Israel-Palestine | Genocide in Gaza

4bars said:
Just to understand, Does this tweet suggest that these outlets receive directives from 1 sources and how to post the articles or that are just lazy and copy each other?
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If 4 major publication plagiarised from each other. Then we should all stop watching/reading the news.
 
Giggsyking said:
If 4 major publication plagiarised from each other. Then we should all stop watching/reading the news.
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I agree. But plagiarism is much better than *put tinfoil hat on* some entity behind the scenes telling all of them what to put in an article verbatim.

Either way is fecking lazy not changing a coma on the publications
 
rotherham_red said:
Bearing in mind recent revelations at both NYT and the Guardian, are you happy to concede that the evidence of this occurring was flimsy to say the least?
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What revelations are you talking about?

I think the evidence is extensive enough to make it a certainty that Hamas used rape as a weapon of war. Just as certain as Israeli forces not giving a toss about civilian deaths in Gaza (and the West Bank) and probably often seeing them as a good thing.

You can think that Hamas are murderous rapists and terrorists, and also think Israeli forces are committing war crimes.
 
4bars said:
I agree. But plagiarism is much better than *put tinfoil hat on* some entity behind the scenes telling all of them what to put in an article verbatim.

Either way is fecking lazy not changing a coma on the publications
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It's not tinfoil hat really, most modern journalists are nothing more than stenographers. If they get told something from a political source they print it., especially in situations such as this where it would be very difficult to prove anyway.
 
Smores said:
It's not tinfoil hat really, most modern journalists are nothing more than stenographers. If they get told something from a political source they print it., especially in situations such as this where it would be very difficult to prove anyway.
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I agree that influence is there. I agree also that in important moments that the narrative has to be set, like with this conflict, there are more strict directives, but exact paragraphs, I want to think is lazy plagiarism
 
4bars said:
Just to understand, Does this tweet suggest that these outlets receive directives from 1 sources and how to post the articles or that are just lazy and copy each other?
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It pretty much stenographs IDF press releases/off the record statements verbatim. Which at the very least raises questions as to how much we can trust this record.
 
4bars said:
I agree that influence is there. I agree also that in important moments that the narrative has to be set, like with this conflict, there are more strict directives, but exact paragraphs, I want to think is lazy plagiarism
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Now, I'm no mathematician, but I'd suspect the odds of exact paragraphs and sentences being written for the same story across two different papers are going to be quite remote. If that was the case, we'd regularly see that same phenomena occurring in something like match reports of the same football fixture, but we rarely (if at all) do.
 
Wibble said:
What revelations are you talking about?

I think the evidence is extensive enough to make it a certainty that Hamas used rape as a weapon of war. Just as certain as Israeli forces not giving a toss about civilian deaths in Gaza (and the West Bank) and probably often seeing them as a good thing.

You can think that Hamas are murderous rapists and terrorists, and also think Israeli forces are committing war crimes.
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NYT pulling their episode of the Daily podcast because of intense internal debate regarding whether the instances of rape even happened.



Then there's the questions raised over the Guardian's article which was essentially a rehash of the NYT article.

I've got no issues with saying some terrible things occurred that day, but Hamas have literally never done some of the things that they were accused of. They aren't ISIS, and the accusations that they are have come from the Israelis, who also consider the UN as an institution to be antisemitic...
 
rotherham_red said:
I've got no issues with saying some terrible things occurred that day, but Hamas have literally never done some of the things that they were accused of. They aren't ISIS, and the accusations that they are have come from the Israelis, who also consider the UN as an institution to be antisemitic...
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The evidence isn't just from propaganda sources though. There are videos and photos of dead or dying women, half/totally naked and often bleeding from the groin, and enough independent evidence to make it far more than propaganda. Women weren't naked from the waist down and bleeding for no reason, before being killed. Which of course doesn't mean that the Israeli authorities won't exaggerate it even further (if this is possible) and use it to further inflame public opinion, so that they can continue to have more or less free reign in the Gaza offensive.
 
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Wibble said:
The evidence isn't just from propaganda sources though. There are videos and photos of dead or dying women, half/totally naked and often bleeding from the groin, and enough independent evidence to make it far more than propaganda. Women weren't naked from the waist down and bleeding for no reason, before being killed. Which of course doesn't mean that the Israeli authorities won't exaggerate it even further (if this is possible) and use it to further inflame public opinion, so that they can continue to have more or less free reign in the Gaza offensive.
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You seem to be more sure than the NYT who actually published the story. Can I ask why this is?
 
