Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches

Insanity said:
I have never believed that formation, any formation, is a major issue. It's your approach to the game that really matters. Right now we play with six or seven defenders or defensive minded players in our XI and it's no wonder we struggle to score goals. Playing with 3 CB's, 2 defensive minded CM's and 2 WB's who are not very adept at attacking is not a recipe for a high scoring team. The best we have looked under Ruben, imo, is when we played Amad as a RWB and had more attacking players on the pitch.

We are still not very good at moving the ball out from the back and are bad at build-ups. We can hardly move the ball fast enough to put the opposition under pressure. Our slow build-up allows the opposition to regroup and retain their defensive position making it much easier to stop us. We also don't know how to high press effectively to win the ball high up the pitch and attack the opposition. Even shit teams can defend well when the play is in front of them. Teams struggle when you can effectively and constantly get behind them and ask them to defend. Counter-attack is still our most effective form of attack and in our team Garnacho is the only won with decent pace to counter-attack since we decided to let Marcus leave on loan.

My main gripe with Ruben is that despite the time and leeway he has been afforded, he hasn't been able to show much improvement in our style of play. We are not defensively solid or adept at moving the ball well or pressing or scoring goals. We are basically a nothing team that is sussed out pretty fast by the opposition and defeated. He has been in charge for more than 30 games and that is enough time to give a glimpse into the future. Unfortunately, he has shown nothing so far besides the ability to talk a good game and be charming. The worst for me is the number of PL games at home we have failed to score. There are no excuses for that.
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Pretty much. His interpretation of the formation is a major issue. We play so many defensive players.

Our build up still looks shaky, but now even our counter attacks suffer because of the sheer number of defensive players.

This kind of system has a ceiling cap. It limits how good you can be. All the league winners(from the top 5 leagues) in the past decade have never played this many defensive minded players and won a league.

He talks a good game which has given so many of our fans blind hope.

Even if he was to use Amad as a RWB, the system still has issues, because the other wing-back will still be a defensive minded player who will be tasked with attacking duties in the final 3rd where they'll likely be lacking compared to a quality winger. But I highly doubt he'll even do that too(start a winger/attacker as a wing-back. He had ample opportunity before to use him as a RWB and still preferred Dalot/Maz as wing-backs(and our record when both started as wing-backs was beyond putrid). The few games we did use Amad, our results/play look way better.
 
If he doesn't win the Europa League, I don't see how the board justify keeping him.

Either way, I'm not sure it'd pan out keeping him. There's been a large sample size where serious doubt has crept in if he can even churn out results in this league capable of top 4 finishes.
 
Raoul said:
We hired him knowing what his tactics and formation are and that we would need to commit to supporting him with new players.
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Liverpool decided not to go for him as Klopp’s replacements due to the system how Amorim plays doesn’t fit the players they have and will require more money to rebuild. It sounds simple but somehow our board missed the simplest thing.

Lack of planning and didn’t think ahead or didn’t consider other factors when they made decision. I heard this appointment was based on statistics but I doubt they even consider other factors such as financially.

They should know that we’re on limited budget, yet they appointed a young head coach that requires 3 CB, 2 double pivot midfielders, 2 wingbacks, 2 no 10, and no wingers. While this team was built for years to play back four, inverted full back, and wingers. In addition to that, lot of current players such as our young talented player like Mainoo and most of last summer signings don’t fit Amorim’s system.

I hope to be proven wrong but so far what I have witnessed that I think appointing Amorim as the new head coach has only added more new problems to the current problems because we will need even more money to upgrade more positions. It’s going to be an interesting summer transfer window.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
If he doesn't win the Europa League, I don't see how the board justify keeping him.

Either way, I'm not sure it'd pan out keeping him. There's been a large sample size where serious doubt has crept in if he can even churn out results in this league capable of top 4 finishes.
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If he wins Europa league he can leave on a high and a nice payday
 
Nobody knows how this will end. Hopefully, by integrating the youth teamers, and a couple of astute attacking signings, there can be genuine progress. I appreciate that we now have control over games and don't have abject terror over getting thrashed by teams. But that's just an extremely low bar to justify keeping him. If we aren't going to spend money to give him the players for his system, then hard decisions need to be made and early.
 
I actually think he's going to win the Europa but without I'd very much worry about recruitment. Even with champions League football to offer i think you night still see young value signings from other leagues meaning there is no guarantee of success and even in a best case scenario may need a few months to find their way in the league.

There is no scenario for me that doesn't include him getting the players that are currently struggling to get in a win in the prem right now to go up a level. I would be floored by a top 4 finish next year, don't think it's even fair to set that goal. 6-8 should be what he's judged on.
 
stepic said:
This is a sure fire way of never getting better as a football team - great idea.

No thanks, let’s get the players who are capable of playing a more controlled, modern system used to it this year and replace the ones that can’t in the summer. Which is what we’re doing. Thankfully the manager and board can see the bigger picture compared to a chunk of very short sighted fans.
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No, what he's doing is a sure fire way to never getting better. The proof is this seasons results and performances. We get to the summer window either way.

