History/Archaeology Thread

[Cheimoon]

Don't get me wrong, it's a really exciting piece of research - adding to a growing corpus of evidence for long lived and widespread complex societal settlement in the Amazonian basin. Just saying that the abandonment of these settled landscapes has nothing to do with European diseases like smallpox.

Also, while cities are relatively commonly abandoned/fail, they're also frequently incredibly long lived (whether continuously or in waves of resettlement and rebuilding), so when a previously (relatively) densely populated landscapes is pretty much completely abandoned (as is the case here, or as seen in the southern Maya Lowlands) it's actually quite unusual - which just adds to how interesting this all is!

Yeah, I agree on all counts. Also, if it's a really good spot for a city, people are bound to go back there eventually.

It's just a pity there are not more written sources (or maybe: not more understanding of unusual writing systems!) for South and Central America. Purely archaeological sources can only get you so far in understanding historical chains of events - and of course when all you have is LIDAR imagery, you really have next to no idea.

Is this a subject you've studied more? I'm really an absolutely layman in this.

 

[Tarrou]

But the Younger Dryas Impact is supposed to of happened around 13kya, whereas these new Amazonian "cities" (they're large, long lived, planned settlements - would need to see more evidence before I was comfortable calling them cities) date to around 500BCE-c.600CE - almost ten thousand years after the supposed Younger Dryas Impact.

I know. I was just explaining who he is. I even said in the next paragraph the theory doesn't fit but I guess you didn't read that far.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

Yeah, I agree on all counts. Also, if it's a really good spot for a city, people are bound to go back there eventually.

It's just a pity there are not more written sources (or maybe: not more understanding of unusual writing systems!) for South and Central America. Purely archaeological sources can only get you so far in understanding historical chains of events - and of course when all you have is LIDAR imagery, you really have next to no idea.

Is this a subject you've studied more? I'm really an absolutely layman in this.

Don’t sell the rest of NA short. There is still a lot to learn (or I wish we could learn) about cultures like the Mississippian and complex urban areas like Poverty Point.

 

[Cheimoon]

Don’t sell the rest of NA short. There is still a lot to learn (or I wish we could learn) about cultures like the Mississippian and complex urban areas like Poverty Point.

Oh, yeah, definitely! They're a bit separately in my mind somehow, but there's no real reason for that I suppose.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

Oh, yeah, definitely! They're a bit separately in my mind somehow, but there's no real reason for that I suppose.

To be fair, Mesoamerica has traditionally been a distinct area in these studies and SA is a whole different animal. And both had more permanent construction of stone for us to view.

I wish I had spent more time in Belize to see the Mayan stuff, and plan to go back eventually. Between Mayan ruins and one of the largest reefs around it’s a great destination.

 

[Cheimoon]

To be fair, Mesoamerica has traditionally been a distinct area in these studies and SA is a whole different animal. And both had more permanent construction of stone for us to view.

I wish I had spent more time in Belize to see the Mayan stuff, and plan to go back eventually. Between Mayan ruins and one of the largest reefs around it’s a great destination.

There are also geographic factors, cause the (overland) trip through Panama is very difficult from what I know, and north from Aztek Mexico you're in lot of desert-like land - although there were some complex societies in places like New Mexico (like the Pueblans - if that's the right word), so the latter doesn't really count I suppose.

 

[SecondFig]

Yeah, I agree on all counts. Also, if it's a really good spot for a city, people are bound to go back there eventually.

It's just a pity there are not more written sources (or maybe: not more understanding of unusual writing systems!) for South and Central America. Purely archaeological sources can only get you so far in understanding historical chains of events - and of course when all you have is LIDAR imagery, you really have next to no idea.

We can learn an awful lot more with further work which should allow greater understanding of their economy, their social structures, their trade and contact etc etc. A good comparative example would be the Indus Civilisation (in modern day Pakistan/India), whose script we've still not deciphered, meaning our understanding of their entire civilisation is purely archaeological.

Is this a subject you've studied more? I'm really an absolutely layman in this.

I'm an archaeologist who studies the emergence and failure of complex societies, but my geographical focus is South and South East Asia, so I'm not really that familiar with the S.American stuff - though it's absolutely fascinating, and would be an amazing place to do field-work.

