It's a bit like arguing that Brian Clough is better than Sir Alex.
Jose > Pep - is it such a ridiculous notion?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Wow, out of curiosity, why would you have given it to Pep in 2013? Is it mostly to do with the head-to-head clashes with Mourinho/Real Madrid during that period? Pep himself would probably admit that he was still a quite young, naive and idealistic manager at that point. A much different prospect to the more seasoned tactician, man-manager and pubic figure he is now after all of the travails in Europe.
SAF has his own "miracles" in the same category of Clough's greatest triumphs, so he had at least demonstrated capacity in that regard, even if they might not be classed as being of the same caliber of Clough's. Pep has nothing in the category, whereas Mourinho does.
Simply because at that point he had created the greatest and the most dominant club side that I've personally seen. And yes, generally outclassed Mourinho in their head-to-head battles.
I've seen other underdog wins that impressed me even more than Porto. I also don't really like using Porto as a barometer of Jose's ability since his most impressive stint was at Chelsea in my opinion (and it was really, really good; properly scary as a United fan). I haven't seen anything close to that Barca side aside from Michels' Ajax and Sacchi's Milan.
There's no way to really know how good 'Pep' is as far as I'm concerned. He'll never manage a regular side, so it's impossible to know how he would cope without unlimited funds and all of the breaks available to a manger including cheating.
For these reasons, I just don't consider him anything. When thinking about great managers, I don't include him. Obviously he's got a lot of talent but nobody really knows how much is talent and how much is all the other factors.
Jose is conformably ahead of him by any metric for me. Genuinely talented manager at many levels and although he lost it a little as he got older, he's always done well.
For these reasons, I just don't consider him anything. When thinking about great managers, I don't include him. Obviously he's got a lot of talent but nobody really knows how much is talent and how much is all the other factors.
Jose is conformably ahead of him by any metric for me. Genuinely talented manager at many levels and although he lost it a little as he got older, he's always done well.
Understood, thanks. Your commentary dovetails a bit with my thoughts about the greatness of Pep's teams correlating with the full measure of his greatness as a coach - something that goes a bit beyond just winning trophies.
It's not vague
If we were to ask football heads at Arsenal, Tottenham, Chelsea, Liverpool, United, Bayern, Milan, Juventus, Inter, PSG, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Dortmund... and ask them all to select Guardiola or Mourinho, who would most clubs select?
Spending big sums doesn't always win you the league, and the way he propelled them to such a great level deserves major credit.
It's a bit mental how many people are literally but hurt from a throwaway line. If you want to play down Joses achievements then play down Peps. The guy has never taken a role without a chequebook or generational talent at his disposal.
Yes absolutely I mean league / CL
Nowhere near Sir Alex. Also, literally a Pep Guardiola is my idol.
Not Klopp even though I still give Pep the edge
In my time of watching football, I doubt very few teams made opponents feel hopeless like Pep Barcelona, you will barely touch the ball and they almost always win
I remember watching the 2011 CL final with about 15mins to go when Barcelona was comfortably leading and just passing the ball around and Man Utd players were obviously waiting for the clock to run out, my friend asked, who will stop this team from winning the CL next season.
Well next season it was Dimatteos men in one of the few miracles of football
Depends on the club.
Jose is famous in his generation. Pep, on the other hand, will have future generations still look back to him as a cornerstone in the football history.
Chelsea weren't nobodies like City when he came. Otherwise you might as well include Mancini in your ATG great list for cheating his way to a title with City from when they were nobodies.
Your point is pretty pointless as without the money he spent Chelsea wouldn't have won anything. And to the extent he spent to anything but a win would have been poor. £330 million in 2005/2006/07 is absolutely insane. To act like its a little plucky underdog is hilarious.
Whatever Pep is accused of at City, JM did it and more at Chelsea. You give that sort of cash to Fergie and Wenger in 2005 they would have wiped the floor with the league and more.