If he needs new players and a proper pre season to implement his ideas, then fine. Quite what having a bunch of confused, languid performances this season adds to that I don't know.
 
This discussion is so tiresome at this point.

The Wolves games highlighted that simply a good striker will make worlds of difference.
Complete overhaul might be needed to race for the title.
To get to top 6 we need competent striker, wide attacker and goalkeeper. That's all.

We are not losing games because we get outplayed. We are losing games because all our goals come from midfielders and defenders.
Even inexperienced youngster Obi was much better and more effective than Hojlund.
That Mount performance was something else too..
With competent number 9 and 7, Wolves games ends in 3-1 win EASILY.
 
The logical conclusion to this disasterpiece is giving him the summer to chop and change, buying players to suit his system (and perhaps selling the odd player to raise funds we’d rather not let go, Garnachio?) only to be underwhelming and be sacked 10-15 games in, leaving us in the same position we started prior his arrival but with an even further disjointed squad, less money in the bank & built to a system no other manager could come in and play.
 
I like Ruben but he has to show something to convince the board that he can be given freedom to make his own squad to suit his style of play. I hope he wins europa but if he doesn't I don't think he'll get much backing in the summer given the performances in the league.
 
Might be an unpopular opinion but I think our game has improved much under him. The results don't come because we lack strikers that can score. But under EtH we got destroyed by basically any team in the PL, that is not the case now. We regained some control in midfield and this is what I would call an improvement.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
Pretty much. His interpretation of the formation is a major issue. We play so many defensive players.

Our build up still looks shaky, but now even our counter attacks suffer because of the sheer number of defensive players.

This kind of system has a ceiling cap. It limits how good you can be. All the league winners(from the top 5 leagues) in the past decade have never played this many defensive minded players and won a league.

He talks a good game which has given so many of our fans blind hope.

Even if he was to use Amad as a RWB, the system still has issues, because the other wing-back will still be a defensive minded player who will be tasked with attacking duties in the final 3rd where they'll likely be lacking compared to a quality winger. But I highly doubt he'll even do that too(start a winger/attacker as a wing-back. He had ample opportunity before to use him as a RWB and still preferred Dalot/Maz as wing-backs(and our record when both started as wing-backs was beyond putrid). The few games we did use Amad, our results/play look way better.
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The system doesn’t suit the PL and we need about 7/8 players to fit into it. It’s a disaster of an appointment.
It would be a cheaper rebuild to sack Amorim and revert to a back 4 manager. We have good wingers and defence to build on.
Sticking with Amorim is a big big gamble right now and if we sell players like Garnacho and Mainoo to play his way is going to send the club down or root us to the bottom half of the table for a long, long time.
 
Raoul said:
I wouldn't get attached to any player at this point. The club has to be merciless in its pursuit of winning again, and a central part of that means having the ruthlessness to sell anyone if need be in order to buy to accomodate the coach's perferred tactics and formation.

As for hiring him mid season - that was apparently a Berada project. He seems to have been a fan of Ruben's and insisted it happen then, or not at all. At that point, there weren't any big name managers available who met Ratcliffe and Berada's profile, and there likely wouldn't have been until this summer. So once the ETH toxicity began to spill over, it seems they decided they had to move swiftly and decisively.
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Berrada is here to sign sponsorship deals, not make big football decisions. Sacking the DoF, who is actually qualified to make the decision, to force that through is a huge red flag. Especially when Ashworth's reservations were also shared by Liverpool.

I'm still sceptical that we are going to recruit our way out of this. We're complaining about a lack of athleticism for example. But don't we have a new aggressive ball winning DM who actually played for Amorim? And is he playing better than Casemiro? And didn't we buy an athletic WB in January? He gets up and down but lacks any real quality or impact yet (let's give him time). The consensus on here was we had a good first Ineos window, and now people think we need an overhaul again. We will be shopping in the same stores.

My personal cynicism tells me as well that for the athleticism hype, we'll sign some McFred regens and then under next manager we'll be back to saying we lack quality etc.
 
soapythecat said:
The system doesn’t suit the PL and we need about 7/8 players to fit into it. It’s a disaster of an appointment.
It would be a cheaper rebuild to sack Amorim and revert to a back 4 manager. We have good wingers and defence to build on.
Sticking with Amorim is a big big gamble right now and if we sell players like Garnacho and Mainoo to play his way is going to send the club down or root us to the bottom half of the table for a long, long time.
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We need 7/8 players irrespective of the manager and the system, there is no quick fix with the formation or a new manager. We have two wingers one who is currently injured and has looked very good for a short spell and the other is massively inconsistent.

I don’t like this formation but we have the same problems whatever formation we play. It’s a huge gamble sticking with Amorim, he’s only won six league games, we might not win another one in the league before the end of the season and will most likely not even finish as high as we currently are the table.

The club are going to have to roll the dice though and hope that some better recruitment will help things click. They can’t afford to sack him and pay compensation for a replacement so it’s shopping in the bargain bin for a manager whether it’s at the end of this season or during the next one.
 
Toshey said:
This discussion is so tiresome at this point.

