I agree BBF but I couldn't be asked to keep looking for more examples. Woz my strawman comment was in response to the newbie who said no one has been calling for Amorim to be sacked.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Ok we are cool, all United fans want is just to get excited again every time our team plays and I repeat I was one of Amorim’s biggest champions when we recruited him because he offered something very fresh with his unique version of 3421, physical, mobile, compact, rotating triangles, working as a unit offensively and defensively but he had his wing backs high and in the limited time we saw Amad, I genuinely thought he was excellent as a right wing back and I just hope we get the 4 correct options we need to fulfil the most important players in this position, for his system to work.
Diego Leon if he settles looks a great buy to go with Dorgu, but he could and should have given Amass, Mantato or Scallion a go as well, even for 15/20 minutes in a game at wing back, to at least rest the current options.
He must find a way and soon to stop our more defensive wing backs to both play so deep, where PL opponents have worked out his system and just push their full backs really high to pen us into this Depressing, defensive 5221 playing on the edge of our penalty box.
Wow, yeah, totally agree. The additional problem with unicorn players is they have to be injury-proof on top of everything else. One injured unicorn and the system limps along or not at all.Dunno. Just reckon most coaches, unless they are elite ones at the top of their game, are pretty expendable. So I think I would pull the plug on this particular experiment, overhasty and overly dramatic as that might sound?
Sometimes things are extremely misaligned, in practise if not in theory, even accounting for mitigating factors. In those instances it's better to admit your fault and take swift remedial measures (with a more thorough understanding of what went wrong with your assessment processes in the first place and what not to do in the future), instead of persisting and wasting precious resources. And I quite like Amorim since his Sporting CP days too (likewise for Ten Hag since his Ajax days). It's nothing personal, you move on in a respectful and professional manner, and strive to do better with the next appointment.
The fundamental issue, which won't ever go away, is that it's extremely difficult to pull off a high-level 343 base. Doubly so with an orthodox one, where the manager won't adapt like Alonso or Nagelsmann would (or possibly tweak it to make is more threatening like a Cruyffian 3133). And even harder to sustain your success and performance on a year-to-year basis. You need wingbacks who are credible offensive and playmaking threats who will be respected by the opposition and also capable of shunting up and down the pitch while making a difference practically all on their own (or you get pinned back with little offensive width to speak of), you need midfielders who are freaky athletes with irrepresible engines and technically wonderful and capable of constructing the game (shortcomings in any of those aspects can have a domino effect on the rest of the team), you need centerbacks who are expert progressive passers and ball-carriers and capable of covering wide areas (if these centerbacks are not progressive you are again pinned back), and so forth. So much of the team has to be comprised of “unicorn players” to dominate and succeed at the top end of the Premier League vis-à-vis Liga Portugal with a 343 base (and unicorns are unicorns for a reason, they are extremely rare and in great demand).
It's high-difficulty mode football, when there's no need to have a high-difficulty approach, and margin for error is minimized. It's easier to hide your flaws and adapt to non-optimal circumstances in other bases. Which is part of the reason why they are so widely used and considered the norm, by also-ran and elite teams alike (elite teams aren't elite every week and every year, and they too need to adapt and hide their flaws from time to time). There's really no need to reinvent the wheel, when the burden of proof across the modern history of football (or even in the current year with likes of Real Madrid, Liverpool, Paris Saint-Germain, Barcelona (all of whom play with a 433 or 4231 base)) is against us. Most of our flaws are not going to get resolved anytime soon, so it makes little sense to persist with an unyielding 343 base that amplifies our flaws. And the project itself might not even have an incredible medium term payoff, which is the underlying expectation when you put in so much time and effort surely, because even if you get everything right with regard to recruitment and development, it's comparivitely harder to sustain your success and performance on a year-to-year basis in an orthodox 343 base (which lends itself to boom-and-bust cycles and player churn).
Given where we are it makes more sense, at least in theory, to appoint someone with these characteristics...
Essentially someone who will arrest the tailspin we seem to be in and help restore us as a somewhat respectable Top 4-6 club as soon as practically possible (it's not completely unrealistic with good coaching and man-management and one good summer window where we prioritize a goal scorer, midfield organizer and playmaking fullback most of all). Once you reach that level it's easier to continually reshape the team because you have higher revenues and seem more appealing (to players and potential head coaching upgrades alike), so you enter a positive feedback loop where the process fuels and reinforces itself as long as the decision-making of the technical team (in charge of the assessment and recruitment of players and head coaches) is mostly on point.
