Based on what? We looked crap last year, we're now using a different system which admittedly doesn't suit everyone, with a group that has plenty of players who are even older and who are simply not good enough, and never have been.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
Based on what? We looked crap last year, we're now using a different system which admittedly doesn't suit everyone, with a group that has plenty of players who are even older and who are simply not good enough, and never have been.
No I'm not saying we're worse I'm saying there's really not much in it. There's multiple players from each of Bournemouth, Palace and Brentford who walk into our side. We have nothing special in any position unless you're trying to tell me these other sides would be queing up for players like Onana, Dalot, Ugarte, Hojlund and Garnacho?
I'll give the manager a chance because I know it's far more about quality of players than anything he can influence. Ten Hag ruined us infinitely more with his shambolic eye for recruitment than anything he did on the pitch.
Aww pal, NF hasn't done anything spectacular for me. In fact they very likely to miss out on 5th position... Nuno has done excellently well with that team, however, against the teams who play good football they've been found out. Check their results against teams above them. In fact Moyes showed Nuno how to get things done last time. I might come back to this post at the end of the season though, I feel NF's wheels are coming off rapidly pal.
Again as I said earlier, we are not a top 4 squad but the issue is we are somehow in a worse position than what this squad is capable of. When Klopp came in, his Liverpool team were absolutely awful. However he laid down the template within his first half the season.
Nobody is seeking miracles from Amorim, but to get to this level of performances and results takes a level of ineptitude that’s not been seen at this club for a long time.
If our squad is 15th level now, I don’t expect us to be top 8 next season too. We will see the kind of support he has when he is still struggling like I expect him to.
A few random thoughts on Amorim.
1. I worry about the system for one simple reason. We play 5 defenders + 2 DMs and still look incredibly vulnerable.
Poor coaching? Poor players? Poor fit for the league? We can’t survive all three.
2. I won’t write off a coach based on an under performing squad he had no say in building.
This squad is comfortable with failure as long as they can have moments of “success” (cup wins, one off performances, not losing by 5+ goals to Liverpool). Pep would struggle here.
3. Our last 3 full time managers spent over £400m each. Eth was the most egregious of the three because he
4. He feels like a Nuno type of manager that may fail here but still be a successful coach in this league under better circumstances and with an Ego-less squad. I can’t say the same for Eth or Ole. That’s opinion not fact.
Good luck to him regardless.
1. I worry about the system for one simple reason. We play 5 defenders + 2 DMs and still look incredibly vulnerable.
Poor coaching? Poor players? Poor fit for the league? We can’t survive all three.
2. I won’t write off a coach based on an under performing squad he had no say in building.
This squad is comfortable with failure as long as they can have moments of “success” (cup wins, one off performances, not losing by 5+ goals to Liverpool). Pep would struggle here.
3. Our last 3 full time managers spent over £400m each. Eth was the most egregious of the three because he
- Spent the most (600m)
- Spent a good chunk of that without experiencing the league or understanding the base requirements
- Primarily spent on former players
- Left us with no experienced striker
4. He feels like a Nuno type of manager that may fail here but still be a successful coach in this league under better circumstances and with an Ego-less squad. I can’t say the same for Eth or Ole. That’s opinion not fact.
Good luck to him regardless.
If you don't have PL level goalscorers you won't win many PL games it's really as simple as that. So unless that is addressed in the summer it will be more of the same.
I didn't understand last summer's recruitment because it made no upgrade to the starting XI from last season. With a predictable outcome.
But it is not just the goalscorers. We just lost 4-1 while playing with 5 defenders.
That's why Amorim does not inspire any confidence, he did not fix the defence, either. And we often play with 5 defenders and 2 DMs.
Yes we hope to good lord that we pile every hope we got on his the one formation that worked in an inferior league. He is not holding on to his principles, the dude genuinely has nothing else to offer. Watching him helplessly trodding along the technical area clapping so totally bereft of ideas yesterday is legit scary.
Said this before, all tactics formations will eventually gets found out. But thats another issue, his tactics arent even working.
Why do we need 5-6 defensive players at home every game?
Driving me nuts every game.
I need to lie down a bit.
Only in manchester united we put them on pedestal like this.