 

[SecondFig]

I wish I had spent more time in Belize to see the Mayan stuff, and plan to go back eventually. Between Mayan ruins and one of the largest reefs around it’s a great destination.

I spent 6 months in Belize as an undergrad (back in 2002), had a great time!

 

[tenpoless]

I remember me first fossil, was walking down the road with Pokemon Go on and caught Omanyte.

 

[Jippy]

This is cool and not sure where else to post it. I love these ancient books and this lucky git bought it for £8,500 and it's now worth up to £1m as well.

Annotated version of Andreas Vesalius’s masterwork on human anatomy up for auction
https://www.theguardian.com/science...ed-masterwork-on-human-anatomy-up-for-auction

 

[Cheimoon]

We can learn an awful lot more with further work which should allow greater understanding of their economy, their social structures, their trade and contact etc etc. A good comparative example would be the Indus Civilisation (in modern day Pakistan/India), whose script we've still not deciphered, meaning our understanding of their entire civilisation is purely archaeological.

Yeah, totally agree, but I mean for developments like why a city disappears, archaeology is more limited. Although that's anyway when written sources stop as well, so what you'd need, is someone else writing about it!

I'm an archaeologist who studies the emergence and failure of complex societies, but my geographical focus is South and South East Asia, so I'm not really that familiar with the S.American stuff - though it's absolutely fascinating, and would be an amazing place to do field-work.

Interesting - anything east of Iran is a huge gap in my knowledge that I do have to start filling!

I have left academics now almost 10 years ago, but I used to be a historian myself, focusing on contacts in the eastern Mediterranean (Greece, Anatolia, Syria-Palestine primarily). That includes a lot of archaeology of course, since parts of the the period I studied, and specifically my subject, didn't have a lot of written sources. But I was rather a synthesist of other people's publications myself. And my background is Classics, so I didn't get a lot of exposure to other periods and regions of the world during my studies.

 

[2cents]

One of the most important of the series of "treaties" that produced British primacy in the 19th century Persian Gulf:

GENERAL TREATY EOR SUPPRESSING PIRACY AND SLAVE TRAFFIC: GREAT BRITAIN AND THE ARAB TRIBES IN THE PERSIAN GULF
8 January 1820

 

[2cents]

A late 15th century letter from the Mamluk Sultan to the Doge of Venice, apparently sent in response to previous correspondence from Venice concerning certain trading issues:

 

[Cheimoon]

A late 15th century letter from the Mamluk Sultan to the Doge of Venice, apparently sent in response to previous correspondence from Venice concerning certain trading issues:

Not knowing much about any of the historical context around this: what's interesting to you about this particular letter?

 

[2cents]

Not knowing much about any of the historical context around this: what's interesting to you about this particular letter?

I’ve been trying to find a non-paywalled link to John Wansbrough’s analysis of the letter to post here which gives the broader context and some details about the Italian translation of the Arabic, but in any case I think it’s an interesting and probably typical example of the normal state of affairs that prevailed between Muslim and Christian powers at a moment of relative equilibrium between them in the Mediterranean - there is clearly cooperation and formalized arrangements that frame the relationship which is primarily driven by trade (but also Cairo and Venice’s common hostility to the Ottomans); at the same time there is a subtle edge to the letter’s rhetoric which draws distinct lines between the Muslims and Christians and, naturally, emphasizes the superiority of the former. This is most explicitly expressed in the opening list of honorifics (which is very typical of those adopted by pre-modern Islamic rulers) and in the closing lines, but I think can be discerned throughout.

Wansbrough notes that the letter was sent in response to a complaint from Venice regarding the treatment of some of their merchants in Syria (then under Mamluk rule but close to the Ottoman-Mamluk frontier).

