The Overlap | Trent Booed & Gary Can’t Watch United Anymore? | The Overlap Fan Debate
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He’s not been for sale and is happy at the club, plenty would be interested. Clubs are interested in players who take a season off to find themselves like Sancho , I’m sure they’d be interested in a more productive , consistent player like Bruno.
How can you not fault him at least for a bit when he's Man Utd's captain and we're 15th on the table? In the last year and a half he has been very inconsistent and he had as much as poor performances as he had the good ones. In 2021/22 Ronaldo and De Gea were practically carrying UTD and UTD finished 6th and people still wanted De Gea and Ronaldo gone.
People said that Ronaldo was the "problem" even though he bailed us out in so many matches. I was fine with that because he didn't fit the system and no player is above the club, so we got rid of him. But what has Bruno done so much to get this kind of praise and protection?
I like Bruno but he shouldn't be a captain. If we want to rebuild the club, we need a better leader than him and we should sell him if the right price comes in.
Because he is one man and he pretty much always leaves everything on the pitch. You can't fault players for having bad patches. You can fault them for not giving their all.
Ronaldo wasn't carrying United, he was clearly causing issues with our all around play and he selfishness regardless of situation. His behaviour was also horrendously unprofessional at the time and he was on a silly wage. DDG was again on a silly wage and couldn't play out from the back like every top keeper does these days.
Captains don't do as much as you seem to think they do. Bruno isn't even a small part of the reason we have been so shit for years. I am not against selling any of our players if the right offer comes in and I don't care if he is captain or not. He is not even on the first page of our problems at the moment.
There is no doubt that your Keane would have them higher than 14th. Hated him. But he was a captain in every sense of the word. He would have dragged them up and put out fires.
And who is that in this team?
If someone answers Maguire, I will genuinely get annoyed.
Magwire.
"Because he is one man and he pretty much always leaves everything on the pitch".
It's not enough, he's a captain for Man Utd for crying out loud. Where are his leadership skills or authority on the pitch? No one in the dressing room is listening to Bruno Fernandes. When Ronaldo and Rooney were young they were literally listening and learning from the players like Keane, Scholes and Giggs. There was this famous story where young Ronaldo wouldn't pass to Van Nistelrooy in the training and Ruud shouted and humiliated young Cristiano. Ronaldo went back to the dressing room and cried like a little baby. That got to the head of Ronaldo and for the rest of his United career he would stop being a dribbling merchant and he started to pass the ball to Ruud and Saha. Do you think that young players like Garnacho and Hojlund are really listening to Bruno or are they a bit afraid of him. Of course, not.
"Ronaldo wasn't carrying United, he was clearly causing issues with our all around play and he selfishness regardless of situation". He did save us so many times, and remember he was 36. We were trailing behind Norwich (the worst team in the league) and he scored a hattrick to save us from losing to Norwich at home. He also scored a hattrick against Spurs as well. In the Champions league group stages, we literally went through because of him. The late clutch winning goals against Villareal and Atalanta home, and that ridiculous volley out of nowhere to secure a draw in Italy and the first place in the group. He had the better goals per game stats than the likes of prime Kane and Salah in that season. And what's worse he didn't get any service and we still had the likes of Bruno and Pogba in midfield.
"His behaviour was also horrendously unprofessional at the time". He was a serial winner and he came to United to win trophies. Remember, we brought Varane, Sancho and him to be the Premier League title contenders. When he left United for the first time to Real, Utd was the best team in Europe and much better side than Real Madrid btw. Whatever you think of his antics, it's undeniable that he was one of the few players who had this desire to win major trophies.
"Captains don't do as much as you seem to think they do. Bruno isn't even a small part of the reason we have been so shit for years". Yes, they are. United would be a much worse side, if it weren't for Keane and his brilliant leadership skills. Keane instilled fear and authority to Man Utd locker room and Bruno possesses none of these qualities. Keane will be forever remember for this moment and that's why he was a brilliant captain. We were trailing behind 2-0 in the semis of 1999 UCL against the star studded Juventus, and Man Utd needed 3 goals to advance to the finals. His midfield mastery for the next 60 minutes helped us to make a comeback and win 3-2. He gave a boost to a side that looked beaten and demoralized and he took the match to his hands even though he wasn't the best player of UTD at that time. That's what real captains do. They take responsibility for the bad results and try to set up the standards. Anytime UTD lost during the Fergie years, any Man Utd captain would be furious and shouting at the players. Now, when we draw 2:2 against Everton, we celebrate like we won EPL title.