The system encourages a lot of pressure on the defences and play with backfoot with 5 defenders and 2 DMs everygame. Oppositions game plan is to press them and force errors, and errors are being made as a result, not everything is on individual mistakes. Current system doesnt help the players. Managers should look to mitigate those errors by sensibly tweak things to accomodate available resources and take those into account.
To be fair to him yesterday, we actually played with a none defending player in the centre of the backline (criminal), with an ageing number 10 in front of him at DM and a kid at left back.
We do look much better with De Ligt or even Maguire in there. We also continue to look an absolute sack of shite whenever Casemiro doesn’t play, and that alone, considering Amorim’s comments about him not long ago, is pretty damning against the manager and his so far, extremely defensive system.
The system only ”works” to some degree when we have lots of defensive players in there, just take out De Ligt or Cas for example and we’re toast.
No question he’s failed spectacularly so far.
Feel his only real chance of salvaging anything now is the Europa League, that should buy him some more time. If he fails that, I think he could end up as the first manager sacked next season.
His tactics in the Prem so far, demand so much. Feel a 5-2-2-1 in this league requires absolutely outstanding players in every position. The likes of Dorgu won’t cut it.
We’ll need about 7 new players to get this to work which is an insane ask for a system manager like this who could end up an incredibly expensive gamble.
Not sure any coach can do anything masterful with a team of ETH inspired signings, didn’t think they could get any worse, and they have managed it several times.
Could there be anything more disastrous than Moyes, then Woodward, and several managers said what yes we can, and ETH came over the top with 2 years of wasteful spending . Coupled with the idiot Woodward , that’s seriously how bad it became.
Could there be anything more disastrous than Moyes, then Woodward, and several managers said what yes we can, and ETH came over the top with 2 years of wasteful spending . Coupled with the idiot Woodward , that’s seriously how bad it became.
That is the problem. There is no single area of the team that seems to have improved under him. When Ole moved to 3 at the back and basically a back 5 for the Liverpool hame, everyone blamed him for being too negative and not improving the set up or style to counter the issues. With Amorim, we are giving him a blanket pass for what is basically Back 5 + 2 DMs and yet we are struggling to manage teams.
For me this comes back to the attack though. We pose such little threat, teams don't worry about pressing us aggressivly as they aren't worried about what we can do with on the counter really.
We also have CDM's which just don't suit the league.
I give the manager the benefit of the doubt at the moment, on the basis I don't think he would have chosen 90% of the players in the squad.
I'm at a loss with the club as a whole though, as appointing Amorim without money to invest in the team seems crazy.
Newcastle show what kind of characteristic and what type of players a good team should have.
1. Physical and speed dominant.
2. Technical neatness for touch and pass.
3. Awareness and off-ball movement.
4. Aggressive pressure as a team
5. Flexible style either by possession and explosive attack.
I think as of now none of first team players of Man United qualify for 1-3. That's why
we fail as a team, cannot build up play from the back and cannot make constant threat in the attack.
The recruitment is the most important aspect nowadays following by coaching and sport science.
I don't believe any good thing can be done by Jason Wilcox and Vivell.
So far, only Heaven might be really gem we get.
Hojlund, Ugarte, Zirkzee, De Ligt, Mazraoui, Dorgu and Yoro are average by far.
Will Ruben Amorim survive next season? Let's see what our summer brings then we'll know answer soon.
1. Physical and speed dominant.
2. Technical neatness for touch and pass.
3. Awareness and off-ball movement.
4. Aggressive pressure as a team
5. Flexible style either by possession and explosive attack.
I think as of now none of first team players of Man United qualify for 1-3. That's why
we fail as a team, cannot build up play from the back and cannot make constant threat in the attack.
The recruitment is the most important aspect nowadays following by coaching and sport science.
I don't believe any good thing can be done by Jason Wilcox and Vivell.
So far, only Heaven might be really gem we get.
Hojlund, Ugarte, Zirkzee, De Ligt, Mazraoui, Dorgu and Yoro are average by far.
Will Ruben Amorim survive next season? Let's see what our summer brings then we'll know answer soon.
Nice thing about posting in a forum is that you can actually look back and check what your expectations were at the time:
Guess I should be kinda happy, as we could hardly have picked a manager more determined to stick to his approach from Day 1. Just a shame about the "underline that ETH was underperforming" part.