 

[flameinthesun]

A late 15th century letter from the Mamluk Sultan to the Doge of Venice, apparently sent in response to previous correspondence from Venice concerning certain trading issues:

All that's missing from the Sultan's intro is the First of His Name, King of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms, the Father of Dragons, the Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, the Unburnt, the Breaker of Chains

 

[Cheimoon]

I’ve been trying to find a non-paywalled link to John Wansbrough’s analysis of the letter to post here which gives the broader context and some details about the Italian translation of the Arabic, but in any case I think it’s an interesting and probably typical example of the normal state of affairs that prevailed between Muslim and Christian powers at a moment of relative equilibrium between them in the Mediterranean - there is clearly cooperation and formalized arrangements that frame the relationship which is primarily driven by trade (but also Cairo and Venice’s common hostility to the Ottomans); at the same time there is a subtle edge to the letter’s rhetoric which draws distinct lines between the Muslims and Christians and, naturally, emphasizes the superiority of the former. This is most explicitly expressed in the opening list of honorifics (which is very typical of those adopted by pre-modern Islamic rulers) and in the closing lines, but I think can be discerned throughout.

Wansbrough notes that the letter was sent in response to a complaint from Venice regarding the treatment of some of their merchants in Syria (then under Mamluk rule but close to the Ottoman-Mamluk frontier).

Thanks for the explanation.

I've probably mentioned this before, but I am pretty familiar with the El Amarna letters, a collection of (mostly) diplomatic correspondence fro the 14th century BCE between the Egyptian pharaoh and his equals (Hittite, Assyrian, Babylonian and Hurrian kings) and subordinated (Canaanite kings). It's all highly formulaic, coded language which seems to say very little if you're not used to the lingo, but reveals a lot about power dynamics and trade relationships once you start seeing through that textual layer. Very interesting, but it requries a bit of explanation - as I figured was the case here.

 

[2cents]

It's all highly formulaic, coded language which seems to say very little if you're not used to the lingo, but reveals a lot about power dynamics and trade relationships once you start seeing through that textual layer. Very interesting, but it requries a bit of explanation - as I figured was the case here.

Absolutely. Just in regards to the final phrase "And God is He who favours with His grace and his bounty, God be willing", Wansbrough writes "It was not uncommon for letters from Muslim to Christian rulers to include an ambiguous phrase which could be interpreted as a wish for the conversion of the Christian to Islam. It was usually altered or omitted altogether in translation." Apparently the Venetian scribe translated the phrase as "dio sia quello che ve convertissa" which google translate interprets as "God be the one who converts you"; so the scribe very much understood the coded language being used and, in this case, decided to express it in the most explicit sense.

 

[2cents]

@Cheimoon here is the Wansbrough article on the letter if you're interested - https://pdfhost.io/v/ORJ46H74x_A_Mamluk_Letter_of_8771473

 

[Cheimoon]

@Cheimoon here is the Wansbrough article on the letter if you're interested - https://pdfhost.io/v/ORJ46H74x_A_Mamluk_Letter_of_8771473

Thanks for sharing. I'll have to check it back later: I can't open it where I am now.

It's interesting that the scribe translated it so explicitly btw. Would everyone (at that time, obviously) have understood the original phrase that same way? Cause if not, the scribe potentially made that final sentence a good bit more inflammatory through that translation.

 

[2cents]

Would everyone (at that time, obviously) have understood the original phrase that same way?

That seems to be the case if I'm understanding Wansbrough correctly.

 

[oates]

Pretty harrowing but what about the Holocaust was not. If there's a better thread for this please let me know or copy and paste the article for me?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...os-tell-of-the-holocausts-upheaval-and-terror

 

[Cheimoon]

Pretty harrowing but what about the Holocaust was not. If there's a better thread for this please let me know or copy and paste the article for me?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...os-tell-of-the-holocausts-upheaval-and-terror

What scares me most about anything like this is how leaders can get entire police and military forces to just do their bidding - pretty much no matter how insane it (usually gradually) becomes.

I mean, look at any state anywhere in the world that's currently slowly descending into every-worsening oppression: do you ever hear about serious pushback from these forces against their increasingly oppressive role? Or if you do, it must be very rare.

And that's scary to me. We can all think we (as humanity) know better now, after the nazi regime and the holocaust - but I don't think we do.

 

[VorZakone]

What scares me most about anything like this is how leaders can get entire police and military forces to just do their bidding - pretty much no matter how insane it (usually gradually) becomes.