- Hiding the squad-construction flaws of Manchester United and putting players in positions to succeed with a hybrid positional-relational modus operandi, as opposed to highlighting and underscoring our shortcomings and also putting square pegs in round holes. Making do with the personnel at hand in 4231 or 433 bases, while the technical team attempts to improve the squad over a multi-year timeframe with 3-ish reinforcements of the appropriate standard, or at least talent level, each season (this can be scaled upwards, in terms of quantity and assured quality, as the money situation improves).
- Having the collective perform a higher level than the sum of parts, and improving individual levels via coaching as their footballing tutor (something we aren't quite seeing with this head coach). The head coach needs to concentrate on improving individuals as well the collective, and being good at in-game and man management; leaving other tasks to the technical team.
- Trying to qualify for Europe and meeting certain objectives by hook or by crook. In this day and age, not qualifying for the Champions League in particular is akin to getting relegated with regard to the financial and competitive shock and we pay a dear price for each non-qualification (which inhibits the rebuild we so desire). Flippantly burning through multiple seasons in the hopes of maybe, hopefully doing well (relatively speaking) in the future seems borderline suicidal for a club that absolutely needs to claw its way back into the Top 4 to enable the refurbishment of the squad.
10 league games left: are there no expectations on any of them? Can he lose all 10, win the Europa* and then he gets next season? I think we are even or maybe favorites in 3 of the last 10. If we win only those 3 it seems wild to accept a manager who will have won 8 out of 28, regardless of excuses. There are always excuses, injuries, bad luck, Egyptian curses, bad referee decisions. My opinion is he has to win by hook or by crook. If he doesn’t win he’s sacking himself, I just don’t know how many of the remaining 10 would be the limit.
*we aren’t winning the Europa
*we aren’t winning the Europa
The likeliest scenario is the most rational one. We're not getting relegated, we're not winning the EL, and we're obviously not going to finish in the upper half of the table. We're simply going to finish somewhere between 11th and 16th. The sooner we can begin our transfer business the better.
It's 11 games actually, and yes, if he keeps losing games with the same kind of deflated performances, he will be sacked.
If I was a betting man I’d put money on is not winning another game this season. I doubt we will even score 6 league goals in that time.
The players are poor but not this poor. If we don’t win again this season, how can he stay? Would be rediculous to keep him when we might only be able to give him 2 or 3 players due to PSR. Relegation fodder for next season.
Well he needs to do it in the EL now!
The moment Obi stepped on the pitch, he suddenly found chances. And he's 17.
Hojlund doesn't show natural movement and always ends up behind defenders.
That's one of the reasons we get insane amounts of blocked crosses.
Haaland would recieve and shield the ball, and go for 1-2s.
Rasmus's first touch is a short pass currently..
Aaaahhh. So this season Amorim performance is better?
Not really, but it's definitely not worse.
This is it, isn’t it? I don’t know why there’s this disconnect with some fans and seeing players as expendable but not viewing manager’s in the same light.
I also can't see him lasting the entirety of next season. I don't even think there's a guarantee if he survives this season, there will undoubtedly be a few more losses in the upcoming weeks.
The problem for Amorim is he's given himself too much to do. There's been absolutely no improvement to the team whatsoever. Everything is bad from the defence through to the attack. Fans will change the narrative in his favour to cope with diminished expectation, first it was not having a pro longed training session due to the schedule when he was hired, now it's transitioned to injuries. After the summer window it will be something along the lines of needing even more players or having to wait a few months for things to click.
It's almost nonsensical to assume that signing newer players will exalt the performance levels of the team. The biggest issue isn't the results but the performances, I don't think there's enough positives in what Anorim is attempting to do to capitalise on the success of it by spending money.
As it stands a 200+ million pounds investment will be wasted. The rhetoric will then be used to ridicule the owners as opposed to critiquing the managers usability of the newer acquired players in question.
Pending nothing short of a footballing miracle I reckon it takes Amorim his entire contract to reach top six plus an additional year and that's with the hope that the top 10 in the league don't improve too significantly.
We play Harry Maguire, we will always play a low block as long as he is in the back 3.Bar Dorgu and Ugarte we have no physicality.
He needs the time to build that nobody wants to give him anymore.
Dunno. Just reckon most coaches, unless they are elite ones at the top of their game, are pretty expendable. So I think I would pull the plug on this particular experiment, overhasty and overly dramatic as that might sound?
