And a decent goalie & that's the bare minimum.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
And a decent goalie & that's the bare minimum.
Respectfully, I don’t think it could have been articulated any better. Fact of the matter is - a CL entry and subsequent revenue would be better than otherwise - the question/argument wasn’t about a sliding scale so it should just be left there - “something is better than nothing” - rather than pontifications about “how much of an impact”, no?
I’m not really sure of what you’re saying here so I’ll just say; I disagree. The notion that you can’t build long-term whilst attempting and/or being fully committed to winning the cups that you’re in (as established by the premise of the post you replied to) - especially so when we have a decent shout at it - and could facilitate said long-term building is ridiculous in my opinion. I appreciate your attempt to engage/articulate your view - and it’s likely a deficit on my end - but we will not agree nor see eye to eye on this if you think otherwise.
I do agree there was undoubtedly assurances, how deep those assurances actually go are another thing though, was relegation form and poor showings in the cups part of that? I don't buy the get out of jail free card angle anyway.
I completely agree. It’s incredibly frustrating to listen to the mentality of some sections of the fan base, and equally frustrating in trying to educate them on the folly of their thinking.
Last year we were so bad, after two years of building under ETH, setting all sorts of negative records, and frankly performances and data metrics were even worse than results. But then one cup win and many pivoted and used it as a reason to retain support for the manager. Despite overwhelming evidence that this was a mistake. Prior to the final, all polls showed the significant majority of fans were in favour of him being sacked, after the game the poll swung the other way - as though it was evidence of progress, when every available data set pointed towards a containing downward curve the next season.
Ineos, I assume and believe, bowed to this overwhelming fan pressure, and kept ETH on. And it was a huge mistake. The evident logical reasoning bore through as accurate, and the team achieved the results the data suggested they would. Very, very poor results. By this point we had already done further ETH driven recruitment, albeit recruitment with more coherency to a wider strategic vision.
Now we are at the beginning of a massive rebuild of the squad and a complete overhaul of the cultural and competitive environment of the club. A process that will take time and patience. To hang that process on the outcome of any knockout competition is absurd, and indeed indicative of the same flawed thinking of the last decade or more. The vision and judgement of success has to be judged against completely different metrics.
He has a get out of jail free card until he’s had some influence on the make up of the squad at least.
It's not just being hung on the Europa though is it. If he was keeping us afloat in the PL, winning back to back fixtures at least here or there none of us would be even having this discussion. It's hanging on poor showings across the board pretty much. It just so happens that the Europa is our last chance of salvaging any dignity from this season and Amorims tenure so far.
The cult around this guy is something else… it’s worse than Rangnick, and at least that guy had the excuse of just being interim to get away with saying mental things constantly and turning in consistently awful performances from day one.
Can anyone name one thing he has done to improve us on the pitch since he took over? One thing which might suggest we mortgage the future of the club against his one style of playing?
Can anyone name one thing he has done to improve us on the pitch since he took over? One thing which might suggest we mortgage the future of the club against his one style of playing?
We have not improved even 1%
Let me try it differently: I think it is absolutely valid to ask the manager to go for every trophy that is there. Especially in our situation where the trophy is more or less everything we could play for. What I think is wrong though, is partnering this (le me call it positive, competitive) expectation with some "either that or your gone" attitude, that is anything but positive.
I didn't say it is impossible per se to to build longterm while maintaining a certain level of success. I said that in our specific case it is even more difficult to do so. As said - there were so many indicators there that we were trending downwards, long before there was even talk of Amorim. And again, I think expecting the team to have a proper go at the opportunities it has is absolutely legit and fine, my struggles start where people cross the line not just hoping for positive performances but to expect positive results in one-off games.
We don't know what happened behind closed doors. I agree, we should have parted ways with ETH but at the same time, I was adamant in saying "getting rid only for the sake of getting rid doesn't make sense, you need a plan". From what I understood, none of the candidates were convincing enough. No question though, sticking to ETH only to get rid of him a few month later even though nothing really changed, was fickle and reactionary. Unfortunately this seems to become a proud tradition.. which is one of the reasons I am so worried seeing what is brewing within the fanbase yet again.
Agree wholeheartedly to the bolded part.
