Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Giggsy PO]

Just so I can catch up on the Caf position: the video of tunnels, weapons and what not found under a children's hospital - that was an elaborately staged fake by the IDF? Do I have that right?

Because if Hamas really does build war infrastructure under a children's hospital, I feel like it would force some pretty tough questions I'd love to hear opinions on.

Do the anti-Isreali posters really, honestly believe Hamas aren't doing this?

They know Hamas is doing this. They have just decided to ignore/twist/deny/lie about it because it doesn't fit their narrative.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Just so I can catch up on the Caf position: the video of tunnels, weapons and what not found under a children's hospital - that was an elaborately staged fake by the IDF? Do I have that right?

Because if Hamas really does build war infrastructure under a children's hospital, I feel like it would force some pretty tough questions I'd love to hear opinions on.

Do the anti-Isreali posters really, honestly believe Hamas aren't doing this?

Why would anyone respond to this? You are coming here with a snarky tone and putting words in people's mouths.

 

[R'hllor]

They know Hamas is doing this. They have just decided to ignore/twist/deny/lie about it because it doesn't fit their narrative.

Whats their narrative

 

[Badunk]

I haven't seen anything that proves there are tunnels under the hospital. Has footage been released or something?

And posters who are anti-Israeli actions are not pro-Hamas. Please stop claiming otherwise.

 

[Badunk]

And, for the record, I wouldn't believe the Israelis if they told me I support Manchester United. They have lied through their teeth from the very start and have done so for decades.

 

[Beachryan]

Why would anyone respond to this? You are coming here with a snarky tone and putting words in people's mouths.

That's fair I guess. Apologies about the tone.

Do you believe Hamas has built war infrastructure under children's hospitals? If yes, what is the correct method of addressing that fact?

 

[2cents]

Where does Hamas rank in the list of terrorist groups with respect to size, organization, threat posed etc compared to others like say Al Queda and ISIS?

We’re talking very different types of organizations, despite having somewhat shared origins. Al Qaeda and ISIS are transnational, global jihadi organizations that regard expressions of nationalism as acts of blasphemy against God. They aim to overthrow regional governments and attack Western and other global targets when possible. They have traditionally appealed to and drawn much of their manpower from a tiny pool of Muslims from across the globe, but have struggled to consolidate a territorial basis - some notable exceptions being the ISIS caliphate of 2013-2016 and the current Al Qaeda run territory in Syria’s Idlib province. They lack mass appeal due to their indiscriminate violence and dogmatic sectarianism, and so their scope for action has tended to remain limited to war-torn peripheries. There are signs that the Al Qaeda aligned franchise groups in certain areas such as Syria have come to understand the alienating impact their actions have on local populations, and have attempted to adjust accordingly, but it remains to be seen if they can expand beyond regions already devastated by war.

Hamas on the other hand are an Islamo-Nationalist movement with a singular focus on the Palestinian cause. They are as much a political party and social movement as they are a “terrorist organization”, a term that really doesn’t capture what they’re about. They have deep roots among the Palestinian population of the occupied territories, and in particular Gaza, and can be regarded as a legitimate, mainstream expression of the broader Palestinian national movement, given their popularity and success over the last three and a half decades. They have never attacked targets outside Israel/Palestine, and do not accept non-Palestinian volunteers.* That said, they do have their origins in the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, and so acknowledge an ideological lineage which they share with al Qaeda and many other analogous organizations going all the way back to the 1930s.

Those working in Israeli intelligence understand the distinction. However from a popular Israeli perspective there is little difference. Like Al Qaeda and ISIS, Hamas have attacked Israeli civilians using suicide bombs, mass shootings, stabbings, car rammings, etc., and now it is claimed beheadings. It seems to the Israelis that, just like with Al Qaeda and ISIS attacks on Western targets, there is no limit to the violence Hamas is willing to inflict on them.

*(edit): actually I can think of at least one possible case. In 2003 during the Second Intifada two British suicide bombers attacked the well known bar Mike’s Place on the Tel Aviv beachfront, and they were subsequently claimed by Hamas.

 

[Beachryan]

I haven't seen anything that proves there are tunnels under the hospital. Has footage been released or something?

And posters who are anti-Israeli actions are not pro-Hamas. Please stop claiming otherwise.

I'm not accusing anyone of being pro-Hamas. There are many very committed posters on here correctly calling out how utterly devastating this offensive has been on Gazan children. There are literally hundreds of posts rightly condemning the deaths.