Can't wait for this season to be over.
Yeah ultimately I can't wait for this season to be over
Bring on next season with a summer of training and some new transfers
The only players that I think would be specific to this system would be WB's, and even so, they should be able to adapt to playing in a flat back 4. Dorgu is young, I am sure he can play as a normal LB. We still need a striker and midfield partner for Ugarte/Bruno, those don't change regardless of formation. I suppose the AM's behind the striker might be a bit more specific, but even so, we have used wingers in those positions, and a player like Cunha should be able to fit in to other setups.
I think the important part about transfers is that it's not being guided by the manager alone anymore, and I imagine Wilcox and Vivell will have an eye on players who would be able to fit in to other setups as well.
You cling onto the success of a handful of teams like it proves your point when in fact it does the opposite, sure there are a handful of teams who make it work in a big way so why don't other teams look at playing it football is largely a copy cat game but hardly any other teams copy this formation why?
Also Chelsea won the league a decade ago trying to make that sound like something is clutching, you would be more pertinent to look at Tuchel winning the champions league with it but then he was pilloried on here for being too defensive which this formation is by and large
Teams press us all the time knowing they can turn over possession as our players have no patterns to rely on to beat the press. The only thing we do is punt it long and lose it promptly.
Our attackers are pants but our coaching is somehow not even improving them a tad.
While this is true, the way Amorim sets up also contributes to this problem.
We commit so few players forward that even on the occasions we have an opportunity to break, there are barely any options on and it breaks down quickly. That or the chance created ends up falling the way of a defender.
The wing backs are quite a big worry for me because only Amad has demonstrated the requisite attacking quality in those positions so far. Even if by some miracle we manage to recruit well in the summer, I still feel the pitfalls of the system will ultimately let us down.
They were unlucky as they were just a few points off CL in the xG table. You could clearly see signs. We are performing worse (16th) than our actual position.
Amorim has ripped out the system for an entirely new one and saw our squad options weakened in January.
I was very much pissed off with him a couple months back and held him to account on performances, but if we do the same now you'd realise our actual in game performances have generally improved. We can now see players understand their roles but there's a clear problem with quality.
Yesterday we looked fine for the entire first half and we fielded Amass, Lindelof and Eriksen. Even then the game didn't go away from us until individual mistakes came into play. It wasn't a system or tactical issue.
No amount of coaching can fix players desire to run & work hard
I just don't care anymore. I expect us to lose most games and let's be honest, we're so dull to watch. I fell asleep during the Lyon game (I was about 5 pints in and on holiday mind you). Didn't even bother watching the Newcastle game.
It does feel like a long time I was actually truly invested at this stage of the season. Had the FA Cup to care about last year, and Europa for now, but I can't see that lasting much longer.
If he's backed he'll be a success. Honestly lads, just exercise some patience.
Next season won't be much different. Sacked in December or January at the latest. This squad doesn't fit his football at all and the club doesn't have the money to change that.
Name the only Portuguese manager other than Jose that’s won the EPL, Eddie Howe is more likely to win the EPL with Bournemouth or Palace than Amorim is with United?
Then why did we offer him the job and why did he accept it??
Makes no sense.
We have to give him 3 years at least. We are not making any progress by sacking him and his staff at presumably great expense and hiring someone else less than a year after we make a big splash to hire one of the best young coaches in Europe.
Interesting thoughts incoming.
1. Amorim will turn us into a good (maybe even great) team if he's allowed to bring in his own players and given time.
2. Do we trust those running the club to sign those players? I mean, there's every chance we're going to (at the very least) need a keeper and a striker this summer. That alone could cost near 100million. There's still then the need to get probably 4 or 5 additional players to make the formation work properly.
3. If we don't sign the correct players, Amorim will have to adapt his formation slightly to suit what he has. Post summer transfer window, the pressure will be on.
1. Amorim will turn us into a good (maybe even great) team if he's allowed to bring in his own players and given time.
2. Do we trust those running the club to sign those players? I mean, there's every chance we're going to (at the very least) need a keeper and a striker this summer. That alone could cost near 100million. There's still then the need to get probably 4 or 5 additional players to make the formation work properly.
