I am very very sure that in all of europe we can at least get decent senior striker, a non moronic LWB and a midfieder who can do some running, all on loan. Do something.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Problem with Rashford is he relies on speed and I think that has dropped off a bit, but the big thing with wingers is they have to be productive, either with assists and goals, prefably both. Ideally they also have to be capable of tracking back when needed. You cannot carry lots of players who are not willing or able to do that.
https://fbref.com/en/squads/19538871/Manchester-United-Stats#all_stats_gca
Please Open Fbref and look at all the stats before and after Ruben's tenure. Also, compare us to other top 4/6/8 teams. It's a rough watch, the stats back how bad we have been and also show where we have to aim for for the next half of the season. Thing is we can finish 15th or 5th. That you have to accept.
Please Open Fbref and look at all the stats before and after Ruben's tenure. Also, compare us to other top 4/6/8 teams. It's a rough watch, the stats back how bad we have been and also show where we have to aim for for the next half of the season. Thing is we can finish 15th or 5th. That you have to accept.
I am not doubting him, this has happened too many times, eventually the current players have to be looked at.
I don't think I've ever completely disagreed with someone so often as I have with Howson. Wasn't he vehemently defending ETH right until the very end as well?
That was Goldbridge I think. The situation had gone so silly on that front that at one point people were calling his channel the United SEG
Stretford Paddock also did.
3 loan signings for 3 key positions, in January no less? We might be able to bring in one loanee in the Weghorst mould but we'd be working miracles for anything beyond that.
Got to say. I really really like Amorim but i hate this formation.
It's a big risk ploughing another few hundred million in to specialist players to suit such a niche formation. I hope the recruitment does have one eye on the fact that if Amorim fails there is a 99% chance the next manager goes back to some variation of a 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 and we should have players capable of that.
God I hope he gets it right but I do have worries about 3 at the back in the PL.
It's a big risk ploughing another few hundred million in to specialist players to suit such a niche formation. I hope the recruitment does have one eye on the fact that if Amorim fails there is a 99% chance the next manager goes back to some variation of a 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 and we should have players capable of that.
God I hope he gets it right but I do have worries about 3 at the back in the PL.
It’s not a niche formation though. More and more teams are playing it now. And the idea that you sign specialist players who can only play this formation and no other doesn’t make any sense at all. Good footballers can play many different formations. They’re not being asked to play a different sport!
You can argue those were Ineo's approved signings. It's well documented ten hag wanted to keep Mctominay and didn't even start Ugarte.
Yoro was definitely an ineos signing so was Ugarte and Zirkee, debatable with Mazrarious as he had previously worked with Ten Hag.
However there is no denying Ten wasted near to a billion on overpriced sub standard players and has done untold damage to the club to the point it's disgusting
He did, but it was sanctioned by the previous regime, they are as guilty as him.
Heck, it probably started with LVG.
I can see a lot of good things that he’s brought to the team but until we sort out the issue of conceding first every game we will continue to put ourselves in a tough position.
Every game we concede the first goal either to a set piece or a mistake. If we could get the first goal then we could have more control as we did in the Everton game. What happens is when we concede we obviously open up more and look more likely to score but the other team now has gaps and the margins between a 1-1 and a 2-0 become very small.
The attack gets a lot of blame and rightly so because it’s dreadful but our defence as constructed isn’t built for games where we are chasing. Our defence is good when we are solid and compact but the second the game stretches, our defenders get exposed.
The unfortunate thing for Amorim is a lot better of the good work gets undone with these losses. This team doesn’t really have any margin for error, yet keeps on making errors.
This team needs to score first to consistently win games in the league. We got away with it at City but I believe teams know if they score first against us they can get more because of the mentality of our team.
Every game we concede the first goal either to a set piece or a mistake. If we could get the first goal then we could have more control as we did in the Everton game. What happens is when we concede we obviously open up more and look more likely to score but the other team now has gaps and the margins between a 1-1 and a 2-0 become very small.
The attack gets a lot of blame and rightly so because it’s dreadful but our defence as constructed isn’t built for games where we are chasing. Our defence is good when we are solid and compact but the second the game stretches, our defenders get exposed.
The unfortunate thing for Amorim is a lot better of the good work gets undone with these losses. This team doesn’t really have any margin for error, yet keeps on making errors.
This team needs to score first to consistently win games in the league. We got away with it at City but I believe teams know if they score first against us they can get more because of the mentality of our team.
It is the most frustrating thing about the sorry bunch. Any time we make any kind of mistake in a game, you know it's going to become an ongoing weakness sometimes for the entire rest of the season. Even if they were perfectly fine before.
Likewise if the mood towards the game from the media/fans is negative, 90% of the time you know that instead of coming out with their sleeves rolled up, they'll come out and be twice as tentative. Or start positively but then go into surrender mode the second anything goes wrong.