I'm just looking for opinions because my own mind isn't made up on what to do about the fact that Hamas builds war infrastructure under a children's hospital. As in, what would I do as an Israeli commander tasked with getting to that Hamas cell given that it's under a children's hospital.

 

[jeepers]

Interesting, and gut wrenching comparison

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Pardon my ignorance, and the actions of the IDF and the Hamas are inexcusable and unforgivable, but isn’t this due to the children making up 50% of the Palestinian population in addition to the high population density?

 

[Giggsyking]

And they still resist the idea of accepting Palestinian refugees. That is why I scoff at the BS coming out from the mouths of those Middle Eastern governments on their "support" for Palestinians. If they care one bit about civilians, they better find a way to support their most urgent needs now and then keep the political games for later.

In comparison, a tiny nation named Macedonia (now North Macedonia) took a large chunk of Kosovar refugees (132,500 according to MSF back in April 1999) even though they were friendlier to Serbia than most other nations in the Balkans were during the late 1990s.



Seeing those tunnels right underneath the children's hospital really fills me with rage because that is the epitome of not giving a feck about your own citizens. To think that Hamas, as Gaza's government body gone beyond its expiry date, swallowed hundreds of millions of dollars worthy of international aid into building that crap while life conditions inside Gaza were deteriorating even without the IDF, this is where I call out the amount of sheer stupidity when masses protest for Palestine without those valuable facts in mind.

Trying to justify ethnic cleansing? Eh

Guess we are back to the nineteen thirties.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

I'm not accusing anyone of being pro-Hamas. There are many very committed posters on here correctly calling out how utterly devastating this offensive has been on Gazan children. There are literally hundreds of posts rightly condemning the deaths.

I'm just looking for opinions because my own mind isn't made up on what to do about the fact that Hamas builds war infrastructure under a children's hospital. As in, what would I do as an Israeli commander tasked with getting to that Hamas cell given that it's under a children's hospital.

I will assume many people will have different opinions.

I feel there will always be casualties in war but when Israel are dropping air strikes at a hospital that might have/have tunnels but definitely have loads of innocent civilians and are needed to tend to the many others injured, a lot from further Israeli attacks... That's not the way.

If they started with a targeted ground offensive at Hamas tunnels from the start then I would be more forgiving I guess. That would put Israeli troops at risk of course but would severely reduce civilian casualties in my opinion. But Israel have zero confidence in their troops so have only sent them in one it's all nearly rubble.

Dunno, it's a tough one to answer.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

no tunnels? No weapons? Stop spreding random Twitter lies.

This is the worst, staged footage I've ever seen. It's ridiculous

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

I don't think her translation is accurate. (purely isn't the only sense here). In Swedish I could use a similar adjective ("rent") to say "exclusively". That's how I understand the sentence she is quoting here... "Das sind doch keine reinen Deutschen" should be understood as "They're not solely Germans".

OK, are you Swedish?

 

[The Corinthian]

no tunnels? No weapons? Stop spreding random Twitter lies.

Here’s a thread that goes through the footage debunking it bit by bit:

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[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

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This is who was speaking;

https://www.ohchr.org/en/special-procedures/sr-palestine/francesca-albanese

https://www.ohchr.org/en/special-procedures/sr-palestine

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Here’s a thread that goes through the footage debunking it bit by bit:

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The fact they say "raw footage" then cut the footage and don't show anything of note is incredible. Really amazing people can swallow such propaganda so easily.

 

[BootsyCollins]

Would be easy for them to film them actually going down the tunnels from the hosptial no? Instead of showing an entrance and then cutting to another room.

 

[That_Bloke]

Just so I can catch up on the Caf position: the video of tunnels, weapons and what not found under a children's hospital - that was an elaborately staged fake by the IDF? Do I have that right?

Because if Hamas really does build war infrastructure under a children's hospital, I feel like it would force some pretty tough questions I'd love to hear opinions on.

Do the anti-Isreali posters really, honestly believe Hamas aren't doing this?

You might want to ponder with these incensing blanket statements. You've never contributed in this thread in any constructive manner and seem to have no intent on having any reasonable debate. You're just here to throw a grenade in the room from time to time and then vanish.