Sometimes things are extremely misaligned, in practise if not in theory, even accounting for mitigating factors. In those instances it's better to admit your fault and take swift remedial measures (with a more thorough understanding of what went wrong with your assessment processes in the first place and what not to do in the future), instead of persisting and wasting precious resources. And I quite like Amorim since his Sporting CP days too (likewise for Ten Hag since his Ajax days). It's nothing personal, you move on in a respectful and professional manner, and strive to do better with the next appointment.
The fundamental issue, which won't ever go away, is that it's extremely difficult to pull off a high-level 343 base. Doubly so with an orthodox one, where the manager won't adapt like Alonso or Nagelsmann would (or possibly tweak it to make is more threatening like a Cruyffian 3133). And even harder to sustain your success and performance on a year-to-year basis. You need wingbacks who are credible offensive and playmaking threats who will be respected by the opposition and also capable of shunting up and down the pitch while making a difference practically all on their own (or you get pinned back with little offensive width to speak of), you need midfielders who are freaky athletes with irrepresible engines and technically wonderful and capable of constructing the game (shortcomings in any of those aspects can have a domino effect on the rest of the team), you need centerbacks who are expert progressive passers and ball-carriers and capable of covering wide areas (if these centerbacks are not progressive you are again pinned back), and so forth. So much of the team has to be comprised of “unicorn players” to dominate and succeed at the top end of the Premier League vis-à-vis Liga Portugal with a 343 base (and unicorns are unicorns for a reason, they are extremely rare and in great demand).
It's high-difficulty mode football, when there's no need to have a high-difficulty approach, and margin for error is minimized. It's easier to hide your flaws and adapt to non-optimal circumstances in other bases. Which is part of the reason why they are so widely used and considered the norm, by also-ran and elite teams alike (elite teams aren't elite every week and every year, and they too need to adapt and hide their flaws from time to time). There's really no need to reinvent the wheel, when the burden of proof across the modern history of football (or even in the current year with likes of Real Madrid, Liverpool, Paris Saint-Germain, Barcelona (all of whom play with a 433 or 4231 base)) is against us. Most of our flaws are not going to get resolved anytime soon, so it makes little sense to persist with an unyielding 343 base that amplifies our flaws. And the project itself might not even have an incredible medium term payoff, which is the underlying expectation when you put in so much time and effort surely, because even if you get everything right with regard to recruitment and development, it's comparivitely harder to sustain your success and performance on a year-to-year basis in an orthodox 343 base (which lends itself to boom-and-bust cycles and player churn).
Given where we are it makes more sense, at least in theory, to appoint someone with these characteristics...
Essentially someone who will arrest the tailspin we seem to be in and help restore us as a somewhat respectable Top 4-6 club as soon as practically possible (it's not completely unrealistic with good coaching and man-management and one good summer window where we prioritize a goal scorer, midfield organizer and playmaking fullback most of all). Once you reach that level it's easier to continually reshape the team because you have higher revenues and seem more appealing (to players and potential head coaching upgrades alike), so you enter a positive feedback loop where the process fuels and reinforces itself as long as the decision-making of the technical team (in charge of the assessment and recruitment of players and head coaches) is mostly on point.
- Hiding the squad-construction flaws of Manchester United and putting players in positions to succeed with a hybrid positional-relational modus operandi, as opposed to highlighting and underscoring our shortcomings and also putting square pegs in round holes. Making do with the personnel at hand in 4231 or 433 bases, while the technical team attempts to improve the squad over a multi-year timeframe with 3-ish reinforcements of the appropriate standard, or at least talent level, each season (this can be scaled upwards, in terms of quantity and assured quality, as the money situation improves).
- Having the collective perform a higher level than the sum of parts, and improving individual levels via coaching as their footballing tutor (something we aren't quite seeing with this head coach). The head coach needs to concentrate on improving individuals as well the collective, and being good at in-game and man management; leaving other tasks to the technical team.
- Trying to qualify for Europe and meeting certain objectives by hook or by crook. In this day and age, not qualifying for the Champions League in particular is akin to getting relegated with regard to the financial and competitive shock and we pay a dear price for each non-qualification (which inhibits the rebuild we so desire). Flippantly burning through multiple seasons in the hopes of maybe, hopefully doing well (relatively speaking) in the future seems borderline suicidal for a club that absolutely needs to claw its way back into the Top 4 to enable the refurbishment of the squad.
