I'm genuinely agreeing with you. Let's keep going on about the fee in this thread and whether it's a bargain or not.
Declan Rice | Arsenal £105m player
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Yes let's move on. He was brilliant against Sevilla, would have been MOTM if not for Jesus's goal and assist. He's been playing a bit further forward recently with Jorginho behind him and while his offensive game is obviously not as strong as the defensive side, I can see why Arteta wants to push him up. He's had a couple of big runs from deep (eg against Bournemouth and in this game) where the opposition couldn't get near him. He's not particularly quick but is so strong and powerful. Hopefully Arteta can refine his passing and decision-making to break through the lines more often. And he has an insane motor and can get back so effortlessly. With Partey likely on his way out after this season, Arteta must be looking for the perfect partner for Rice. I know we were interested in Zubimendi last summer too. Wouldn't that be something.
That's my big intrigue with how this plays out. I think we can all see Partey moving on in the summer, with his age, contract situation, fitness concerns & other issues. Possibly Jorginho as well.
The question then will be, will we target a deeper midfielder like a Zubimendi and see Rice as a box to box 8 in the main, or have Rice as the main 6 and target another profile of midfileder?
There's a promising talent at Leverkusen called Granit something.
I mean you say you don't care about the fee but then talk about the fee and the fee of another player in comparison to Rice's fee so yeah it seems like you do care about the fee to a certain extent.I agree with this and is what I really meant when I brought up the bargain comment (didn't think it would spark such discussion, or did I)
In all seriousness though, with Rice you get other priceless qualities - leadership, monster mentality, professional attitude. I'm sure these are also big reasons Arteta was so desperate for him. I love Odegaard, but Rice is absolutely captain material.
When I consider 19yo Lavia went for £58mil in the same window, Rice's fee makes more sense. It is the lesser risk IMO and more importantly, Rice is ready to do the job NOW. If we got Lavia instead, I'm not so sure he'd be running our midfield in Partey's absence quite so well. Partey himself cost us £45mil and at most we're going to get 3-4 years out of him. Not even when you consider his significant absences (he's been injured about 35% of the time he's been here). Rice is very reliable, hardly gets injured (hope I haven't now jinxed him) and if we get 7-8 years out of him and he elevates us to the next level, that fee will not matter years down the track. Here's hoping it all goes to plan.
I’m not the one who brought up his fee. I just disagreed with a poster who said something I found to be pretty insane. That’s all this is. It’s like half a page worth of posts at the most. You say you agree but you still come across as a bit upset by the whole conversation around his fee.
That's how every fans works unless their own becomes involved. If it was rice playing for United or Chelsea , same arsenal fans would have micro managed each of his performance and called him an average signing. And vice versa is also true.
No one knows what a 105m player looks like but whoever cost that much money when that is rice or antony or enzo or grealish should just help their team win major honors. Maybe I am harsh but that's how it should be. So far I am not sure if either of them will help them do that.
Unless his (supposed) plan to turn Havertz into our 8 works out, which would be a minor miracle at this stage, the LCM role is still up for grabs. I think Arteta will go for another 6, as even if one of Partey/Jorginho stay, we ideally need to find Rice's long-term partner. With Rice's incredible engine, think box to box role makes a lot of sense. But really I just want to see Rice-Partey-Odegaard first.
Everyone cares about his fee hence the thread title. Arsenal fans feel we've spent well while rival fans feel the opposite. No surprises there. Personally I think it was the right time to make this kind of signing and if we're going to stay in the CL, we can't avoid the crazy market inflation. Competition is too tough these days.
Not harsh at all. That's why we broke the bank for Rice. We want to win it all.
Maybe we get there, maybe we don't. But we're giving it a proper go and I'm here for it. It's been so long since we've been in this kind of position, I'm relishing every minute of it.Absolutely. Signing rice by you guys was a smart move. Whether the 105m is well spent or not, only time can tellNot harsh at all. That's why we broke the bank for Rice. We want to win it all.
I'd agree with this in the main. I might change it slightly to say say rather than help their team win major honours, to make the team at least challenge for major honours.
Maybe it's just me, but i hate to say that we should or we must win the big trophies, as it's very difficult to do in the present environment, competing against City & Pep especially.
However, think it's ok to say that you should at least expect to challenge for major trophies, that's for sure.
I don't know what the argument really is. Everyone knows Rice is overpriced but he is performing well or performed as Arteta expected of him for Arsenal. He is a good addition to the team, and he is pricey. For someone to be considered as a bargain he needs to perform better than expectation and his transfer fee is below the market price. In this case, Maddison is a bargain. Havertz on the other hand is neither a bargain nor performed as Arteta expected of him at the moment, which made him a flop so far. I hope he can turn around.
No, I don't agree a 105m means the player can win you trophy. It only means he is expensive, nothing more. It is a team sport and there are so many factors for a club to win a trophy.