If you want to look at a real captain and a captain that has a huge influence on the team, it's Virgil Van Dijk in Liverpool. He's a natural born leader and Liverpool is brilliant and stable because of him. The most important thing for a captain is to do a couple of things: 1) have great leadership skills 2) be an authority on the pitch 3) instill big standards for the club and the dressing room 4) be respected and feared by the opposition teams. Great captains of the big clubs in the past included the players like: Puyol at Barcelona, Terry in Chelsea, Ramos in Madrid and Tony Adams for Arsenal. We went from having Cantona, Keane, Neville and Vidic as captains to Young, Maguire and Fernandes. Those names alone tell you how far have we fallen as a team...
That's the biggest problem of modern Man Utd. We don't really have any leaders in the dressing room and that's been a problem for years now. Our last three captains were Young, Maguire and Fernandes. The last great Man Utd was Nemanja Vidic and it's not a coincidence that was our last successful period. Captains of the clubs often reflect the state of the clubs, and nothing screams as "failure" more when your captains are the likes of Young and Maguire. If I had to choose, I would pick Licha Martinez to be the captain of this squad.
Some say that Ugarte is a captain material as well. The best modern captain in the EPL is Virgil Van Dijk and we need that kind of a natural born leader in the UTD squad. Nothing against Bruno as a player, but I don't believe that he has those kind of natural leadership skills that captains are supposed to have. Amorim as a new coach should see and decide who is going to be a captain next season. Maybe we will buy a center back or a midfielder who can be a leader in the dressing room and on the pitch and he'll eventually become a new captain for Man Utd.
I love Keane but that was a ludicrous rant from him. Did anyone else catch the pure rage in his eyes during the rant as well? I have no doubt that it was a personal attack just from looking at that. He absolutely detests Bruno and I don’t understand why.
Happy to see that the majority of us have taken Bruno’s side though. Keane being a United legend gives him absolutely no right to slander our best player and the one man in our team who genuinely cares about our current plight.
Happy to see that the majority of us have taken Bruno’s side though. Keane being a United legend gives him absolutely no right to slander our best player and the one man in our team who genuinely cares about our current plight.
Keane is obviously the best United captain and leader during my time supporting United but it doesn't mean we should accept everything he says or do without question. Also can't see him going back to management with a big club, would be having go at players on weekly basis haha.
Plus I'm already fed up seeing our ex-players on screen now always talking about the glory days
Plus I'm already fed up seeing our ex-players on screen now always talking about the glory days
Agree about Ronaldo and his ill behaviour
Agree about captains not doing as much and that Bruno is down the list of problems when we have Onana, Dalot, Casemiro, Eriksen, Hojlund stinking up the place
Bruno however, as the elite player in the squad, on elite player wages isn’t doing enough. Yes he leaves everything on the pitch. But so could you. Running around and chasing after players doesn’t make you a good player. Although i also concede it would be nice if others shared his tenacity.
It’s his G/A (from open play) and in particular his ball retention that really concern me and as captain I believe he should have the self awareness that perhaps he should look after the ball a bit more rather than some of the silly things we see whilst in difficult situations. His in game management is terrible when we’re chasing games when he’s trying Rabona crosses. Outside of boot crosses. Shooting in anger. Gifting possession in dangerous areas…and then shows the audacity to swing his arms at others for their short comings.
He is of course a talented player. I don’t think he’s at the levels of Utd players in years gone by but he clearly has high ability. And it’s more frustrating because I believe if he wasn’t in such a rush to progress the ball and instead showed a bit more composure, he’d raise his game back to the levels we saw in that first 18 months. He’s showing no signs of doing that though
I think Fernandes is the worst ‘best player’ United have had since the 80s. He’s a very good player, capable of quality. But he’s not good enough to be the fulcrum of the side nor is his temperament quite strong enough for the responsibilities he is burdened with. Bit like Coutinho. Liverpool’s issue in that period was he was the ‘go to’ guy to dig Liverpool out. The side didn’t take the next step until Liverpool had proper leaders all over the pitch. Feenades should adorn a good team rather than be the basis of creativity, tenacity and influence.