You perfectly summarized my thinking. As a bit of a Football nerd I like the idea of 343s but if you think about it from a tactical standpoint it's easy to understand why they are not common. To me it's one of these formations that can only be applied opportunistically, if you somehow stumble on the appropriate group of players by all mean use it otherwise don't built a squad for it the same applies to 442 diamonds, 4321s or narrow 4222.
Nope sorry. He chose to ignore his own misgivings and took the job now instead of the summer.
He lost all right to that excuse when he bowed to the pressure and didn't listen to wisdom.
You cannot build without results, we need to get up the table to get European football to deliver greater revenue which then allows you to spend more money on better players, any build from the position we are in will have to be done on the cheap and that's not an easy thing to do otherwise most clubs would be doing it
I want to see some belief in the presser tomorrow and obviously during the match on Thursday. Yes we're shite, but it's a cup competition and it's our last chance at salvaging anything this season.
United made it clear to him the job would not be available in the summer, so he had to either take it or leave it. This was on United, not Amorim.
The rewriting of history is absurd.
I think your aggrandising how useful Hojlund really is we are talking about a severely limited footballer with no IQ to boot.
Haaland would definitely score in this team due to his sheer physicality but as seen with the likes of Alvarez tonight, Isak and Gyokores etc there are strikers who can make space for themselves and influence results. Hojlund is a terrible barometer to be assessing how other strikers will do.
But aside that there's a very valid aspect in your point concerning creativity and the midfield is the issue. I actually can't think of many central players in world football who improve Amorim's system especially domestically in the league. It's a midfield pivot and the wingbacks are significantly further ahead so no inverting movement to provide a passing option. You can also freeze frame United in possession to see how far apart everyone is.
Amorim will need to amend his philosophy to rectify those things.
It's not entirely the teams shape that is the issue but how it's accommodated. As stated majority of this forum would have taken Alonso in the summer and even though he and Amorim play a similar system they are fundamentally kilometers apart in philosophy.
Firstly you keep mentioning the media briefings about new managers.
Call INEOS SPINEOS, wouldn’t it make more sense for them to spin, how great Amorim is behind the scenes to justify there choice…..
Or maybe the media are reveling and click baiting, the maximum they can out of us being Sh1t.
Secondly this isn’t the same squad that finished 3rd.
Rashford gone, Fred gone, Varane gone, Shaw permanently injured, AWB gone, Eriksen legs have gone, Casemiro not the same, Mctominay gone and Weghorst is better than Hojlund atleast he could hold up the ball, DDG gone and Martial gone.
The fact ETH has replaced the majority of the above with crap, for extortionate prices is the reason we are where we are, the team that finished 3rd doesn’t exist here anymore.
If we accept it we are going to go the way of Leeds….
They went under, due to their board gambling on ITV Carlton TV revenue which never came, so had a fire sale and huge financial issues.
Looking at the cost cutting from INEOS and all the reliable financial experts, highlights the fact we are in serious trouble financially, without INEOS putting actual money in the club who know the situation we would be in, the Glazers wouldn’t put a penny in to save us from administration.
That doesn’t mean I am justifying anything they have done, I do not agree with all of it, but a business that hasn’t made a profit since 2019 and is losing money clearly is underperforming and bloated.
18-20 points if we added that onto what we are on now, that would put us 3rd behind Arsenal.
If that is your barometer for Amorim, you are having a laugh, he deserves some criticism but you think this team is gonna go on a run and start scoring goals for fun to win that many games.
You must truly be delusional, just like your usual £300m transfer window fantasy.
Despite taking their shareholding 12 months ago, Ineos Sport had no real control over football matters until the end of the season, when they appointed their new management team (who technically all work for Utd, not Ineos).
Two of those 7 Nice managers were stand-in caretakers, appointed when a manager was sacked halfway through the season.
So by your reckoning, they've been through 3 managers at Utd , in the 8 months they've been in charge.
At Nice, they inherited their first manager, Patrick Viera and gave him time, but after 18 months he had to go..
The first season was uninspiring, but after dismal results in the first half of the following season, they decided to sack him.
A caretaker manager (Ursea) was brought in to complete the rest of the season.
Galtier was given 1 season in charge and finished 5th in the league.
He wasn't fired.
He left the club when PSG poached him at the end of the season.
They then brought back a former Nice manager, Favre, but he was a disaster and was sacked in the January of his first season.