No, I don't agree a 105m means the player can win you trophy. It only means he is expensive, nothing more. It is a team sport and there are so many factors for a club to win a trophy.
Literally just a few weeks ago I said a contingent of Arsenal fans expected him to become a dynamic box-to-box 8 to show the full complement of his skills which he could not do playing in West Ham's style and, in this role, his price would be more justifiable because he could demonstrate a broader range of offensive skills in addition to his obvious defensive capabilities. You pushed back on this idea, suggesting that he was the long term Partey replacement at the 6. Now, after two weeks, Rice in this box-to-box role more long term makes a lot of sense and you want to see a Rice-Partey-Odegaard midfield first, in which presumably Rice would play this dynamic 8 role. Make it make sense.
It seems the only constant is twisting and contorting to defend Rice, even at the expense of diminishing other Arsenal players. Odegaard captained you to one of your best seasons in a very long time and has grown into a top player at the club and yet, after a slight funk, many Arsenal fans are ready to jettison him as captain in favor of Rice even though they are the same age. You call his performance versus Sevilla MOTM, but for Jesus' excellent performance, but how was Rice obviously better than Saliba, Martinelli or Tomiyasu. Why are you willing to diminish these players in order to prop up Rice? This was one of Tomiyasu's best performances in a long time. I don't see any Arsenal fans bumping any of their threads after performances that were at least on par if not better than Rice. Why is that?
The answer is Rice's price. The other players were all bought for low to reasonable fees, so there is no need for Arsenal fans to be constantly reflexively defensive about their performances and prove to everybody that they got it right and it is justified. Fans are therefore going to funny extents to justify it rather than, as you suggest, just enjoying his performances and looking at them in a more sober lens.The price is a big driver of the behavior, so of course you will get responses. It was the same with Grealish, Nunez and a number of other high-dollar purchases. Opposing fan bases clown their performances and constantly bring up the price and a lot of their own club's fans went to funny lengths to find and amplify positives from their performances. Rice is definitely performing better than them at the beginning of their big club tenures, but it is the same dynamic at work. This is almost a rite of passage for a high-dollar transfer; I'm not sure why Declan needs an exemption from the treatment.
I get the impulse to defend Rice, but don't be surprised when you receive pushback after telling the world that something that Cunha and Nunes did multiple times (in the same game) when United played Wolves is all of a sudden so amazing and brilliant. And their runs actually led to dangerous chances. And regarding standards, yes he needs to win a big trophy. No one says anything about Alisson's or VvD's record-breaking prices now because they won big trophies. Rice was brought in to win trophies. When you are spending at this price point, it is pretty much a pre-condition that you need to win big trophies to be deemed a success. I can't think of any example of a record-breaking, high-dollar transfer player not winning trophies and being deemed a success, so the same will apply to Rice. No need to continue lowering standards in order to prop up Rice. Yes, it is hard, but these are the stakes.
Did you ever consider that some Arsenal fans might just think that Rice has been one of our best performers?
Also, the idea that he has to play at 8 to justify his fee is seriously outdated. The lone 6 in a 4-3-3 can make or break your team - ask City fans what it was like playing without Rodri for three games.
I think what's happening is Rice hasn't really settled with a partner yet. Partey has been out most of the season so far (and when they played together Arteta inverted him at RB, maybe because Zinchenko was out?), and I think everyone can agree that Jorginho is only a stop-gap/squad player. So no one is quite sure yet what Arteta's midfield plans really are. But Arteta has spoken about pushing Rice up the pitch, and IMO box to box/8 role is what he plans in the long-term. He has been doing that in the last couple of games. However, Arteta has often spoken about versatility and wanting to be tactically flexible and unpredictable, so perhaps we as fans get too focused on players being shoehorned into one position, when Arteta may not see it that way. It's also possible he sees Rice as both a 6 and 8, changing positions based on player availability, game state etc.
We are excited about our expensive, shiny new toy, who has run our midfield this season. Yes, it feels good that the club seems to have spent well here (so far). It wasn't that long ago that whenever Partey was out (which is often), I would dread the inevitible dip in performances/quality. Partey getting injured at the end of 21/22 was IMO the main reason we missed out on top 4 that season. Partey has missed most of the season so far and we're thrilled to be 3rd in the league (more importantly keeping pace with City) and top of our CL group, a competition we've been out of for almost a decade. In the league we've played City, United, Spurs and Chelsea already and haven't lost - all without Partey (though he was a sub vs City). I never would have imagined that in my wildest dreams. Another reason is Arteta seems to think Rice is the key to how he wants to evolve our system - we were chasing him for a long, long time. To the point that Arteta seemed to want Rice and only Rice. So I'm very excited to see what he has planned.