To my eyes, there's little doubt that Hamas built tunnels or command centers either near or under sensitive buildings like hospitals, schools and the likes. The most basic guerilla warfare tactics against an overwhelmingly superior occupier would dictate it. Especially when they're literally confined in a 140 square miles territory surrounded from all sides, in one of the most densely populated areas on Earth and from which there's no retreat, no escape. They can't win militarily on an open field unless they'd want to die for absolutely nothing, it's common sense. They also bet on high civilian casualties to win the war of opinions which is where they have a fighting chance. No matter how callous and repulsive it is, it's neither the first nor the last time such tactics were used throughout history. And they work, most of the time. Civilian deaths be damned.

It's still no excuse for the absolute disregard of palestinian lives showed by Israel in this war through the utterly insane bombing campaign and the collective punishment inflicted on the Gazan population by cutting off the access to food, water, power and fuel. No one should give more credit to the Israeli governement, and by extension the IDF, than the Hamas, when it comes to "facts" when both have an extensive history of lying and gaslighting. Especially war time. As long as no third party has verified the claims independently, anything coming from either side is to be taken with a feckton of salt.

There's no good side in this particular war between Hamas and the Netanyahu Government, none of them are playing by the rules or holding any kind of moral high ground. Each one of them is showing some of the ugliest parts of the human soul, with civilians on both sides caught in-between.

 

[Real Name]

Here’s a thread that goes through the footage debunking it bit by bit:

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Names of the terrorists on the paper is the best bit. Apparently its days of the week. That's so hilariously bad.

 

[Conor]

How the feck can you currently hold the opinion that the Israeli government put out accurate and objective information? Even before 7/10 I don't get how anyone could hold that opinion.

There's a pretty big difference between sharing incorrect information believing it to be true, and willfully sharing/creating 'fake news' to manipulate the public, it's plain to see for anyone with eyes that they do the latter essentially every day.

I don't understand how you can hold them as a reliable source knowing that.

 

[The Corinthian]

Its a part of their communication strategy to explain what they are doing (from their perspective of course). I don't see anything wrong with that as long as the information is accurate. If it isn't then it obviously needs to be called out as such. The concern I have is that critics of Israel are needlessly cornering themselves into a situation where they feel the need to reflexively argue that night is day when presented with information that is contrary to their preferred narrative. The exact same thing appears to be happening in Israeli society where anything emanating from the Palestinian side is automatically regarded as a lie designed to support Khhhamas.

At the end of the day, there is an information war taking place where both sides are seeking to appeal to their respective core audiences. Its up to the people taking in the information to hold both sides to account.

Hasbara pumps out fake news, misinformation and straight up fabrications. I don’t see how you can say with a straight face that it’s actual reliable news from their perspective. With the amount of lies and fake news Israel put out, I’d say everyone should be highly sceptical of anything they say, and it should be independently verified.

By all means, apply the same rigour to Hamas, but we have multiple independent resources that corroborate the situation in Gaza - journalist, aid workers, UN etc. which presents us with the reality you can’t really apply the ‘both sides’ illogic to the situation.

 

[HTG]

OK, are you Swedish?

I disagree with the interpretation. If that is a direct quote and the quote is accurate, it is absolutely horrible. In this context „pure“ very clearly relates to being German. So the given translation „they aren’t pure Germans“ is very much accurate. And I don’t believe that any serious German political or diplomat would phrase something like this without knowing the implications of such a statement. Especially if you consider our history, that quote is a pure disaster.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

This is the precise language the nazis used to justify how they treated Jews. No European country would accept them (including the UK), so they are obviously bad people who deserve it all.


I'd suggest to you that if you are using the same argument as hitler, you are not on the right side of the argument.

Is that all you've got? I have already made my feelings clear enough about Netanyahu and about what his crazy coalition wants; they deserve to go. If you can't even accept the basic notion that Hamas has to go as well, then you don't have a single clue about the complexity of the situation.

My earlier point about refugees is that nothing absolves Egypt from their basic responsibility at taking care of any single Gazan who will demand asylum for the time being. The way they treated Palestinians with foreign citizenship leaving Gaza has been nothing short of pathetic. Is that too much asked when urgent needs are what they are? If you want my honest answer to you, I say North Macedonia (as well as Albania, Montenegro, Bosnia-Herzegovina and the rest of Europe) have far more respect for the notion of sheltering those refugees back in 1999 than Egypt has now.

Trying to justify ethnic cleansing? Eh

Guess we are back to the nineteen thirties.