I mean, look at any state anywhere in the world that's currently slowly descending into every-worsening oppression: do you ever hear about serious pushback from these forces against their increasingly oppressive role? Or if you do, it must be very rare.

And that's scary to me. We can all think we (as humanity) know better now, after the nazi regime and the holocaust - but I don't think we do.

I feel like there's too little discussion on this. How does this process happen? Do we have historical examples of police/military pushing back?

 

[Cheimoon]

I feel like there's too little discussion on this. How does this process happen? Do we have historical examples of police/military pushing back?

I suppose you could say Turkey has had various instance of this in the 20th century, where the military intervened when they felt the government straying too far from Atatürk's intentions with Turkey. I don't know too much about this, but someone else probably has more detail. But then - is that desirable? That the military kicks out the elected leaders? But what's the alternative?

I mean, just plain subordination (not carrying out clearly racist orders - as you would for example definitely get if the PVV really got their way in the Netherlands, or the AfD in Germany) might not help much either, cause the police and military could just fire the relevant people and bring in those that don't mind carrying out these orders - or the government will replace the military leaders.

You can also see the same in bureaucratic levels btw - in a way, the Postal Office scandal in the UK and the benefits scandal in the Netherlands could be seen as obviously wrong policies being implemented entirely consistently by bureaucrats who didn't care how their work hurt people. (Maybe the UK example doesn't work here; I am not entirely sure.) But there, too - how do you fight bad decisions by a normally elected government without going into 'deep state' discussions or some sort of uprising? Or is an uprising what you want?

Ultimately, the best solution might be to find ways to better inform people so governments that want to make these sorts of decisions are never elected to power. But I suppose that's a bit of a pipe dream, and anyway doesn't help when that kind of government already is in power.

 

[oates]

What scares me most about anything like this is how leaders can get entire police and military forces to just do their bidding - pretty much no matter how insane it (usually gradually) becomes.

I mean, look at any state anywhere in the world that's currently slowly descending into every-worsening oppression: do you ever hear about serious pushback from these forces against their increasingly oppressive role? Or if you do, it must be very rare.

And that's scary to me. We can all think we (as humanity) know better now, after the nazi regime and the holocaust - but I don't think we do.

Follow an existing chain of power - believe you are a lonely unique actor. Say nothing but, go with the flow.

Chain of Command had already been bought by what was readily available and what would be. Take a look at Nazi captured property and fine art maybe.

 

[2cents]

What scares me most about anything like this is how leaders can get entire police and military forces to just do their bidding - pretty much no matter how insane it (usually gradually) becomes.

Arendt wrote a bit about this in Eichmann in Jerusalem and The Origins of Totalitarianism. I won't pretend to have a full understanding of her case, but she claimed that the Nazis maintained a crucial distinction between the "movement" and the state, with the former retaining primacy and never being fully absorbed by the latter, with the result that "All real power is vested in the institutions of the movement, and outside the state and military apparatuses. It is inside the movement, which remains the center of action of the country, that all decisions are made; the official civil services are often not even informed of what is going on..." In this division, the secret police rather than the military serves as the movement's instrument of coercion. She also stresses the warped nature of the understanding of "legality" in totalitarian states, with notions of "right" and "wrong" completely subordinated to the will of the leader, the only reliable measure of lawfulness. Thus Eichmann could legitimately claim to have broken no laws in executing orders, or in the case when he defied written orders received from Himmler by arguing they defied the higher, unwritten will of Hitler.

I'm aware there is a lot of controversy and pushback concerning her arguments but I can't say much about it.

 

[Cheimoon]

Arendt wrote a bit about this in Eichmann in Jerusalem and The Origins of Totalitarianism. I won't pretend to have a full understanding of her case, but she claimed that the Nazis maintained a crucial distinction between the "movement" and the state, with the former retaining primacy and never being fully absorbed by the latter, with the result that "All real power is vested in the institutions of the movement, and outside the state and military apparatuses. It is inside the movement, which remains the center of action of the country, that all decisions are made; the official civil services are often not even informed of what is going on..." In this division, the secret police rather than the military serves as the movement's instrument of coercion. She also stresses the warped nature of the understanding of "legality" in totalitarian states, with notions of "right" and "wrong" completely subordinated to the will of the leader, the only reliable measure of lawfulness. Thus Eichmann could legitimately claim to have broken no laws in executing orders, or in the case when he defied written orders received from Himmler by arguing they defied the higher, unwritten will of Hitler.