I absolutely agree that we must win trophies and that is why the board continue to back Arteta. They have backed him throughout the whole squad rebuild, and as long as it looks like he's going in the right direction, will continue to back him. The Kroenkes have a very good track record with their other sports teams; LA Rams (Superbowl champions 2022), Denver Nuggets (NBA champions 2023), Colorado Avalanche (Stanley Cup champions 2022). There is no doubt the aim is to have Arsenal follow suit.
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I can tell you're really excited, so I won't begrudge you that!
I watched the Denver Nuggets play opening night against the Lakers and they look phenomenal. Jokic is simply an amazing player. If the Kroenkes can pull it off with Arsenal they might go down as some of the best sports owners of all time (not that this is something I really track).
He’s going to be much better value than Casemiro and someone like Matic combined. We should always be trying to buy for the long term and to extract as much ROI as possible. I didn’t really fancy rice compared to someone like FDJ or someone who looked potentially more dynamic but he’s proving me wrong and he’s got years of improvement in him. A Fergie signing. Spend big on players who look like young NT leaders, get their best years and build around them. It’s always been expensive but pretty foolproof (apart from in the case of Sancho who to be fair looked a potential world beater and I was all for his signing)
Mate, we have come such a long way in the last 3 years. The club was in a rut and slipping further and further down the table. It's taken huge investment and careful planning to get us competing again. Honestly, it feels like a dream sometimes because the last toxic days of Wenger, Emery and Arteta's early reign are still clear in my mind. The trauma is still there. I had friends who tried to get me to support United or City as I kept saying I was dumping Arsenal. But I never could and suffered through all the horror, waking up 2-3am to watch us play crap and be in a bad mood all day, cursing Arsenal over and over.
For me, Rice's signing is also very significant and exciting because it shows the club still want to push on and go to the next level. I was worried that having made top 4, perhaps the investment would stop or they'd think the squad was good enough. But we spent a further £200mil in the summer so we're not playing around.
And yeh I was buzzing when I realised Nuggets was owned by Kroenkes. I didn't find out until recently. Definitely feels good that our owners seem to know this industry very well.
This, IMO, is why Arteta had such a hard-on for Rice. He is of the right age, experience level and has the leadership qualities that he wants in his midfield. He's still young enough that he can develop certain aspects of his game to best suit Arteta's system. We would not have pulled the trigger for £100mil if he was 27yo IMO.
He’s an absolutely sensational player, and seems like a very very decent guy.
Yeh I think I underestimated him myself. I knew he was good, but he's running our midfield. In Partey's absence, he's been the one constant (apart from 45min missed vs Spurs) - he's played with Odegaard, Havertz, Vieira, Smith-Rowe, Jorginho. He's played as a 6 or 8. And there's been no huge drop-off in our overall performances despite not having a set/stable midfield around him. He was our best player after Saliba IMO vs Newcastle, seems to be able to track back so quickly.
there was one play near the end where joelinton tried to knock it past him and collect it on the other side. I’d say 99% of the time joelinton gets the ball, but rice read what was about to happen and recovered the ball.
Arsenal fans up in here with stockholm syndrome "ahh yeah he is great, best player ever" while losing three points and he playing shite
It's the first loss of the season in the league and away against a good Newcastle side. Always a hard place to go to. This is a game you can expect to drop points in, hardly a disaster. And it was a narrow loss in a tight game, not like we were massively outplayed. And IMO Rice was our best player behind Saliba.Arsenal fans up in here with stockholm syndrome "ahh yeah he is great, best player ever" while losing three points and he playing shite
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You really think he saw more than a 4 minutes highlights of the game ?
Him and Saliba were very good, no matter the final result. He has already shown signs of improvement in those first 15 games, let's hope he can continue and has more in reserve.
Arsenal were poor but Rice was pretty good again, as has been the case for almost all season. His positioning is excellent and his sense of danger is always spot on. I think he's the only player, along with Saliba, who have kept their standards up. Everyone else fluctuate between good and average too frequently.Arsenal fans up in here with stockholm syndrome "ahh yeah he is great, best player ever" while losing three points and he playing shite
I think I'm starting to get him now. I can see the why?
It's interesting because Rice has definitely been their second best player this season, behind Saliba (who is arguably the best centre-back in the league now), but Arsenal's general play has gone down several levels.
They're nowhere near as effective going forward as they were at this point last season, and are much more reliant on a strong defence to see out games than an overwhelming attack to win them. And this drop in performance produces a style of match which suits Rice much more, and gives him the platform to showcase his strengths. So it creates this paradoxical effect where Arsenal play worse football with Rice which, in turn, makes Rice play better.
Now obviously it would be wildly unfair to blame Rice for this change in Arsenal's play, but going from Partey to him is likely a minor part of the equation. The major parts, however, are undoubtedly swapping Xhaka (who was surprisingly integral to Arsenal) for Havertz (who was a bizarre signing) and the fact they've rarely lined up with the attacking trio of Saka - Jesus - Martinelli which saw them run riot early on last year.