If you can't understand the complexity of the situation, that is your problem. Why should I waste my time with you when you bring basically nothing to the conversation? That is the kind of immaturity I have seen with the likes of Rashida Tlaib, of whom I have seen as a total hysterical idiot since this conflict started. Thank God that Bernie Sanders voiced the whole thing with a much cooler head to remind us that we have 2 sides of (very unpopular) extremists in charge of this conflict.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

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[That_Bloke]

We’re talking very different types of organizations, despite having somewhat shared origins. Al Qaeda and ISIS are transnational, global jihadi organizations that regard expressions of nationalism as acts of blasphemy against God. They aim to overthrow regional governments and attack Western and other global targets when possible. They have traditionally appealed to and drawn much of their manpower from a tiny pool of Muslims from across the globe, but have struggled to consolidate a territorial basis - some notable exceptions being the ISIS caliphate of 2013-2016 and the current Al Qaeda run territory in Syria’s Idlib province. They lack mass appeal due to their indiscriminate violence and dogmatic sectarianism, and so their scope for action has tended to remain limited to war-torn peripheries. There are signs that the Al Qaeda aligned franchise groups in certain areas such as Syria have come to understand the alienating impact their actions have on local populations, and have attempted to adjust accordingly, but it remains to be seen if they can expand beyond regions already devastated by war.

Hamas on the other hand are an Islamo-Nationalist movement with a singular focus on the Palestinian cause. They are as much a political party and social movement as they are a “terrorist organization”, a term that really doesn’t capture what they’re about. They have deep roots among the Palestinian population of the occupied territories, and in particular Gaza, and can be regarded as a legitimate, mainstream expression of the broader Palestinian national movement, given their popularity and success over the last three and a half decades. They have never attacked targets outside Israel/Palestine, and do not accept non-Palestinian volunteers.That said, they do have their origins in the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, and so acknowledge an ideological lineage which they share with al Qaeda and many other analogous organizations going all the way back to the 1930s.

Those working in Israeli intelligence understand the distinction. However from a popular Israeli perspective there is little difference. Like Al Qaeda and ISIS, Hamas have attacked Israeli civilians using suicide bombs, mass shootings, stabbings, car rammings, etc., and now it is claimed beheadings. It seems to the Israelis that, just like with Al Qaeda and ISIS attacks on Western targets, there is no limit to the violence Hamas is willing to inflict on them.

*(edit): actually I can think of at least one possible case. In 2003 during the Second Intifada two British suicide bombers attacked the well known bar Mike’s Place on the Tel Aviv beachfront, and they were subsequently claimed by Hamas.

This should be pinned somewhere in this thread. I'm absolutely astounded by the amount of people jumping on the easy shortcut and choose to willfully ignore this mammoth in the room. That includes posters who I personally consider to be more informed than about 95% of those who participate in this conversation. I honestly don't know why.

On your last part, could it have something to do with a cognitive dissonance born from denying of the reality of the occupation and what it implies for the Palestinians' daily life? I mean, extremist movements are never born out of nothing. The more despair, the more extreme the response is. Unless I'm utterly wrong in my assessment.

 

[flameinthesun]

The world is broken.

The world is changing, whether for good or bad I have no idea. The one thing I'm pretty sure of is that change only moves forward not backwards. This will now be the status quo until things change again.

 

[Idxomer]

How the feck can you currently hold the opinion that the Israeli government put out accurate and objective information? Even before 7/10 I don't get how anyone could hold that opinion.

There's a pretty big difference between sharing incorrect information believing it to be true, and willfully sharing/creating 'fake news' to manipulate the public, it's plain to see for anyone with eyes that they do the latter essentially every day.

I don't understand how you can hold them as a reliable source knowing that.

It's the same people who believed the Iraqi war was just and Saddam had WMDs. They basically will believe anything coming from the US and its allies.

 

[Idxomer]

This should be pinned somewhere in this thread. I'm absolutely astounded by the amount of people jumping on the easy shortcut and choose to willfully ignore this mammoth in the room. That includes posters who I personally consider to be more informed than about 95% of those who participate in this conversation. I honestly don't know why.

On your last part, could it have something to do with a cognitive dissonance born from denying of the reality of the occupation and what it implies for the Palestinians' daily life? I mean, extremist movements are never born out of nothing. The more despair, the more extreme the response is. Unless I'm utterly wrong in my assessment.

Yep, a great post which is a rarity in this thread.