Don't agree on the part with the additional ETH driven recruitment. None of the players was a pure ETH prototype that has no use away from him.
JZ was a little to pricey and I personally thought we should avoid adding another young striker but one that could lift a bit of pressure from Hojlund but so young and at that price, it isn't the end of the world.
De Ligt is a good defender in terms of natural talent, physical state and ability to play the ball. He also came at a good price, I personally don't see him not fitting in the team under any coach.
Mazraoui was cheap, a good player that we got for a good price. He isn't a wingback, sure, but who knows, maybe he turns out a right CB. For the price, this isn't any damage done.
Ugarte is a mobile midfielder with decent passing ability for his expected role, great physicality and a decent skillset to play in modern midfields. No damage done.
None of them would have been my personal choices I guess but I don't think, any of them were obvious mistakes or un-recyclebar under a different coach. Obviously, other profiles may have been more important under a different manager but I think, thats a different issue than outright saying the recruitment was a complete waste of time.
None of this has anything to do with the post you replied to - hence my confusion.
CL entry and revenue would improve our financial situation. Building long term whilst attempting to and/or committing to winning cup competitions aren’t mutually exclusive.
There was nothing said about “positive” stances and “either this or gone” nor about how hard it is to do xyz. Your post read as though it was presented with caveats to simple statements when it’s in fact having entirely different discussion points.
Ten Hag has several injuries to deal with and is forced to play Kambwala and Casemiro at CB.
The caf: "He should still be winning games with the squad available and there's no excuse for his awful tactics"
Amorim has several injuries to deal with.
The caf: "He has been so unlucky with injuries. How is he supposed to do anything with the current squad at his disposal?"
I think it’s simple, if he, Wilcox and Berrada are all on the same page as to why is not working and what is still needed, then he’ll be given time.
I think there will be an acceptance at the club that, no matter who the coach is, this team needs a decent revamp. There’s a reason SJR said everyone is for sale, you don’t say that about a squad you have faith in.
Also repeated injuries under Ten Hag was Ten Jag's fault and repeated injuries under this guy just bad luck, let's be clear people are making every excuse for this lad they were not willing to for others no wonder he gets a free pass from so many
And give up the opportunity to join United altogether? Come on, this is a really dumb take from you guys. He reluctantly took the job mid season because that was literally the only option he was given - blame United, not Amorim.
He wasn't forced, he could have told Berrada to feck off.
Your original post was literally blaming him for taking the job now instead of in the summer. You’ve now moved the goalposts to save face. Just take the L dude.
See above posts.
He obviously wanted to join United. You guys are literally blaming him for wanting to join United
Ah and how about that...a different reporter and a different message conveyed about Amorim that doesn't inflame the mob and is much more balanced:
Fecks sake, it's all one hundred percent sensible. This place sometimes. Yeah we're starving for improvement for over a decade. Let's not lose our heads to these click baiters that live off rage and hyperbole
Link to article - ESPN FC
Fecks sake, it's all one hundred percent sensible. This place sometimes. Yeah we're starving for improvement for over a decade. Let's not lose our heads to these click baiters that live off rage and hyperbole
Link to article - ESPN FC
I've watched the actual interview from the link and now agree what he said is sensible. He did quite importantly say that winning Europa would help a lot, so he's not discarding the importance of it whilst eluding to the fact that the true improvements are behind the scenes.
Or blame no one and just accept reality. He made a choice, no one forced him to make it and managers do not have to join United, plenty of all time greats did perfectly fine without United.
Yup and I'm sensing that on the flip, winning the Europa League wouldn't slow him down or soften his stance around the level of changes needed. All in all, I think a very fair perspective.
I'm not, stop strawmanning us. You are the one lying saying he was forced to join. No one is forced to join an employer.See above posts.
He obviously wanted to join United. You guys are literally blaming him for wanting to join United
I think the choice was, "you join now or never". That's an ultimatum which isn't much better than the way you're defining forced.
He has been open with the media since his arrival, but he might begin to regret that approach as the results continue to be bad and the season comes to an end.
The bland and boring approach with the media might have made his life easier in the long run.
We see this happen with every manager/coach the job just drains the energy from them.
