I didn’t call your decision selfish and wouldn’t do that. And I deeply sympathise with what you’re describing here. I’m not even saying what you did was wrong. I just think it wasn’t wise, because the consequences (which are in no way solely attributable to your group) are so serious for so many people.
The Trump Presidency : Part 2
- Thread starter The Boy
- Start date
-
Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Your argument would make more sense if there there was a marked difference on that single issue.
I don't understand and I have been campaigning about Palestine for over three decades. I have been in police custody a few times as a result.
Your posting is quite fevered on this topic. I avoid the Israel Palestine threads on here because I wouldn't be able to keep my cool with people opposing me, but you're even attaching people who agree with you because they see things a bit differently.
Pretty wild that people are still blaming Harris and the Dems for this.
This is pathetic and has barely moved on from 6 months ago.
The bottom line is as simple then as it is now. Not voting for Trump is what got him elected. 6.3m fewer people voted for Harris than Biden. Blame lack of enthusiasm, blame racism, blame sexism, blame what -ism gets you out of bed. But blame should be aportioned. Because this Trump is exactly what he said he'd be, what we all warned about and what everyone could see coming from a mile away.
Now fathers, students are being ripped off the street, put in vans and deported to foreign jails. USAID is dead. Millions will suffer because of decisions being made by 20 something tech bros who worship at the alter of one of the most fundamentally broken human beings on the planet. Federal agencies that protect health, education, the environment are being destroyed. NATO is dead. Russia is in the ascendancy, Ukraine's sovereign borders will never be taken back. Gaza will be bulldozed to make way for a mix of settlers and Jared Kushner luxury hotels. Students are deported for their political opinions. Judges threatened for following the law.
We said all of this would happen if people didn't vote. I don't care what your issue was, is - if you could have voted against Trump and chose not to, this is on you.
What you meant to say in that last line is that they never felt strongly about YOUR issue.
This is pathetic and has barely moved on from 6 months ago.
The bottom line is as simple then as it is now. Not voting for Trump is what got him elected. 6.3m fewer people voted for Harris than Biden. Blame lack of enthusiasm, blame racism, blame sexism, blame what -ism gets you out of bed. But blame should be aportioned. Because this Trump is exactly what he said he'd be, what we all warned about and what everyone could see coming from a mile away.
Now fathers, students are being ripped off the street, put in vans and deported to foreign jails. USAID is dead. Millions will suffer because of decisions being made by 20 something tech bros who worship at the alter of one of the most fundamentally broken human beings on the planet. Federal agencies that protect health, education, the environment are being destroyed. NATO is dead. Russia is in the ascendancy, Ukraine's sovereign borders will never be taken back. Gaza will be bulldozed to make way for a mix of settlers and Jared Kushner luxury hotels. Students are deported for their political opinions. Judges threatened for following the law.
We said all of this would happen if people didn't vote. I don't care what your issue was, is - if you could have voted against Trump and chose not to, this is on you.
I know you didn't, I'm just prepared to accept that perhaps it is selfish. That's why red lines are always personal.
The tariffs stuff is confusing. It's a day away but not all details are known yet?
You only need to know one thing: It will be tremendous.
I am just a decade behind you, hopefully I'll get there with the same energy. Only one detention because of tibet, which I'm very proud of.
I'm not attacking people because they see things a bit differently. I'm doing it because not a day goes by on this thread without me reading that I'm an idiot or a moron or wanting to earn internet points or I'm virtue signaling from the top of my high horse.
Ok. I was just having quite a low key conversation and it was you who had a pop at me. I called you none of those things. You singled me out. So maybe you bring some of the issues on yourself? Like I say, I wouldn't last a week if I was to post with full gusto in the Israel thread.
There are a lot reasons why Trump won, the most notable being that Harris was viewed as an uninspiring, somewhat manufactured, establishment candidate incapable of galvanizing Dems and Independents to come out and vote in sufficient numbers. All the while, Trump, as he's now shown in 3 consecutive elections, does have the ability to get far more Rs and Indys to come out and vote. That's why he swept all seven swing states. Ultimately, winning elections is still fundamentally a GOTV game, especially with both parties living in a constant state of political bifurcation. If either party cough up an uninspiring candidate, they are almost guaranteed to lose.
Come on guys, take it to the democratic party thread.
The discussion should be how the DNC get the people to vote for them.
The discussion should be how the DNC get the people to vote for them.
Yep. Also, Harris was mostly kept in the background during Biden's presidency (until he stepped back as candidate), except she was made responsible for the absolute worst possible area of policy - border security. And then she had some clangers from her 2019 primary run on social issues.
No twerking allowed in the CE George.
You wrote this: "Yep, anyone who abstained from voting against Trump on 'principle' is a fecking idiot"
Yes, ok. Harsh on my part, but I did go on to explain that even on that one issue there is no indication at all that Trump was less of a threat to Palestine, if anything he might be worse. Nobody was whisked off the streets to jail for support for Palestine before he was elected? He's definitely worse if you include other countries and domestic policy.
For what's it's worth, I have no issue with single issue voters if one choice is in any way better on that issue.
Pretty wild people are still finding excuses for harris' support of genocide and instead prefer to blame a tiny minority who everyone said before the election would have zero impact on the result.
Nobody is doing that though. Nobody is excusing what is going on there? Unless I missed it.