100%.
Good point. But the Liverpool example also shows how difficult it is to prevent such situations. Liverpool has been in a comparable situation with Steven Gerrard not too long ago. Yet the Coutinho situation developed the way it did. Thats the thing - it obviously is enticing to try to make the most use of a very good player. And probably it makes sense more often than not. But there is a danger of clinging to it longer than it is good for the team. The move from Mbappe to Real also ended in PSG playing differently and according to understat, they are on around 70 xG today in the league while they ended up with 72 xG for the whole of last season. Don't get me wrong, this is not me saying, get rid of Bruno to unlock the team, I don't think, this would happen to United. This is only me saying that some fans crossed the line to being a little too dogmatic about intertwining Bruno with the fate of Manchester United. I can see the reasoning behind it and I'd definitely keep it in my in my decisions but it feels like some people are boxing themselves in, seeing things only in black and white.
Gerrard was capable of carrying the burden though. He elevated Liverpool considerably. But obviously much better overall.
Yep, he's a nutcase.
Great player no doubt but when you hear stories of his management career, he just comes across as a massive tit.
Again it’s easy to say that when he played in the team that he played in with the manager he had as well, he did get relegated with Nottingham Forrest so this idea that he’d inevitably drag a team up a table is a tad far fetched, he was incredible, probably my favourite ever United player, but he didn’t achieve success on his own and if he was in this current United team with the shit show it’s become he might find it difficult too.
The only one I've actually enjoyed watching from start to finish was when it was Evra, Rooney, Neville and Wright. It was a fascinating insight into some of the untold stories from the Fergie years. Talking about how if it wasn't for Carlos Queiroz then we wouldn't have knocked out Barca in 08.
I've tried several other episodes but lasted less than 15 minutes before realising I'm uninterested.
I agree with what you said except the part about Ronaldo. I think the main point is we shouldn't of bought Ronaldo. It was a huge mistake. He had no legs left. And we where playing a fast transition, low block. Wrong player for the tactics. We had to change for Ronaldo. So of course he will score some goals. But overall it was a disaster. After telling Cavani he would be the main man and convinced him to stay we sign Ronaldo and completely upset the dynamics of the squad. Worst signing ever. Also very unprofessional. I've never seen anyone act like he did. He could of been a legend at United. But he burned the bridge. Not once, but twice. Amazing!
Talked about Luke Shaw a bit and his injury.
Yeah it wasn't a typical Keane rant where more whiney and somewhat tongue-in-cheek as he leans into that persona, here he was genuinely angry.
Whilst Bruno can be petulant in the moment when he doesn't get decisions go his way, for the most part I think he's a very good captain personally and the ONLY candidate at the club right now.
I don't really know what Keane's seeing because he appears to be very vocal, instruct players well, he works hard on and off the ball, plays every week and he's usually United's best player. What more does he want?
IMO Keane is simply not a serious pundit.
He is there for soundbites, humour, to play his ‘angry man’ routine to the max etc.
His punditry often involves repeating a limited set of buzzwords like ‘character’, ‘leadership’, ‘desire’ etc., and he rarely if ever says anything insightful from a tactical perspective.
He is there for soundbites, humour, to play his ‘angry man’ routine to the max etc.
His punditry often involves repeating a limited set of buzzwords like ‘character’, ‘leadership’, ‘desire’ etc., and he rarely if ever says anything insightful from a tactical perspective.
I finally listened to it and after reading about it on here and other places, I thought it might be a bit tame, the usual old man yelling at cloud Keane rant... but not at all. I was genuinely surprised at the level of anger and vitriol displayed by Keane. It genuinely makes no sense - even if you don't particularly like Bruno as a player, or are annoyed by his antics, of all the things to get furious about with Utd these days, he's very very low on that list. Frankly bizarre.