*Not an observation from today’s presser, more just in general.
The bland and boring approach with the media might have made his life easier in the long run.
We see this happen with every manager/coach the job just drains the energy from them.
*Not an observation from today’s presser, more just in general.
Yeah I agree, he can't keep emotively explaining bad results and going deep into why things are going wrong. Should just play a straight bat sometimes.
I like Amorim I think he has a clear philosophy and staying with that for a period of time will only do us good. Building is called building for a reason, not everything is fixed straight away but once the foundations are laid it's much easier.
A manager can't teach somebody how to score goals. That ability is the most illusive in football. If they could teach it we wouldn't have a shortage of goalscorers in the game. If they could teach it they'd have been goalscorers themselves. You have to buy it in.
The irony is that the qualities of openness and honesty that make Amorim popular and a media darling are most likely corrosive to team morale. With every passing week he demonstrates why Ten Hag's insistence on fobbing off the media by defending the performance, which everyone despised him for, was probably a far more sensible approach to morale management.
This exchange started because @roseguy64 was blaming Amorim for joining mid season, failing to appreciate that it was a take it or leave it offer ultimatum from United. Amorim accepted it knowing it would be difficult as a result - he’s embracing the reality of the situation. Most of us are doing the same, the only people with an issue are the ones like rose blaming Amorim for any random nonsense they can think up.
It's not just about the strikers/attackers, Hojilund and Zirkzee may be a lost cause either way, but nobody has improved. Not Mainoo, Garnacho or anybody has raised their level or regressed completely. Amad I'd not even include because he pretty much just needed to be played, as opposed to phased out under ETH.
I say stay the course with Ruben. There's really no choice anyway and in fact I would say we're at some risk of Ruben walking on us even with the knowledge that that would mean his contract is torn up and he gets no severance payments from the club.
My only quibble with Amorim is that he persists with tactics with players who just can't or wait deal with the tactics. We need a rebuild no matter what so why not sacrifice his principles now and do whatever it would have taken to secure at least a EL spot if not an actual CL spot by winning the EL this season AND THEN teach whoever is in the squad this summer how to play football.
My only quibble with Amorim is that he persists with tactics with players who just can't or wait deal with the tactics. We need a rebuild no matter what so why not sacrifice his principles now and do whatever it would have taken to secure at least a EL spot if not an actual CL spot by winning the EL this season AND THEN teach whoever is in the squad this summer how to play football.
Would have been interesting to see how he would have handled both Ronolad and Snacho with the media. “They gave me a way past his prime primadona who can’t run, and a fecking waster who stays up all night playing FIFA then can’t be arsed to put in any effort in training. Pair of cnuts, I tell ya.”
If you take as a fact that he wanted to step up to manage on the biggest clubs in the world, which is probably the ambition of all managers when they are start off, have some success and are upwardly mobile, then it's fair to say he was offered the option to join in the summer or not at all.
Why is he speaking as if he's some realist pundit? This is going to do nothing to inspire a squad at rock-bottom morale.
I wholeheartedly agree with your second paragraph.
Yeah them two being a lost cause is exactly why Chido should have been registered with Dorgu and Heaven back on Feb 6. Would have been such a useful option for Ruben to utilise
So basically, we have no chance of winning the Europa league, because the players are rubbish, but in a few years and whole new squad you wait and see we will win everything. That's basically what he's saying isn't it.
That is crap management whatever way you look at it. His ego can't handle the failure and he is throwing the players under the bus. Great stuff, that can only go well.
That is crap management whatever way you look at it. His ego can't handle the failure and he is throwing the players under the bus. Great stuff, that can only go well.
Where has he said we've no chance of winning it and thrown players under the bus?
Winning EL would be good.
Going out now to play once a week would be good.
I think that's what Amorim secretly thinks, it doesn't matter either way to him but I believe he wants to win every game - but if we go out, it's not the end of the world either.
Going out now to play once a week would be good.
I think that's what Amorim secretly thinks, it doesn't matter either way to him but I believe he wants to win every game - but if we go out, it's not the end of the world either.
No, @roseguy64 stated that him joining midseason when he was against it shouldn't be used in his favor because it's a decision that he took on his own. He didn't blame anyone.