Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches

Devil81 said:
So again we face a decision on a manager based on a cup competition. League form is a stackable offence, won't hear otherwise. Not having the squad stuff, yes it's a poor squad but it's a squad that won the Fa cup and finished top half last season.

For me huge factors are the lack of flexibility with the formation. Every man and his dog have had their say on this and I've heard ex pros and managers all say the same thing. Until he's got the players to play his system the surely should be playing a system that suits his players and then during the summer months invest to make it work to suit his vision. It's just common sense and a total neglect of the clubs ambitions and requirements. Surely someone above him should have been saying the requirement is European football rusat a bare minimum. We could realistically finish the position above the bottom three. It's actually highly likely given we will have to rotate.

The killer question now is do we trust his vision enough to blow multi millions on players that could be surplus if we sack him next season. It's a huge decision for the club.

I think it's that bigger decision they will possibly sack him. They can't afford another season like this and the risk factor involved in spending so much money on a man that isn't making it work is a scary thought.

Even the Europa league, the competition is that poor this season I'd expect all three of bottom three to have got out of the group at least. Said it from day one, if you can't win it against the sides in it there is a big issue.
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I've said it before here but it really doesn't have to be players specifically for Amorim. If players are good then they'll perform for multiple managers and coaches.

Whoever the manager is, we need a centre back, a couple of midfielders, a goalkeeper and a new forward line. Let's focus on recruitment.
 
TsuWave said:
I think people are desperate for him to succeed, especially so because he's extremely likeable - but it has been incredibly shit and the whole "needs his players" thing is always iffy, in my opinion, because a manager at this level, the level we want to be should be able to grind results with the available tools. It's the job.

I do like the guy though, but I wouldn't necessarily be mad or surprised if he got tossed to the bushes in the summer.

It's been shite
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If we had attackers who could score we’d have won more games, simple as that.

We’re creating chances, we are simply not finishing
 
Posh Red said:
Ah, the old ‘set up’ causing problems again. How would you have set the team up today?
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Started Bruno and Mount.

Even if you win Europa theres still a lot of money you need for the rebuild in finishing higher up the table. Remaining fxtures are tough and its not beyond the realms of possibility you finish 17th.
 
RedRocket9908 said:
Rashford wasnt given a proper chance by Amorim despite scoring twice in 2 consecutive games under him and clearly didnt go from scoring 30 goals in a single season to stuggling to score 10 in a season for no reason, that's clearly down either issues between him and Ten Hag or with the way he was being used and coached.
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This is so obviously true but people are so blinded by their Rashford hate that they’ll never entertain the possibility that the situation might be more nuanced. No point trying.
 
Long_Harry said:
Started Bruno and Mount.

Even if you win Europa theres still a lot of money you need for the rebuild in finishing higher up the table. Remaining fxtures are tough and its not beyond the realms of possibility you finish 17th.
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So you don’t think the manager should prioritise the Europa league?
 
TsuWave said:
the whole "needs his players" thing is always iffy, in my opinion, because a manager at this level, the level we want to be should be able to grind results with the available tools. It's the job.
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I don't think that's the job he was given. I don't think any of the media or club reports portrayed it as such either.

Was there a report or statement from the club that makes you feel that way? Or just your personal expectation of anyone coming in regardless of the specific circumstances
 
Jev said:
It’s incredible how a Manchester United manager managed to get a free ride for an entire season just by telling the fans and media they couldn’t reasonably expect anything of him. I can’t believe how many fans just bought into that. I’ll try the same next time my boss complains about my performance.
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Turns out he was correct. In fact, we (fans) already knew it to be correct because of all the constant sacking and hiring of new managers in the preceding years.

Even Rangnick, in his short time with us, assessed that the club needed "Open Heart Surgery".

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ter-united-need-open-heart-surgery-to-recover
 
The way the kids came in today and performed makes me really excited to see what other kids he brings through over the next couple of years. I don't know what combination it is of 'they're ready' v 'he's prepares them well', but regardless of whether its the identification or the preparation its a great trait not every manager has. Working with youth was one of the big pros listed from his time at Sporting, so its good to see that materialize.

Something that bothers me though - do we not have a runner in the academy we could sub in for Garnacho once in a while? Just someone else who might be able to win a 1 on 1, stretch the opposition, get in behind.