3. If we don't sign the correct players, Amorim will have to adapt his formation slightly to suit what he has. Post summer transfer window, the pressure will be on.
We've entered the same cycle as previous managers.
Basically give him a few years and let him build his own team and it'll all be fine
Basically give him a few years and let him build his own team and it'll all be fine
I’ve spoken on this in depth lots of times over the last 6 months on here and it was the second HUGE feck up by Ratcliffe and his lot as they allowed Berrada who specialises in sponsorship and commercial deals to make footballing decisions over Ashworth who in Ratcliffe’s own words was in charge of the entire footballing department, it’s repeating the same mistakes in letting non footballing people make footballing decisions then wondering why it’s not worked out.
The mistake was not getting rid of ETH immediately after the FA Cup final which would have been a parting on a positive note and allowed a new coach funds in the summer and maybe January but I agree fully that it’s 100% on Ineos and Berrada for this season.
You do realise that we don’t play 3-4-3 right ? I constantly see people saying that we do and compare it to Chelsea under Conte or Leverkusen under Alonso or Inter under Inzaghi yet we do NOT play 3-4-3, we play 3-4-2-1 which a lot of the time is more 5-2-2-1 as unless Amad plays there our wing backs are full backs.
Chelsea under Conte had at least one winger as a wing back and the two attacking midfielders weren’t 10’s as they were wide players that would come inside whilst Inter play with two strikers in Inzaghi’s system is very much a 3-5-2/5-3-2, only Alonso could be said as playing similarly but even then the way he uses it is different and Alonso is flexible in changing things if it’s not working.
Amorim on the other hand is tactically inflexible, overly stubborn and is very defensive to the point we often only have two players in forward positions when Bruno is played as a 10 as Bruno likes to drop deep yet we’re still losing most weeks even with effectively a back 7 when Casemiro and Ugarte play together.
I like Amorim as I think he’s refreshingly honest BUT it isn’t working and for everyone saying ‘he hasn’t spent any money’ or ‘he hasn’t got his players in yet’ there’s also the flip side in that he’s not improving what he does have either, all great coaches can at least improve what they have at their disposal yet we’re not and I can already see what will happen in that we’ll struggle next year then Amorim will be sacked at Christmas and the cycle continues.
He won’t get 3 years with a 29% win rate and 48% loss rate, he’ll be gone by November 1st enfact it wouldn’t surprise me if he’s not sacked at the end of the season, SJR has form for this, fans have short memories he did the same to Dan Ashworth!
He said how great he was and what a great job he was doing then he sacked him 3 months later, Ash-worth didn’t want Amorim he wanted Eddie Howe not Southgate and now United fans would jump at Eddie Howe and a strong nucleus of British players, Newcastle are everything we used to be?
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You are living in cuckoo land. 3 seasons? What has he shown so far to warrant such a backing? I think Amorim knows he is skating on thin ice. He knows he will be eliminated and sacked if the current trajectory continues. No top club with aspiration to win will be given him 3 seasons.
It's pretty simple in my eyes, we don't play forward enough, often enough, or with enough quality.
If you spend most of your time playing football in your own half, mistakes leading to goals are going to happen, regardless of who is playing.
In my opinion that's down to both a lack of quality in our forward players, lack of passing ability in midfield and what the manager is trying to get the team to do.
It's a hard position for Amorim, but it's his job to figure something out. I don't feel like the constant possession football in tight spaces at the back is the answer for us at the moment, and I doubt we're going to win the Europa League by continuing to do it.
If you spend most of your time playing football in your own half, mistakes leading to goals are going to happen, regardless of who is playing.
In my opinion that's down to both a lack of quality in our forward players, lack of passing ability in midfield and what the manager is trying to get the team to do.
It's a hard position for Amorim, but it's his job to figure something out. I don't feel like the constant possession football in tight spaces at the back is the answer for us at the moment, and I doubt we're going to win the Europa League by continuing to do it.
Wow. Look at all that progress!!!
I get your point but he's literally had no chance so far. He's not even had one proper window.
You talk like this isn't a normal thing for clubs to do? I'd get this talk more if he'd had a summer and transfer windows where he got a real chance to make an impression, but he hasn't even had that. One winter window, that's it.
So many want a rebuild but so few have the stomach for it unless it's instantly successful.