holocaust.

The question is simply how they prosecute the ground war.

 

[Hal9000]

Do IDF even have any experience of ground operations even at a lot smaller scale than this; obviously other than harrassing people in West Bank and sniping civilians?

I mean they have 45 million mini city that they train in. It's pretty much what they've trained for, the eventual excuse to storm Gaza and steal more land.

 

[Superden]

Well over 150k at the London march today. Hardly makes the news...

 

[Superden]

If some people posted about the Israelis in the same manner some of you have been recently posting about the Palestinians there would be hell to pay....

 

[Superden]

Will be interesting to see how attitudes change during the war. Especially if Hezbollah cause major damage to Israel.

you can expect to see celebratory rallies in a number of UK cities I should imagine. Will quickly get very hostile

And who will be holding these rallies?

 

[tomaldinho1]

Well over 150k at the London march today. Hardly makes the news...

Literally is on bbc homepage. Headline is the actual war though (quite rightly)

 

[Raoul]

So what you're saying 'destroy Hamas' you really mean destroy Palestinians, but you're too afraid to say it. Also the Al Qaeda and ISIS comparison is absurd. About as similar as the Nazis or the Vietcong or Islamic Relief.



That's probably what Israel wants to do.. and they may succeed. But the last 100 years has shown a lot can change in a short amount of time. Technologically, politically, financialy, geopgrahically. What was strong today could very well be obsolete tomorrow.

To get to 200 years they'll first have to navigate the next 50 years, where I doubt any of their nearby arab neighbours will forget their conquests.. for the very reason that they'll all be fearing they could be next. With the US machine behind them, who's to stop them?

They're going after Hamas members and/or other fighters who push back against the invasion (a vast majority of which will be Hamas and Islamic Jihad). Non combatant Palestinians have been given a 10 day notice that there will be fighting in those areas, so its hard to make the case the Israelis are going after them.

 

[Superden]

They're going after Hamas members and/or other fighters who push back against the invasion (a vast majority of which will be Hamas and Islamic Jihad). Non combatant Palestinians have been given a 10 day notice that there will be fighting in those areas, so its hard to make the case the Israelis are going after them.

What about the aid agencies of various stripes that have said the warnings are meaningless to many stuck in the North? Comments from IDF that they would be treated as Hamas collaborators and the increase in bombing is vile.

 

[owlo]

They're going after Hamas members and/or other fighters who push back against the invasion (a vast majority of which will be Hamas and Islamic Jihad). Non combatant Palestinians have been given a 10 day notice that there will be fighting in those areas, so its hard to make the case the Israelis are going after them.

Does somewhat feel like ethnic cleansing though. Making their lives such a misery that escape becomes imperative, then making sure theyll have nothing to want to return to. My reading is that’s been somewhat part of Israeli strategy since begin in 1977 and been accelerated especially in the last decade or so. Perhaps @2cents has something to share on this as I’m particularly bad at placing sources.

 

[Conor]

 

[Raoul]

What about the aid agencies of various stripes that have said the warnings are meaningless to many stuck in the North? Comments from IDF that they would be treated as Hamas collaborators and the increase in bombing is vile.

That's the tragedy of it. Some won't be able to move, and yet the war will take place either way as the Israelis are committed to going in.

 

[Superden]

Evil Isis like Hamas attack civilians in a village in Israel.
Oh..its actually Jewish settlers..

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[E-mal]

Israel is just a military outpost of the USA and would not be behaving like they do without the Americans support. They will never have peace if they don't recognise the rights of Palestinians to statehood. The settlers are as much or even worse a terrorist as Hamas. Settler violence has been going on for a long time without media coverage.

 

[owlo]

That's probably what Israel wants to do.. and they may succeed. But the last 100 years has shown a lot can change in a short amount of time. Technologically, politically, financialy, geopgrahically. What was strong today could very well be obsolete tomorrow.

To get to 200 years they'll first have to navigate the next 50 years, where I doubt any of their nearby arab neighbours will forget their conquests.. for the very reason that they'll all be fearing they could be next. With the US machine behind them, who's to stop them?

Yea there was some rueful sarcasm there, hence reference to the US Indian territory. I think it’s been their plan for a while, wait i5 out, erode support and the amount people care, and just cleanse them by “expelling” them. It’s definitely the current terrorist tactic in the West Bank. I think that if anybody seriously wants to broker peace and make a 2 state solution then both sides need to hear some home truths which will be difficult. It’s not going back to the 1967 borders, Jerusalem needs a delicate deal, and Israel cannot keep empowering terrorist settlers and ministers. Palestinians need security from terror too. That said, it would need to be impressed on Palestinians that any militant action against their neighbours will likely result in invasion and I’m not sure anybody sees the majority of their leadership as honest brokers with enough control to prevent it, or to prevent a pa,edginess becoming another Iranian proxy. Either Israel or Hamas generally kill any hope.

 

[Amir]

Great, if they're emtpy give them back to the Palestinians, come to an agreement on borders for a two state solution and work on erasing the trauma from memory and enact a new reality? Or continue taking more Palestinian land and killing more people and ensure the trauma remains in memory and the cycle repeats for future generations.

Why would we "give back" our lands? This isn't the West Bank. This is the south of Israel. If they attacked Tel Aviv and pepople fled, should we have given them Tel Aviv?