Anyway I'll be beyond disappointed in him if he doesn't spend the summer identifying good squad options amongst the youth, as we'll need them if we're going to move forward next year. I don't think playing people into form is something that can happen at United - the environment, whether it be the press or the crowd or social media just doesn't allow it. Instead it has to be survival of the fittest - if you not performing you get dropped, and its on you to find your form. For that we need a squad with competition for places, and the only way we're going to do that with the resources as constrained as they are is if we lean heavily on the youth. So yes, hopefully we see him trying lots of new faces over pre-season, and maybe even the next couple weeks.
 
I agree with prioritising the Europa but what happens if we don't win and then also miss out on money through tanking the league to win it, it's not like Jose who won a cup and was already in Europe and tanked the league we don't have that same scenario
 
UnitedSofa said:
If we had attackers who could score we’d have won more games, simple as that.

We’re creating chances, we are simply not finishing
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If we had a tactic that allowed us to have more attackers on the pitch instead of one that requires us to play with 7 defensive players (a back 5 and 2 DMs) and only 3 attackers we would create alot more chances and would score more goals.
 
NZT-One said:
I think some of your points are a bit bizarre but what about this list. What do you want to say, that United made a mistake not bringing in modern coaches with modern principles? Thats nothing anybody on here would disagree with, from my point of view. I just don't get how you use that fact against Amorim - ETH and especially Amorim build their (even if limited) reputation based on such modern principles.
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It's not really philosophy but the calibre of managers being hired where the difference is. Many of PSG's managers have gone on to have success at other clubs. Almost none have achieved the same feat at United with the exception of Moyes who won the Europa with West Ham. Erik and Amorim were from a credibility standpoint in the same bracket, one dimensional leagues (respectfully) where it's far harder to assess their competitive transitions to the premier league given the small sample size of their successes.

Sometimes calibre is often intangible because two contravening points can exist without being a contradiction. For instance Amorim perceivably at Sporting would be classed as one of the best young managers in football and so would Alonso. However, despite the two sharing this reputation Alonso is a higher calibre manager compared to Amorim. Alonso has been likened to walk into most elite jobs, Amorim was linked with one or two and none ever came to substance. If Alonso was in Amorim's position Liverpool would have bit the bullet in hiring him for instance. This is the point I'm making about the contrast between PSG's managers and United's.

I look at that PSG list and the calibre of managers dictates that they should have won the UCL within the last ten years, they have therefore underperformed. I look at the same list of United coaches and it's not surprise that the club has been like a yo-yo with regards to even qualifying for Europe let alone competing within Europe.

The overwhelming consensus in the forum last summer when Erik served up his boomerang midfield tactics was that there was no outstanding candidate to be his replacement. I would rather be wrong but critically assessing Amorim there's very little going for him. It's true that that the squad is unbalanced and lacks standout quality in certain positions but how much of this season is relative to his calibre of management? Because a line needs to be drawn in how much of this is him and how much the players is. Unfortunately many are requiring a few transfer windows to make that distinction but I think there's enough feasibility to determine some of it now.

Now I'm not advocating for Ruben to sacked but I don't see him being a success at the club and I'd be generally surprised if even after three seasons he finished in the top four.
 
RedRocket9908 said:
You are correct that no United forward is close to that output buts thats down to the coaching and more-so the tactics that have starved the forward's of oppurtunities under both Ten Hag and Amorim.
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Coaching? Not even sir Slex can fix our forwards scoring. Get real brother.
 
Raoul said:
The point was to adjust fan expectations that things would get worse, before they get better.
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And that is correct. Surely there’s a limit, though? To some fans it seems like the fact that he’s failing this badly is proof that he’s the right fit because he predicted it. A self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
TsuWave said:
I think people are desperate for him to succeed, especially so because he's extremely likeable - but it has been incredibly shit and the whole "needs his players" thing is always iffy, in my opinion, because a manager at this level, the level we want to be should be able to grind results with the available tools. It's the job.

I do like the guy though, but I wouldn't necessarily be mad or surprised if he got tossed to the bushes in the summer.

It's been shite
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Just a decent CF away from being 5th apparently.
 
Giggsyking said:
Coaching? Not even sir Slex can fix our forwards scoring. Get real brother.
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We are creating chances, some games you don't get as many, but Hojlund is never in the right place. He does not anticipate what the likes of Garnacho are going to do. That is why top goalscorers are what they are. Instinct. So in the end he gets ignored, because players think they will do a better job of scoring.
 