 

[2cents]

On your last part, could it have something to do with a cognitive dissonance born from denying of the reality of the occupation and what it implies for the Palestinians' daily life? I mean, extremist movements are never born out of nothing. The more despair, the more extreme the response is. Unless I'm utterly wrong in my assessment.

I think most regular people go through life without thinking too deeply about these things until the bomb goes off in front of them, Israelis not excepted. For example I just added a link in that post which includes an interview with the bouncer at the Mike’s Place attack. He’s just a normal working guy clearly struggling to understand the broader significance of what happened, and so is unable to offer any insight. Despite their military service most Israelis have been relatively shielded from the reality of the occupation and just fail to make the connection.

 

[That_Bloke]

Yep, a great post which is a rarity in this thread.

@2cents knowledge is magnitudes above anyone of us in this thread and the one poster I personally respect the most. There are still great posters, on both sides, and the discussion here has been in my personal experience, the most level-headed I've seen on the internet. As far as level-headed can go on such a highly emotional topic.

The truly infuriating and childish ones, also on both sides, are a minority and most of them never last.

 

[The Corinthian]

This is a decent, though lengthy, summary from Adam Shatz of the various elements that have produced the current situation. Well worth the read in full:

Vengeful Pathologies

I haven't had the chance to read it myself, but Mondoweiss have published their response to this - thought you may want to read it as well:

Hopeful pathologies in the war for Palestine: a reply to Adam Shatz – Mondoweiss

 

[africanspur]

Where does Hamas rank in the list of terrorist groups with respect to size, organization, threat posed etc compared to others like say Al Queda and ISIS?

They're not the same type of organisation at all, as nefarious as they all are in their own ways.

One is a localised group, who as far as I'm aware has never organised a strike of any kind outside what they consider to be their territory. This is the same as the Taliban.

ISIS /AQ are international organisations who will strike at anybody and everybody and aim to take over Islamic countries/ foster an atmosphere of hatred between Muslims and the west.

 

[africanspur]

They don't like Israel or their treatment of Arabs/Palestinians, and they need to be publicly supportive (verbally at least) but they aren't going to empower extremist/terrorist Muslim groups either, as they pose a huge problem for them domestically. Partly why they (and others) ae happy for the "Palestinian problem" remaining as Israel's problem.

What are you referring to here? Modern day Arab governments or their populations?

 

[MDFC Manager]

Pardon my ignorance, and the actions of the IDF and the Hamas are inexcusable and unforgivable, but isn’t this due to the children making up 50% of the Palestinian population in addition to the high population density?

It is a big factor yes.

The sheer swiftness of this massacre of children is what causes more global outrage compared to the other ones. I put that in here because it was people wondered why the other massacres didn't get the same level of attention.

 

[africanspur]

Pardon my ignorance, and the actions of the IDF and the Hamas are inexcusable and unforgivable, but isn’t this due to the children making up 50% of the Palestinian population in addition to the high population density?

Yep. It does bring into light though the comparisons people have been trying to make,saying the outrage is very selective when compared to the Syrian or Yemeni conflicts.

This ignores for instance that were Gaza's population equivalent to Yemen's, the current number of fatalities would be 176,000 people. In one month. For comparison, about 300,000 have died in Yemen over 10 years, including from humanitarian causes, on a conflict where the West has little to no sway over the majority of the actors (AQ/Houthis etc).

And we haven't had time yet to really have a proper humanitarian crisis unfolding from the total destruction of infrastructure.

 

[Wibble]

What are you referring to here? Modern day Arab governments or their populations?

Their governments primarily.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Do you believe Hamas has built war infrastructure under children's hospitals?

I need an investigation by external sources (not the IDF) to believe such a claim. They have lied far too much about far too many things for me to give them an inch on anything. If that means I'm ocassionally wrong in an asessment, so be it.

 

[Wibble]

I need an investigation by external sources (not the IDF) to believe such a claim. They have lied far too much about far too many things for me to give them an inch on anything. If that means I'm ocassionally wrong in an asessment, so be it.

Seriously? Nobody doubts that Hamas widely use tunnels. Why dispute such a thing?

 

[africanspur]

Seriously? Nobody doubts that Hamas widely use tunnels. Why dispute such a thing?

Nobody has disputed that Hamas uses tunnels at all.

 

[africanspur]

Their governments primarily.

I see. Because as I've said earlier in this thread, it's easy to throw around platitudes with this issue and blame Arab states, who have historically provided by far the most support for Palestinians and suffered for doing so.

Seems to be a slightly strange apportioning of blame to me.