If Arsenal had nailed the LCM role when replacing Xhaka there would probably be less doubts about Rice. It was a huge outlay for a defensive midfielder so expectations are justifiably heightened, but he's as nailed on a signing as you can hope given his profile and experience in the league. With him and Odegaard they have 2/3 of their midfield equation locked down for the foreseeable future (plus two captains to boot).
They're nowhere near as effective going forward as they were at this point last season, and are much more reliant on a strong defence to see out games than an overwhelming attack to win them. And this drop in performance produces a style of match which suits Rice much more, and gives him the platform to showcase his strengths. So it creates this paradoxical effect where Arsenal play worse football with Rice which, in turn, makes Rice play better.
Now obviously it would be wildly unfair to blame Rice for this change in Arsenal's play, but going from Partey to him is likely a minor part of the equation. The major parts, however, are undoubtedly swapping Xhaka (who was surprisingly integral to Arsenal) for Havertz (who was a bizarre signing) and the fact they've rarely lined up with the attacking trio of Saka - Jesus - Martinelli which saw them run riot early on last year.
If Arsenal had nailed the LCM role when replacing Xhaka there would probably be less doubts about Rice. It was a huge outlay for a defensive midfielder so expectations are justifiably heightened, but he's as nailed on a signing as you can hope given his profile and experience in the league. With him and Odegaard they have 2/3 of their midfield equation locked down for the foreseeable future (plus two captains to boot).
I think this is pretty fair. The other missing parts of the equations are Arteta's tactical tinkering to try to get the midfield to work and injury problems. Arteta has done everything from trying Partey at RB, to Rice at LCM to benching Gabriel at the beginning of the season to try to get things to click. I get it partially, because I supposed it is better to experiment in the earlier part of the season to see what clicks for the run it, but I think it has been a bit disruptive for Arsenal's fluidity. Injuries have also not helped, though everyone has to deal with that. In particular in think Partey and Timber have hurt the most. Timber was looking quite good in the preseason as an option that could progress the ball well, but still offer a more robust defensive presence than the likes of Zinchenko. Partey showed what he could do with his game-breaking pass against City, but even beyond that, his injury issues mean that Arsenal have yet to play the best of their midfield options, given that Havertz is looking like a bust.
We have a lot of players out of form. Glad Saliba and Rice have been holding the fort because it would have been worse off. Defensively we are as good as we have been in decades. Our attack is very poor though. A lot of that is because of form, but I feel we have also tactically made adjustments that have further hampered our flow.
We have to move the ball a hell of a lot quicker than we have been. It is so predictable out there.
We have to move the ball a hell of a lot quicker than we have been. It is so predictable out there.
As I told people before he arrived. He will never offer the attacking thrust Xhaka did. Arteta should have chosen to groom Smith- Rowe to take over that particular duty.
I think you can argue that Rice is at least partly responsible for that. It was the worry a lot of us had here, that we would be getting a defensive player who would slow us down in attack.
This is Pogba all over again. Someone with a reputaiton of a world class but actually average with few good games.
You seem to be looking for the Havertz thread, it's that way
He's a defensive rock and rarely makes a mistake. Arteta needs to get a more attack minded no 8 next to him to take us to the next level. Still feel that there's something in the Rice, Havertz Odegaard trio and hope it gets time till the end of the season. But if not, Havertz is the one that needs to be replaced by someone else upto the job. Like others have said, we have got 2/3rds of the puzzle.
I would argue not. The are three other reasons why our attack is slower.
1. We've missed Partey. Rice has been playing with Jorginnho or Havertz in midfield who slow down our attack significantly. Last season when we lost Partey our attacking play suffered.
2. Odegaard has been really off form
3. Jesus has missed significant parts of the season
Based on his performance against Newcastle, you could make a case that he could be our number 8. Would love to see how he plays with Partey. Its a shame we've yet to see them play together in midfield this season.
Nah, he's not an 8. Becomes a headless chicken in the final third. He might grow into that role given time, but then we need a 6 because of Parteys injury troubles and doesnt make sense to move him from his best position
Time is almost up for ESR, he just cannot stay fit and fight for a place on the team, let alone on the bench... If Villa comes again with a bid it will definitely be considered this time.
Rice as a dm should be the way to go about. Playing him with another Dm sort of mf in Jorginho is not going to work. Harvetz is the real issue. For 65m , they should have invested on a striker or a CM to partner rice.
He’s verge least ambitious footballer I’ve ever seen. Jorginho passes forward more than him.
I still rate him though. I think he’s a system player and needs people around him not called Kai.
I still rate him though. I think he’s a system player and needs people around him not called Kai.