Ask fans of every top 4 club in the top 5 leagues who they'll have as their coach and i'm pretty sure Pep wins in a landslide. Even amongst Chelsea fans.
And those who think that the outcome of whatever investigations will hurt Pep's legacy are lying to themselves. Every big team out there will still want Pep because they simply know what he brings to the table in terms of coaching.
And the comparison with Armstrong is just laughable. While one can question the fact that City shouldn't have been able to put together the squad they did, they've trained and beaten their opponents fair and square on the pitch.
And those who think that the outcome of whatever investigations will hurt Pep's legacy are lying to themselves. Every big team out there will still want Pep because they simply know what he brings to the table in terms of coaching.
And the comparison with Armstrong is just laughable. While one can question the fact that City shouldn't have been able to put together the squad they did, they've trained and beaten their opponents fair and square on the pitch.
Crazy how far his reputation has fallen, he was a great manager in his time. The difference between Jose and Pep is he didn’t find his Abu Dhabi backers with a blank chequebook.
Yes they cheated off the pitch so they could win fairly on the pitch. How commendable.No, they're both literal all-time greats. Pep will be spoken about in the same terms as Michels, Cruyff and any other innovator who changed the face and concepts of the game.
I'll say the difference is that the Abu Dhabi backers with blind checks prefer another brand of football and aren't willing the back Jose.
One can argue that Chelsea and Jose did exactly the same thing but didn't get into any problem because FFP became a thing after the period they did their spending.
But with that been said, it's a false equivalence to equate financial cheating off the pitch, to athletes doping themselves and outperforming others on the pitch.
My point isn't "pointless". Mancinis prime City side wasn't as good as what Jose built. Bit of a weird comparison to hang your hat on there. I think what Pep built at City is brilliant, albeit belated (the fact it took him cheating plus a blanque chequebook and still 6(?) years to win the CL with City is impressive but I feel he could have got it sooner).
My original preference on Jose over pep cited his triumphs at Inter and Porto TOGETHER with Chelsea and you're fixated on Chelsea.
I never said his Chelsea side were underdogs by the way. I said he took Porto and Inter as underdogs to win the CL (which they were) and won it during his time there.
Would you consider Liverpool under Klopp underdogs to win the 2019 CL? Or Real Madrid under Ancelotti in 2022?
Before Klopp took over certainly.
And didn't Ancelotti go all the way after what, 5-6 years of Real Madrid failing at the quarters? Or was that Zidane actually. Real Madrid are rarely ever seen as underdogs in the CL. They tend to be up there as the top 3 or top favourite.
My point regarding Jose is, whilst really admiring Peps feat at City and Barcelona especially, I feel Jose has taken on bigger challenges and he's achieved greatness with lesser odds (Inter, Porto specifically) than Pep did. This is peak Jose though. Pep has already proven to be a manager of greater longevity.
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Jose had Roman blank checkbook
The only difference between Jose Chelsea and City Pep is A) City’s greater dominance and CL success and B) Jose creating a culture of success and major trophies I.e the whole champions mentality whereas Pep has always taken over teams that have had recent major success. His Bayern won the treble before him. Barcelona despite his brilliant job were league league winners two years prior.
Otherwise, yes. Jose is as much a chequebook manager as he’s required heavy funding everywhere he’s had success. I do think he really messed up by taking the United job. I dont rate the job he did here and for me he failed in too many regards but in hindsight I think the other top managers might have struggled under the Glazers too. The structure at Liverpool and City is miles ahead of ours for example.
That's one way of looking at things, another way will be saying that same Barcelona team didn't win anything for 2 years before he arrived and they won every single title in his first season there.
And did City have a "culture" of success before Pep arrived?
Chelsea’s chequebook was much smaller. It’s not even comparable, really. And Chelsea hadn’t been winning titles prior to Jose arriving, they were much less established than City were.
Compare the margins by which the opposition was outspent. Chelsea at the time spent multiples of their rivals, with a transfer deficit 4-5 times as large.