TsuWave said:
I think people are desperate for him to succeed, especially so because he's extremely likeable - but it has been incredibly shit and the whole "needs his players" thing is always iffy, in my opinion, because a manager at this level, the level we want to be should be able to grind results with the available tools. It's the job.

I do like the guy though, but I wouldn't necessarily be mad or surprised if he got tossed to the bushes in the summer.

It's been shite
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You only have to look as far as Ancelotti at Madrid this year. Last season with a full strength squad and Kroos they were unreal. This season they lost CBs and kroos and have looked a lot worse, only so far that tactics can go if the players aren’t good enough.
 
Jev said:
And that is correct. Surely there’s a limit, though? To some fans it seems like the fact that he’s failing this badly is prof that he’s the right fit because he predicted it. A self-fulfilling prophecy.
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The limit will be next year imo. Its either sink or swim. The poor league finish of this year will only compound the pressure to buy the best players available. If we're not in a significantly better position by Christmas, he could go. Alternatively, if we're anywhere near top 4 next year, it will be a signal to SJR and Berada to double down on the Amorim project.
 
I don’t understand the fixation over Amorim warning us ‘we have to suffer’ or telling us it’ll get worse before it gets better, how does that make it acceptable that he has 6 wins in 22 games? Well done on him on being the first manager in history to have the results he’s had and not be under an ounce of pressure and have fans chant his name every game (which I’m adamant is because he called out Rashford and other players)
 
dubplate warrior said:
You're overrating coaching. It comes down to quality of the individual more than anything else. If a goalkeeper makes lots of mistakes is it the coaches fault? If players are missing simple 5 yard passes under no pressure is it the passing drills and rondo's at fault?
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Is the coach responsible when the players do something well? If not, then we could replace Amorim really easily and see no difference on the pitch.
 
RedRocket9908 said:
If we had a tactic that allowed us to have more attackers on the pitch instead of one that requires us to play with 7 defensive players (a back 5 and 2 DMs) and only 3 attackers we would create alot more chances and would score more goals.
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This just clearly shows you don't understand the system.

The wingbacks are far from defensive, they're as much as attacking as they are defensive, we are meant to attack with five, players yes FIVE. But our wing-backs aren't capable. Well all of them bar Dorgu, because they're much more defensive minded.

The double pivot provides cover underneath the ball, allowing the wing-backs to push forward simultaneously. Amorim likes his teams to attack with five players, and generally keeps five players underneath the ball.

https://learning.coachesvoice.com/c...e pitch, Amorim,spaces in the inside channels.
 
Raoul said:
The limit will be next year imo. Its either sink or swim. The poor league finish of this year will only compound the pressure to buy the best players available. If we're not in a significantly better position by Christmas, he could go. Alternatively, if we're anywhere near top 4 next year, it will be a signal to SJR and Berada to double down on the Amorim project.
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Do you feel confident trusting his vision and letting him shape our squad in order to suit a formation his replacement is very unlikely to play? That’s the issue for me. I don’t want him sacked. Yet. But I think it would be insane to let him get rid of all our wingers while buying specialized players for a formation we could very well abandon by November.
 
Raoul said:
The limit will be next year imo. Its either sink or swim. The poor league finish of this year will only compound the pressure to buy the best players available. If we're not in a significantly better position by Christmas, he could go. Alternatively, if we're anywhere near top 4 next year, it will be a signal to SJR and Berada to double down on the Amorim project.
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I think United will have a poor season next year just not as bad as this concurrent one. There's no way a plethora of new players will hit the ground running domestically and everything gels together from one pre-season, Chelsea were in the same boat when they were signing all those young players to dump on Potter.

In order to mitigate the very likely reality of an average upcoming season Ruben has to win the Europa league. Not only due to the financial incentives helping him build for the summer but with the teams left in the Europa, if he can't that over the line I don't think he has what it takes domestically to be competitive. The length of his tenure will depend on the Europa, because any little 'friction' encountered next season as you said pressure will mount and I actually like INEOS in respect to being decisive, not waiting to see how he fares after three summers but rather judging him on the here and now which will be the beginning of the next campaign.
 
dubplate warrior said:
I agree mate. I'm really excited to be a United fan again.

I've always maintained, even in our worst moments that we have a good squad, which is better than most teams in the league. The fact we had some of the worst metrics offensively and defensively shows just how poorly we were managed. Maybe I'm talking out hopium, but I think people will be surprised how much some of our players improve.
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What has changed?
 