The reserves manager Digard, was asked to step in and fill the post until the end of the campaign.
A full time manager, Farioli was signed at the end of that season (2 year contract).
The team started the new season positively, but it went downhill after the New year and they ended the season poorly, so off he went.
The current manager, since last summer, Franck Haise, has turned Nice's fortunes around.
They are currently 3rd in the league, in a CL spot, with 10 games left.
Just 3 points behind 2nd place Marseille.
PSG with their €€millions, are runaway league leaders, as usual.
Haise is the 4th manager appointed full time since Ineos bought the club.
They have sacked 3, one of which, Viera, who they inherited and didn't appoint.
One left to go to PSG and their 4th appointee is doing well at the present time.
Note also, Nice's heyday was in the 1950's.
For nearly 60 years since, they've been a mid to lower league team, with a few spells in the 2nd division.
Before SJR took over, they've only had a few fleeting moments of finishing in the top 6 or getting to a cup final.
Looks like they're now making progress.
.
If he has replaced ETH in the summer, he still would have had 2 in 12 months, so I don’t get what your point is.
As things stand at the moment I will be astounded if Ineos stick with him passed the summer.
Also consider the demeanor of Amorim in interviews and post match media he's under pressure. I think fans have invented this scenario where he can finish in an abysmal league position and he remains irrespective.
I reckon INEOS have given him support but no reassurance. He mentioned the objective for the club winning the league even if he's not the man in charge. That doesn't sound like someone with the same level of backing from the hierarchy as fans believe.
Adam Wharton is the one, has showed he can do it in the PL at Palace, would just cost a fortune.
A few on here have convinced themselves that we are going to go out and spend a load of money in the Summer buying him the players he needs to overhaul the squad but the truth is the club is skint (and will be even worse off without the income from European football and the related loss of Sponsorship) so simply cant afford to do that and will be starting next season with mostly the same squad Ruben is failing to get perormances out of now.
Which does make you wonder how much they actually see him as the man they want to take their project forward if they couldn't even wait 6 months to hire him.
It's possible that they've all agreed that this season is a bit of a write off in the league and are willing to let him impose his style and drag it out until the summer then revisit transfer targets.
If that is the case.
You might assume that maybe, just maybe, they are currently working on properly scouting players and laying the groundwork for deals to be done in the summer.
But this is probably not the case.
100 times this post! This post should be pinned at the top of every page! Well said…!!!
It’s surely beyond dispute that this is the weakest United squad we’ve seen in decades…players are either too young, too old or lacking any physicality to properly compete (sometimes 2 of the 3!) and then on top of all that, half the squad is either out on loan with no replacements or injured. It is a joke!
Amorim is pressing every button he possibly can to try and get a tune out of this threadbare squad on a game by game basis. If we didn’t cough up so many unbelievably cheap goals (looking at you Onana!) then we might have managed to build a little bit of momentum but not only are they weak physically, there’s a number of them in that squad that don’t have the mentality to play for a big institution like United. I don’t know how the feck we’ve got to this point (well, Glazers and their henchmen…) but Amorim is not the reason we’re struggling as badly as we are.
We are desperately in need of some luck for a change and are in need of a reset in the Summer…reinforcements cannot arrive soon enough…
The most hilarious part is centre back is our most stacked position, arguably. You can’t make it up.
This should be pinned for some of the clueless supporters who want a manager gone after less than 4 months in the job.
We aren’t getting top 6 with our current midfielders.
That list makes Amorim look bad as he underperforms relative to Arteta and Klopp.
There are plenty calling for him to be sacked , granted most of them are typing on a computer who haven’t been to OT
Hardly any fans want him sacked now. I would be surprised if Amorim manages 8 wins in the PL this season, which would then rank at the bottom of the stat. Let's see in May.
Prepare to be astounded that Ineos don’t judge a Manager after 3 months
Season ticket holder here who wants him sacked. Trekking to games in the pouring rain only to see him field 7 defensive players week in week out has worn me down worse than Van Gaal's zombie football. For all of Ten Hag's faults, at least he would occasionally have a go and we'd see fast breaks to get us off our seats.
I can't fathom the theory that Van Nistelrooy should have been sacked and Ruben shouldn't. Ruben hasn't had a chance to manage 'his players'. Is it not the same for other under- performing managers?
It’s been less than 4 months he’s been in the job trying to implement a system with half a underperforming squad and the other half injured