How much credit should he take for creating it though? He absolutely made some fantastic and gutsy decisions for their betterment but it's not like they were nobodies, they had already won the cl 3 years previously, made the semi the year before and in that year shouldn't have even been in the final in the first place.
In terms of his team building chops I found his city stint much more impressive than what he did at barca.
A lot. They finished 3rd 10 points behind runners up Villarreal (I'm not even going to talk about Madrid) just before Pep came in, ffs! And the fact that he made them that great is actually a testament to Pep's ability — it's more or less the same side from 2007/08 yet they suddenly became an all-conquering juggernaut.
Also, here's a side to side comparison of the side that won it in 2006 (that you use as an argument) and Pep's 2008/09 side. There's literally only 3 players left — the rest were replaced, including that side's greatest star by an enormous margin.
Valdes
Oleguer - Marquez - Puyol - van Bronckhorst
Edmilson
Deco - van Bommel
Giuly - Eto'o - Ronaldinho
Valdes
Sylvinho - Pique - Toure - Puyol
Busquets
Iniesta - Xavi
Henry - Eto'o - Messi
Roma drew to Servette yesterday.
This most recent managerial stint is also turning out to be largely unremarkable.
This most recent managerial stint is also turning out to be largely unremarkable.
If this was 2015 than this discussion would make sense, but Pep has evolved so much since than that he's in whole another league when it comes to Jose.
I agree with you in general but that's a little bit misleading. Xavi and Iniesta were both important players in Rijkaard's Barcelona but Xavi tore his ligament in 2005/06 so he missed half a season while Iniesta was on the bench in Paris and was brought on at half time. And of course Messi himself only missed out on the final because of injury.
Also also, Rafa Marquez was still there when Guardiola took over and only left in 2010.
Messi wasn't really a starter back then, he had 11 starts in the league and 4 in the CL that season. He was playing in the B team the year before.
Guardiola is the boogeyman. Jose is the person you call to kill the boogeyman. He is the football’s version of Baba Yaga.
Nah I meant at the peak of Klopp's powers. Because they were the same odds to win in 2019 as Mourinho's 'underdog' Inter were in 2010 at the start of the competition.
And as for Real Madrid in 2022 (not the 2014 one), they were more underdogs than Mourinho in the betting.
Jose has won 7 out of their 25 direct duels. He can't hold a candle to Klopp as the bogeyman killer.
Why do we talk about Liverpool and Inter during that time?
Before Klopp and Jose took over, they were big underdogs. And they took over, transcended the team to being more than that and made them into clubs where you can conceive of them winning big. Then they did win big.
It's like me saying Pep winning the CL last year wasn't a big deal because they weren't underdogs. Point is they weren't underdogs because of him. Before he came in to elevate their level, they were underdogs.
So when judging a manager I like to see how they elevated their status. I think both Jose and pep elevated their teams. But peak Jose did it with more challenging outfits, and he won Porto the CL after how many years? Inter the CL after how many years? Those two feats are massive.
Last seasons treble with City is massive for pep but I rate peak Jose's work more highly.
"There's nothing to pay. [Manchester City boss Pep] Guardiola can make people pay for these things. If he's not happy with someone, he says goodbye and brings in another. It's not a problem. We don't have that option here. Here we have a coach who has to keep hammering it in, working day after day trying to get the best out of these players.”
A quote from Jose after yesterday’s game.
Team Jose here BTW.
A quote from Jose after yesterday’s game.
Team Jose here BTW.
But the point was Inter weren't underdogs, they were the best team in Serie A because of Calciopoli, that's the point and they were 14/1 to the win the Champions League, hardly rank outsiders and about middle of the road for CL winners. They also weren't underdogs before Mourinho arrived, in 2007/08 they were actually lower odds to win the tournament. Inter were 14/1, by comparison Porto were 50/1 when the competition started. Inter last year getting to the final were underdogs, or Chelsea when they won it.
Porto were definitely underdogs. Inter that season weren't favourites like Real Madrid and Barcelona, but were among a group of possible winners.