It happened in Amorim's first game. I said he needs to figure it out but that's unfair on him. Figuring it out is really easy. Working out how to stop it without nuking the entire season is another matter.
Usually the better managers imo stop it by forcing players to be better and to hate losing so much they either start swimming or give up completely...but with this lot that could leave you with a squad of about 4 players...and I'd struggle to name which 4.
Then why employ him....
The board knew he will only play this formation, the choice to back him or not was made then. Why on earth would you have one on eye on him failing.
Players have to be versatile these days.
Conte won the prem with 3 at the back. Formation isn't the problem.
Love the argument that other managers would suit this squad more in terms of formation etc.
This squad is terrible. Bringing in a manager that suits a terrible squad is probably the worst thing you could do.
Pretty stupid to blame the manager until he’s had opportunity to bring in players that suit his style.
This squad is terrible. Bringing in a manager that suits a terrible squad is probably the worst thing you could do.
Pretty stupid to blame the manager until he’s had opportunity to bring in players that suit his style.
Interesting to see a few people calling out the manager now, but those some posters gave every excuse possible for ETH's failures.
Anyways, I think our performances have improved a good amount under Amorim. The results have been hit and miss, but the performances have been fairly consistent and good.
Yes, we concede too many goals, but since the first game under his reign, we've been the better side in every game. Growing pains for me. I see an imprint and the vision.
We have a few duds in the squad who should never play PL football and in general, this squad lacks athleticism.
ETH did so much damage to this side.
Anyways, I think our performances have improved a good amount under Amorim. The results have been hit and miss, but the performances have been fairly consistent and good.
Yes, we concede too many goals, but since the first game under his reign, we've been the better side in every game. Growing pains for me. I see an imprint and the vision.
We have a few duds in the squad who should never play PL football and in general, this squad lacks athleticism.
ETH did so much damage to this side.
It's still niche. Which other top teams play 3 at the back every week?
And I'm not sure I agree on the players not being specialist either, If they weren't specialists then why are we talking about needing to sign players to suit the new formation?
Not saying it can't work though, and if It can I think Amorim has a good of a chance as anybody.
Because we have utter dross in certain positions? Whether we played a 343 or 433 we’d still need to upgrade that LB position.
I assume that’s a joke…
That’s my point. I don’t agree with this obsession with signing players specifically for this formation. We just need to sign good footballers. Which would make a nice change!
This fixation from fans with the 3-4-3 is odd. Most teams build with 3 at the back now, so do we, when we defend sometimes we defend in a 4-4-2 (when Amad was playing wing back) like most teams do and sometimes we defend with a flat 5 which is pretty common too, we’ve even seen Arsenal defend with a back 6 this season.
I don’t think it matters what formation we play, we do not have players who run relentlessly, win tackles and headers, take players on and score goals. You can do whatever you want but you are not winning any league titles with the types of players we have now.
I don’t think it matters what formation we play, we do not have players who run relentlessly, win tackles and headers, take players on and score goals. You can do whatever you want but you are not winning any league titles with the types of players we have now.
I agree but there are left backs such as Alonso who is/was a proper LWB specialist designed for 3 at the back and can't play as a 4. I'd avoid players like this.
I do think we can sign top quality players, improve the squad, back the manager but still have one eye in mitigating the risk of Amorim not being a success.
Back him but don't put all eggs in one basket. Just seems sensible to me. That's what we should have done with all our managers.
Yeah, it's the formation's fault that we don't have creativity in the wings, players who can receive the ball on the half-turn between the lines, tempo-setters in the midfield and designated goalscorers who don't rely on purple patches and/or everything being served on a plate for them. Amorim will leave and die by how competent United will be in the market in the next few windows.
Apart from the wingbacks what's so specialist about the players roles?
The two midfielders. What's so different in this system from when they're in a 4213?
Surely something not true is deniable?
I agree this formation should be a success in the modern game. We just have too many deficiencies, having not really upgraded at left back or right back since we bought Diego Dalot under Jose. Thats pretty massive given the system really relies on wingbacks to work well.
Yh it’s not something I can be arsed to work out, I was just thinking is every team we play coming away with a +1 or +2 for example. That piece was written just after Arsenal beat us with two set piece goals and the gap between them and the 7th best team is 2. It’s a very small range of values.
The added issue is teams then start to get it into their heads we are poor, and then more balls are put into the box and therefore more chances are created that way.
Had a nightmare yesterday from start to finish.
I wonder if he might ditch the 3-4-3. Until he gets some proper wing backs. Dalot, Malacia even Maz just not quick enough to hold the width. We need 3 signings in January or its a bottom half finish. Fans need patience. Still think the football has improved from Ten Hag. Its just poor decision making and individual errors why results are still inconsistent. Martinez is also struggling as the left CB think its time to switch him into the middle as the one who steps into midfield.