I'm aware there is a lot of controversy and pushback concerning her arguments but I can't say much about it.

I don't think you even need that though. It's obviously a way to relatively quickly and securely concentrate all (actual) power in the hands of your followers, but I'm not sure if would be that different if everything had been organized through existing channels in Germany.

I mean, it's an interesting analysis and comparable to developments in other times and countries (e.g., special, trusted military units getting all kinds of responsabilities, such as the Revolutionary Guard in Iran) - but I'm not sure it changes the perspective of my post.

 

[2cents]

I don't think you even need that though. It's obviously a way to relatively quickly and securely concentrate all (actual) power in the hands of your followers, but I'm not sure if would be that different if everything had been organized through existing channels in Germany.

I mean, it's an interesting analysis and comparable to developments in other times and countries (e.g., special, trusted military units getting all kinds of responsabilities, such as the Revolutionary Guard in Iran) - but I'm not sure it changes the perspective of my post.

Yeah, in fairness there’s a lot more to her argument but I’m hesitant to get into it without really knowing what I’m on about.

 

[horsechoker]

Married his aunt and had an affair with his niece

 

[calodo2003]

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[RedDevilQuebecois]

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I hope this finally will put a proper closure to this decades-long mystery.

 

[711]

I hope this finally will put a proper closure to this decades-long mystery.

I wonder what makes them think it's her plane and not one of the hundreds downed in WW2?

 

[VorZakone]

Conversation between Bismarck and Ulysses Grant.

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[2cents]

A proposed map of the fabled Round City of Baghdad drawn up by the British orientalist Guy Le Strange in his 1900 publication Baghdad during the Abbasid Caliphate:

As no trace of the Round City survives today, and no archaeological excavations have as of yet been conducted at the probable site in modern-day Baghdad, Le Strange drafted this map on the basis of several Arabic literary sources, all of which date to the period after the Round City declined and deteriorated. I was surprised to learn that it only remained the centre of Abbasid Baghdad for a period of roughly 50 years (AD 763-813), after which it was largely abandoned by the dynasty following the infamous civil war of the two brothers, Al-Amin and Al-Mamun, with court life in Baghdad shifting across to the east bank of the Tigris.

In terms of the Round City's location in modern-day Baghdad, Le Strange states that the shrine of Maruf al-Karkhi "lay outside the Basrah Gate of the Round City" (#5 on the map above in the southeast corner of the Round City), and suggests that, given his estimated distances of 2,500 yards from gate to gate around the external wall (so a circumference of 10,000 yards), and 3,200 yards diameter for the Round City as a whole, we can get a very good idea of its fixed location.

 

[2cents]

Here's my attempt to place it in the modern city. Have to assume the Tigris has shifted its course over the centuries:

 

[2cents]

Just came across this, not into gaming at all but it looks like an incredible reconstruction of the city:

 

[Cheimoon]

Just came across this, not into gaming at all but it looks like an incredible reconstruction of the city:

I've never played these games, but Assassin's Creed apparently also has educative versions of their games set in ancient Greece and Egypt (maybe also Viking society), that are actually used in schools. Quite cool as an idea.

 

[the_cliff]

I've never played these games, but Assassin's Creed apparently also has educative versions of their games set in ancient Greece and Egypt (maybe also Viking society), that are actually used in schools. Quite cool as an idea.

Yeah they're called origins and odyssey. They actually did a good job of bringing those ancient cities to life in the game. They even hired a historian Dr. Stéphanie-Anne Ruatta that works for ubisoft (The game developers) full time.

 

[2cents]

I've never played these games, but Assassin's Creed apparently also has educative versions of their games set in ancient Greece and Egypt (maybe also Viking society), that are actually used in schools. Quite cool as an idea.

That’s something for me to look into, might be a good way to get students interested at least superficially. Seems in this Baghdad version there is a “History” feature built into the game itself rather than existing separately.