Wibble said:
The evidence isn't just from propaganda sources though. There are videos and photos of dead or dying women, half/totally naked and often bleeding from the groin, and enough independent evidence to make it far more than propaganda. Women weren't naked from the waist down and bleeding for no reason, before being killed. Which of course doesn't mean that the Israeli authorities won't exaggerate it even further (if this is possible) and use it to further inflame public opinion, so that they can continue to have more or less free reign in the Gaza offensive.
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I agree to a point. But I don't think anyone has actually seen these videos you know, we're always told about them and how horrible they are. There is also always a source who claims to have seen these videos or seen these crimes in person.

Alas those latter sources always end up recanting their story or changing it.

I don't doubt some of the crimes claimed were committed but the idea there was a mass campaign of it, including some ridiculous immature notions of "playing keepy uppy with a severed breast" is pure fantasy solely to justify the subsequent campaign of genocide as you mentioned (free reign etc).
 
Wibble said:
The evidence isn't just from propaganda sources though. There are videos and photos of dead or dying women, half/totally naked and often bleeding from the groin, and enough independent evidence to make it far more than propaganda. Women weren't naked from the waist down and bleeding for no reason, before being killed. Which of course doesn't mean that the Israeli authorities won't exaggerate it even further (if this is possible) and use it to further inflame public opinion, so that they can continue to have more or less free reign in the Gaza offensive.
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Murder on Zidane's Floor said:




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This is the issue, there's very few trustworthy independent sources for most events in this conflict. I certainly don't think it's unlikely that both sides will have committed rape because it always happens in conflicts, that doesn't make the reports anymore credible though. Perfectly possible its propaganda and other similar events did happen.

Painting the opposite side as barbarians who will rape and pillage has been going on since the dawn of time. It's an easy story to believe.
 


So UNRWA is the creation of US and Israel itself, never knew this, but I will need to double check on this.
 
Regarding UNRWA it is important to recognise that at least part of what is being criticised right now is not new. There have been controversies about textbooks for more than a decade. To what extent this agency is undermined by Hamas is difficult to say. It seems however evident that there is a clear political bias within the agency towards one side of the conflict.

Surely, the UN has enough resources that they could in cooperation with the ICRC come up with a more "neutral" aid agency for this conflict? In my view, it would be equally as intolerable and not in line with what the UN is supposed to be and do if the UNWRA was overwhelmingly pro-Israeli.
 
It's The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees.

If they aren't overwhelmingly pro-Palestinians, then there's something inherently wrong with them.
 
nimic said:
When are they going to have their "are we the baddies" moment?
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When the genocide is complete we'll have plenty of people telling us how it was a horrible mistake but they didn't know better at the time and now it's too late to make things right. They will be really sorry.
 
Idxomer said:
It's The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees.

If they aren't overwhelmingly pro-Palestinians, then there's something inherently wrong with them.
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I understand that sentiment, but they also work for the United Nations and therefore should be a bit more balanced in their approach. We will have to wait and see how big the Hamas influence actually ends up being, but at least from what I've read there has always been speculation that UN money ends up in Hamas' pockets - which is a tough look for the UN.
 
fecking hell, those hospital scenes are absolutely mind blowing.
 
Goldfiessli said:
I understand that sentiment, but they also work for the United Nations and therefore should be a bit more balanced in their approach. We will have to wait and see how big the Hamas influence actually ends up being, but at least from what I've read there has always been speculation that UN money ends up in Hamas' pockets - which is a tough look for the UN.
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Let's wait and see is a terrible approach when people are literally starving on the ground and all humanitarian organizations involved say this is one of the worst humanitarian catastrophes they've seen. In fact, I'd go even further and say than defunding this organization until we have all the info is basically helping israel with the ongoing genocide. These countries are complicit.
 
maniak said:
Let's wait and see is a terrible approach when people are literally starving on the ground and all humanitarian organizations involved say this is one of the worst humanitarian catastrophes they've seen. In fact, I'd go even further and say than defunding this organization until we have all the info is basically helping israel with the ongoing genocide. These countries are complicit.
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Again, I understand what you say, but the tough question that absolutely must be asked right now is how much of that UNWRA is going to the Palestinian people who suffer enormously (just to make this clear) and how much ends up in the pockets of Hamas?

I don't necessarily have a problem with these countries withholding financial aid to UNWRA if there is legitimate concern that this agency is no longer serving its purpose. What these countries should do however, is exploring alternative options as to how this money gets to the Palestinian people more efficiently.
 
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