The general point about our ex-players in the media being really toxic (when you compare to those of other clubs who will never say an ill word about their former clubs) is problematic, but what you gonna do.
What do you think this is down to? Is it a symptom of success the likes of Keane, Scholes, Neville, Rooney had at United as players vs the level the club are at now do you think? It must be somewhat difficult to look at the club you played for most or all of your career (and in some of their cases grew up supporting) and had huge success with be a shadow of it's former self. Whereas a lot of the other pundits like Carra, Wright, Shearer, Micah Richards etc that appear pretty regularly never really had that period of such sustained success as players to the extent they've ever had to look on at this type of drop in standard.
Also when you think about the personalities - those 4 tend to naturally inject a bit more humour and be less serious compared to the United 4 I mentioned (with the exception of Gary Nev) so I think that might also come into play.
That said, I respect that they have to call it how it is but there could maybe be a bit more optimistic as a means of trying to help lift the club during a dark time rather than always choosing the option instead of kicking the players and the manager whilst they're down.
As to the why - I'm not sure. What you laid out makes sense, there might also be a more subconscious, pernicious element of them enjoying putting the boot in, as it highlights their achievements even more. There is also the case of the negative media feeding itself - everything regarding Utd is a big story, they're dragged into it, there must be some mental fatigue which could contribute. And generally speaking, I'm certain they must genuinely be hurting at seeing how much the standards have slipped.
As for the last bit, calling it how it is, there's a lot of it that is subjective, there's a lot of playing to the party line (Neville is the biggest culprit at this), and as much as they should be objective, what Keane did (and it's not an isolated incident) goes above and beyond "journalistic" duty - it's personal and mean spirited.
That’s the key part. I don’t know who he wants in place of Bruno. Maguire again, the same man whose interviews he mocked in 2021? Other supposed dressing room leaders like Shaw and Martinez who are injured more than fit, Casemiro who is horrifically past it, or Onana who has to go ASAP?
His point is as confusing as his vendetta.
The problem is probably deeper than that. He could be thinking that the transfer business at United has been a joke and that's why they're left with Bruno being the best choice as a captain when he isn't really captain material.
The rage was from the frustration of the club he dedicated his best years too being turned to shit. As a fan who lived through that golden period I can resonate with it. It's so utterly disappointing to see these players not try week in week out.
They're not any less talented than Cleverly, Anderson, Gibson, Welbeck, O'shea etc. Those guys gave 110% regularly. I saw the Fulham game and it was so disappointing to see the lack of running with intent, especially in the attacking phase of play. A 17 year old boy was the fulcrum of our attack.
I’ve raised this point before but none of these pundits have seen their clubs sink to the current depts United have sunk. If Arsenal, city or Liverpool dropped to 15th in the table and lost every other home game they played (comfortably) I’d imagine the likes of Carragher, Richards and Wright would be extremely scathing.
I completely agree with you, but the problem then would be how he’s projecting that solely on to Bruno. Since Maguire was stripped of the captaincy and De Gea left, he hasn’t dug out any individuals aside from Bruno. He said on Sky that stripping Bruno of the captaincy should be our primary priority. I’d say that in the cesspool of nonsensical statements made about United in recent memory, that one tops the lot.
Ultimately, it’s an insane personal vendetta that serves no purpose but to put down our captain and best player, from a man who claims to not even support the club.
O'Shea > Onana.
If this is what he meant, I’d even argue with this. Why is Bruno not captain material? I’ll give you my reasons as to why I think he is:
1) He leads by example (10G and 10A+ every season since his arrival).
2) He’s very well-liked in the dressing room as shown by his continuing good relationships with players who’ve left the club like De Gea, Scott and Martial.
3) He motivates his teammates on the pitch and social media.
4) He’s not afraid to have a proper go at his teammates when they make glaring errors. Contrary to what many fans think, this is important in a football team.
5) He pressures the referees when they make shocking decisions against us. Again, contrary to popular belief, this is important. Once refs see a club as a soft touch, they’re not getting any 50-50 decisions. I’ll direct anyone who disagrees to Fergie’s United, Pep throughout his career and Klopp’s Liverpool.