Ted Lasso said:
I don't think that's the job he was given. I don't think any of the media or club reports portrayed it as such either.

Was there a report or statement from the club that makes you feel that way? Or just your personal expectation of anyone coming in regardless of the specific circumstances
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I don’t even know what you’re saying here. Just comes off as bad faith. You don’t think a manager’s job is to get results? Fair enough, carry on - I have nothing for you
 
Redstain said:
I think United will have a poor season next year just not as bad as this concurrent one. There's no way a plethora of new players will hit the ground running domestically and everything gels together from one pre-season, Chelsea were in the same boat when they were signing all those young players to dump on Potter.

In order to mitigate the very likely reality of an average upcoming season Ruben has to win the Europa league. Not only due to the financial incentives helping him build for the summer but with the teams left in the Europa, if he can't that over the line I don't think he has what it takes domestically to be competitive. The length of his tenure will depend on the Europa, because any little 'friction' encountered next season as you said pressure will mount and I actually like INEOS in respect to being decisive, not waiting to see how he fares after three summers but rather judging him on the here and now which will be the beginning of the next campaign.
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That's possible, although I don't see us signing a lot of new players. Maybe 3 plus Diego Leon, who is already coming.

As for how far we could go next year, we have a clear example of Forest going from 17th to top 4 in one year, so top four should be a realistic target as well, as long as we buy a quality striker.
 
Maureen-yo said:
You only have to look as far as Ancelotti at Madrid this year. Last season with a full strength squad and Kroos they were unreal. This season they lost CBs and kroos and have looked a lot worse, only so far that tactics can go if the players aren’t good enough.
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Eh, I didn’t think Madrid were unreal last year, at all. And I also think too much is being made of their supposed “crisis”.

Copa del Rey final
Second in the league
Knocked out in the quarters vs a very good team

It happens
 
Jev said:
Do you feel confident trusting his vision and letting him shape our squad in order to suit a formation his replacement is very unlikely to play? That’s the issue for me. I don’t want him sacked. Yet. But I think it would be insane to let him get rid of all our wingers while buying specialized players for a formation we could very well abandon by November.
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That's the risk INEOS are taking and putting all their eggs in the Amorim basket. I have confidence in Amorim if he gets the players for his system, the worry for me is if those players are going to be quality or not. and not up and coming young players as he doesn't have time on his side.

One thing for me that I have faith in Amorim is that he has the balls to stick to what he wants and he will do everything for his vision. Unlike EtH who I got excited for seeing his Ajax style and then came to United and didn't want to play that style, a waste of a manager.

But Amorim can still fail, but then again, like any manager really. Everything is a risk. It's just too early to even see what Amorim can do
 
acnumber9 said:
Is the coach responsible when the players do something well? If not, then we could replace Amorim really easily and see no difference on the pitch.
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There was a long time when Ole was achieving results but being called out by posters on here for the lack of control and over reliance on individual brilliance.

For me control with and without the ball, a clear shape, a sustainable style of play, hell even clear patterns of play are a sign of coaching. But you can't turn water into wine.
 
dubplate warrior said:
There was a long time when Ole was achieving results but being called out by posters on here for the lack of control and over reliance on individual brilliance.

For me control with and without the ball, a clear shape, a sustainable style of play, hell even clear patterns of play are a sign of coaching. But you can't turn water into wine.
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I would’ve thought fans of this club, of all clubs, would understand the importance of a good manager by now.
 
UnitedSofa said:
If we had attackers who could score we’d have won more games, simple as that.

We’re creating chances, we are simply not finishing
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If I had a rocket ship, I’d be in Venus. Reality of the situation is that we can’t even win a third of our league games under him

Also, United has conceded 53 goals under Amorim, IIRC. This notion that if we had scorers - brother - we are a mess all around. Again, I like the guy, but for a set-up with 5 at the back, we concede an awful lot
 
Jev said:
Do you feel confident trusting his vision and letting him shape our squad in order to suit a formation his replacement is very unlikely to play? That’s the issue for me. I don’t want him sacked. Yet. But I think it would be insane to let him get rid of all our wingers while buying specialized players for a formation we could very well abandon by November.
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I'm confident that buying him 3 (maybe 4) high quality players will yield much better results next year. My expectation is to be in top 4 contention next year.
 
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