After decades of this, I just can't stomach voting for parties that are terrible but rely on "the other guy is worse, so you have no choice. Now shut up and vote for me".
We had plenty of "but her hands are tied" posts in the election thread regarding support for israel.
Yuge!
Well you look at the last 30 plus years you see the vile and unwavering US support for Israel is structural, with nobody doing anything different except different levels of lip service to peace.
To be clear, I generally oppose all the things you mention so I'm not necessarily defending them, I don't think they disqualify a country from being a democratic republic though, its just they make the country less democratic than a system without.
Filibuster I tend to go back and forth on over the years though. The positive interpretation would be its a mechanism that prevents an out of control majority. For instance, if a majority under Trump want Trump to throw in jail anyone that speaks out against Trump but some Democrats use the Filibuster to stop that policy from being enacted then, even if that goes against the 51% majority, I'd actually say the filibuster was being used as a democratic tool against an undemocratic policy. So I don't think some of these are outright anti-democratic even if it might seem that way at first glance when wielded in bad faith by the modern right wing.
I think neverdie's reminder of Citizens United though is pretty important. At the moment, I probably consider that the most undemocratic mechanism in the US currently that outright subverts democratic ideals even more than any of the things you mentioned.
Like I said, I think this Trump term is the biggest actual challenge to the US being a democratic Republican in its history and I am truly frightened at where things might go. Trump and his team are just so much better at pounding home their message and narrative than any faction in the opposition (either establishment Dems or leftists or whomever). I think Bernie, for example, was stronger at messaging and narrative than Hilary or Kamala for sure, but I still don't think Bernie was a good as Trump.
Yes, it's a shit election slogan but even with my long history of rage, sadness and frustration about Palestine , personally I'd always vote against the more overt rise of fascism.
Before the emergence of the left in Ireland I didn't vote in a few Irish elections because it was a more benign version of the US duopoly and because there was literally nothing at stake from what I can see. I don't see that as the case here.
They were whisked off their college campuses. The first seeds of the current actions toward the pro-Palestine people were planted last year, and the democrats were part of it and cheering on.
Yeah, at best as bad each other. There has been no discernible difference between them in my lifetime.
I don't mean this to sound anywhere near as rude as it's going to.... but what is the point of this repeated conversation at this point?
As far as I can see, it's almost exclusively a bunch of Europeans arguing amongst each other about the pros and cons of abstaining from voting in the US elections, with an occasional American also piping in to get a dig in about hoping people are happy with their choice because its led to Trump. This on the back of initially saying that the single issue that they now use as the stick to beat people with was actually not important enough to influence the election.
It's not led to Trump because none of those people can vote or influence the US election in any way. He won the 2nd highest level of votes in history. I cannot remember a less inspiring campaign from the Dems in my lifetime.
It's honestly such a pointless back and forth, with all due respect, from a group of posters who I generally really respect and listen to.
As far as I can see, it's almost exclusively a bunch of Europeans arguing amongst each other about the pros and cons of abstaining from voting in the US elections, with an occasional American also piping in to get a dig in about hoping people are happy with their choice because its led to Trump. This on the back of initially saying that the single issue that they now use as the stick to beat people with was actually not important enough to influence the election.
It's not led to Trump because none of those people can vote or influence the US election in any way. He won the 2nd highest level of votes in history. I cannot remember a less inspiring campaign from the Dems in my lifetime.
It's honestly such a pointless back and forth, with all due respect, from a group of posters who I generally really respect and listen to.
Astute observations on both points.
Behind Trump and Musk, this cnut is the next vilest MAGA Government creature. Considering the competition, that's quite something.
They have no fecking evidence for the claim that these people are gang members. It’s straight up racism.
Apologies, I have just entered the discussion. Didn't realise it was old ground. And I did think I was chatting to a US voter. Otherwise it actually makes no sense.
Even the court documents said there was no evidence yet her and Vance have repeated the same thing today. The best thing the media can do is walk out in tandem but they won’t.
Perhaps one of these journalists should at some point mention The Atlantic has experienced double-digit growth in each of the past four years and has returned to profitability. Instead, just let these clowns set narrative after narrative.
What, you mean like the kind of father found guilty of sexual assault in a civil suit, who paid a professional sex worker to not disclose his infidelity and has 34 felony convictions? That kind of father?
I know mate, it's a nightmare. Don't forget there's also the 'Deja Vu we have covered this a fecking million times already, but let's still do this every two or three weeks, theead.
Kidney donor detained by ICE before life-saving transplant can take place
They keep yelling gang member gang member over and over. But story after story of non gang members getting caught up or dissapearing. This case seems like a good PR move for trump though. If I was an advisor, I would say let this dude do the transplant go take some pictures "see we aren't racists and we care about brown people". Then ship him out right after and go back to being racists.
As I said, the post will definitely come across far more rude than I intended it to.
I get the conversation, I really do. It just seems to be relatively circular and probably nobody is going to change their view by this point. It seems to me anyway that basically all the Americans, apart from the same one who I imagine hasn't voted Dem for a long time regardless, didn't abstain.
Are there any actual Trump voters in this thread ? Everyone, as far as i know, either voted for Harris, abstained, or perhaps voted for a left wing third party.
you are under the wrong impression that they care one iota about appearing not racist and cruel. It is literally the point of this. It's what their base, almost all "christian" wants.