The only thing that goes against him is the petulant arm flailing at times. Even so, none of his teammates have openly taken exception to it aside from Lindelof and Sancho. Proper players…
Is Bruno Keane (ironically)? Absolutely not. However, he is a good captain, certainly a sight better than his predecessors Valencia and Young who no one took exception to, and our current most important piece in the jigsaw.
If he was a good captain (at the level United need), the players around him would not be playing to the current standard, they wouldn't be constantly bashed for covering the least distance in a football match the last few years. You can't compare him to captains like Young, that's how mediocrity creeps in. You have to compare him to the captains of the teams where you want to be... players like VVD.
Or the players around him are just shit and no captain will help them improve.
One or the other really.
Maybe it is down to being a bit hopeless how things are supposed to get better. After all, Keane didn't criticize him as a player, said that the talent is there but more is required. I think, Bruno as one of the better players is also a bit of a target as he is part of this failing team. That being said, we all have been in a situation where we simply vent our frustration without being able to offer solutions, alternatives or suggestions. That in itself might not be super productive but frustration is an emotion and it will find its way out.
I never really warmed to Bruno, I appreciate his strengths but I also see his weaknesses pretty clearly. Maybe Keane is on the same trajectory. If there is no connection, it is easier to lay into somebody. And maybe deep down he thinks that captains have to be the way he was as a captian, hard, demanding, sending signals. Thats not Bruno, for the better in this time and day but it might be a reason why Keane singles him out. Wasn't aware that it is a regular thing
That definitely helps to establish a leading role but thats only one aspect of a leader.
Another thing that might help. But who knows about such connections, its piss easy to place an emoji here and there, might not even be him, not on his side, not on the others. And no doubt he was professionally respected given that he had at least some output.
But he is also complaining and throwing arms. Motivating team mates is something that should be a bit of a given for every team member.
He has a go at them even when they don't make a mistake. Or after he himself made mistakes. There are two sides of the story.
And he got a reputation now for it. Also I don't really know where the theory comes from that refs would be extra harsh on "soft teams". Why would they? How would they benefit from it?
He has been a key player and established as an important part of the United team in recent years. Every player who would go up against him, would risk something due to group dynamics. Thats not saying there is a large crowd brooding hidden waiting to have a go but I think it is an odd way of excusing this behaviour. After all, he isn't the only one doing it and nobody can't get over the fact that he does it. It is just that a few people think that this doesn't fit for a captain.
I agree so far that he is the only logical captain right now. Even though I think the role is a bit of a burden for him. The notions to strip him off the captaincy seem pure actionism, the whole team is failing, no matter who the captain would be, he wouldn't look any better.
But there’s the problem. No one took exception to Young being captain…because we had no options. Even Valencia, I absolutely adored him for his power on and off the ball, but the bloke couldn’t even speak English. He was a captain that was essentially non-communicative with fans, and again, no one took exception.
Also, I’ll give you that Bruno might not be as good a captain as Van Dijk, but I’ll fight his case all day long against Odegaard, and, God help us all, Kyle Walker, who captained the top two sides last season. There’s not much more he can do to elevate his teammates. Put it this way, if you put Keane into the dressing room now, would Højlund suddenly be able to control the ball?
That’s fair. I’ve had my fair share of outbursts, many irrational, about United as well. However, like I replied to another poster, Keane never had a problem with captaincy when it was Young or Valencia who had the armband. Are we saying that he had a connection to them?
I just think he should direct his frustrations elsewhere. He speaks out more about Bruno than the Glazers and Jim Ratcliffe. That is absolutely not right for a United legend, especially one who isn’t even paid by the club anymore.
I love all these creative reasons people keep providing to why the team is so crap.
1. Fergie left us with nothing
2. Bruno is not a good captain
3. We should have sacked this manager.
4. We sacked that manager too soon
The obvious answer is that we have had over a decade of terrible transfers. That has caught up with us. We have to fix it and wait.
1. Fergie left us with nothing
2. Bruno is not a good captain
3. We should have sacked this manager.
4. We sacked that manager too soon
The obvious answer is that we have had over a decade of terrible transfers. That has caught up with us. We have to fix it and wait.