We don't need to sign a left wingback to suit the formation. We need to because we don't have a capable availabe left back in the squad at all who could play either formation.
Early days but I’m not seeing it yet.
He’s trying to give more control but that’s hard to do without raising the floor of the team, either by being hard to stop or hard to beat. Possession counts for little if we’re soft at both ends simultaneously.
For me, the number one sign of a good Utd manager (or any attacking manager) is if he can get the attackers and fullbacks firing, even if they’re average. Once he can do that, we know he can be backed to improve incoming transfers.
In any case, we’ve bet the house on him and his 3-4-3. Let’s hope he can show something without needing 22 of his own players.
He’s trying to give more control but that’s hard to do without raising the floor of the team, either by being hard to stop or hard to beat. Possession counts for little if we’re soft at both ends simultaneously.
For me, the number one sign of a good Utd manager (or any attacking manager) is if he can get the attackers and fullbacks firing, even if they’re average. Once he can do that, we know he can be backed to improve incoming transfers.
In any case, we’ve bet the house on him and his 3-4-3. Let’s hope he can show something without needing 22 of his own players.
I think if you stack the squad with players like Nypan León Yoro and Kone (and Rasmus /Amad previously) while it’s not going to instantly win you the league it is giving any new manager a lot more tactical flexibility and backup than any previous manager has enjoyed if he can get them playing. By signing lots of breakout players it’s easier to keep the wage bill down and be ready to pounce when someone truly special in their prime becomes available. You can always pick up or keep professional and hard working older players to guide younger players but you can’t keep missing out on the top future players on great deals over and over and just buy for a certain managers philosophy and expect to not have to rebuild every time there is a change of manager. I think this is one thing INEOS are correctly addressing. Getting a coach who sets pressing traps and who has a record of improving players is another. Let’s see what they do in January and in the summer. I’m not a huge fan of this formation either, I said that when he came. What’s the point in having 3 defenders if they can’t keep a clean sheet and we can’t score enough goals either.
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Can set up whatever formation you like, and can have whatever head coach you like, but when you have a set of players who can't deal with any adversity and then don't have enough goals to dig you out of trouble you are in trouble over a season.
While that would traditionally be true, it's worth noting that most of the managers we were linked with to replace Ten Hag have played some variation of three at the back previously, either some or all of the time. Amorim, Tuchel, Frank, Alonso, Inzaghi, Southgate, Naglesmann, etc. Plus other managers who weren't linked to us, like Glasner at Palace or Gasperini at Atalanta.
And that's not counting rarer, more infrequent uses of the formation for specific games too. As per an article on the Premier League's website, "only five of 20 Premier League clubs did not start a single match with a three-man defence in 2023/24".
Would be good to just see us defend well to start.
I'm happy with nearly everything apart from our set pieces to be honest. That needs sorting very quickly and we definitely have the personnel to not be the worst team at defending them.
Our overall play looks better we're just in that early stage where things haven't clicked and mistakes are being made. A few signings and we'll go far.
Our overall play looks better we're just in that early stage where things haven't clicked and mistakes are being made. A few signings and we'll go far.
Sorry but the owners have done the same mistake the glazers and woodward made, they are hopping from manager to a completely different system to another, van gaal was the complete of opposite of moyes and then after two years of trying to lay down foundations and style but then ripped all that up and went to another extreme in mourinho.
We have done the same all over again with ten hag system and players to amorim system and the players he needs and we straight back to square one of another bloody 5 year squad rebuild.
Its never ending with this incompetent club, we should have brought in a manger that could have produced an evolution with what we have instead of a revolution, someone like emery should have been who we had gone for, just look at a competent club like Liverpool who have done a smooth transition from klopp successful reign to further evolving as a side under slot, they specifically choose somone that fitted well with the player personnel and formation.
We have done the same all over again with ten hag system and players to amorim system and the players he needs and we straight back to square one of another bloody 5 year squad rebuild.
Its never ending with this incompetent club, we should have brought in a manger that could have produced an evolution with what we have instead of a revolution, someone like emery should have been who we had gone for, just look at a competent club like Liverpool who have done a smooth transition from klopp successful reign to further evolving as a side under slot, they specifically choose somone that fitted well with the player personnel and formation.
Even back four systems have a 3 at the back build-out shape now at top teams, with one of the full-backs inverting. It's a viable way of playing but you need the right players for it. The killers for us right now are no proper wing backs and slow CBs with mediocre ball carrying ability. Oh and a shit attack.
Exactly. It's not some obscure formation that is only used by Amorim. Actually some of the most impressive teams of recent years like Atalanta, Inter and Leverkusen have used it frequently.