The Wolves games highlighted that simply a good striker will make worlds of difference.
Complete overhaul might be needed to race for the title.
To get to top 6 we need competent striker, wide attacker and goalkeeper. That's all.

We are not losing games because we get outplayed. We are losing games because all our goals come from midfielders and defenders.
Even inexperienced youngster Obi was much better and more effective than Hojlund.
That Mount performance was something else too..
With competent number 9 and 7, Wolves games ends in 3-1 win EASILY.
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If only things would be that simple, I think we are at least 6-7 very good players away for top6, with this current set-up which in general just doesn't work well in the PL.
We've seen the same players we are moaning about play better under different circumstances, under different managers and in different systems. Hojlund, Garnacho, Rashford and Bruno all scored goals in the past.
Talking about a title race is a complete utopia at this point.
 
I do like many aspects of Amorim, he has a good energy about him, seems committed and sometimes is far too open with his realism about the current situation.

He needs at least a pre-season and full season, that's without doubt as he had inherited a v v difficult situation. He has to inspire a squad who seem completely lost; and also somehow instil his way of playing. He also has to convince us, the Man Utd fans of his pedigree, so we can all can go on a journey. So he needs time.

We need a spark... a Mason Mount to shine for example, be a game changer, a bit of story, similar to Amad earlier in the season.

I also think he is learning how difficult the Premiership is. And I also think he needs to show some flexibility in his tactics.

But he hasn't many players he can really depend on to produce the quality we need.

We have no attacking threat. I don't think any manager could do much with what we have.
 
Looks like Milan are sacking Conceicao at the end of the season. He won three leagues with Porto, so maybe the Portuguese league isn’t a great place to be signing managers from right now. Amorim is looking worse than AVB. I wouldn’t give him a huge amount of money or even the summer if he can’t win the Europa. As our league form has been disastrous since he has taken over.

Someone made a great point, if Ashworth had got his way and we got Southgate. Would people have accepted this formation or league form? No, so I don’t know why people are so accepting of Amorim. He has shown nothing in his six months that he’s the right man for us.
 
The thing is Amorim seems to be very stubborn, he seems to play the same formation no matter what, if your losing and it’s not working maybe change things up a bit, have a plan b.

Curiously Porto is going through the same thing, young manager that wants to play 3421, in his case, with a libero that plays like a centre back when defending, and as a midfielder when attacking.

Fans are bit divided, some blame the players, because we have been crap for years, some the manager, but at least when losing he is able to change up to a 4-3-3 or whatever.

Amorims says it’s the only thing he knows, well he can learn, if the players can, so can he.

Vitor Pereira is using the same tactic as well and it is working, but I’m sure he is able to change tactics if needed, he played 4-3-3 high pressing for years.
 
I just don't think it should be based on winning the Europa, as its just not going to be easy, no match is easy for this team due to its obvious attacking flaws. It would be massively impressive if he can drag this corpse to a trophy.
 
Say whatever you want to say about tactics and formation but the decision making from our players in every phase of play is shocking.

We always talk about keeper making mistakes leading to goal, but the amount of balls that either get cleared out of line or straight to the opposition forward by our keeper is alarming. It’s ridiculous how many times we give our position due to this.

These players would rather dribble out from the back into a crowd of players instead of making a simple pass that would bypass a press from the opposition and free up space.

The amount of forward runs that get ignored is shocking, a simple ball over the top could open the opposition defence but the ball carrier would just check back and recycle the ball.

Selfish play, every game there are atleast two chances that could have been put away if the ball was passed to a player in a better position.

Players not making runs or poor positions, the timing with our players is always off, it’s either they arrive too earlier in the box or too late.

Lastly the chances wasted infront of goal. I don’t want to finger point but our players are just not clinical in this area.
 
Dembeza said:
Say whatever you want to say about tactics and formation but the decision making from our players in every phase of play is shocking.

We always talk about keeper making mistakes leading to goal, but the amount of balls that either get cleared out of line or straight to the opposition forward by our keeper is alarming. It’s ridiculous how many times we give our position due to this.

These players would rather dribble out from the back into a crowd of players instead of making a simple pass that would bypass a press from the opposition and free up space.

The amount of forward runs that get involved is shocking, a simple ball over the top could open the opposition defence but the ball carrier would just check back and recycle the ball.

Selfish play, every game there are atleast two chances that could have been put away if the ball was passed to a player in a better position.

Players not making runs or poor positions, the timing with our players is always off, it’s either they arrive too earlier in the box or too late.

Lastly the chances wasted infront of goal. I don’t want to finger point but our players are just not clinical in this area.
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It's infuriating that this is still an issue, and has been for years.
 
Bojan11 said:
Looks like Milan are sacking Conceicao at the end of the season. He won three leagues with Porto, so maybe the Portuguese league isn’t a great place to be signing managers from right now. Amorim is looking worse than AVB. I wouldn’t give him a huge amount of money or even the summer if he can’t win the Europa. As our league form has been disastrous since he has taken over.

Someone made a great point, if Ashworth had got his way and we got Southgate. Would people have accepted this formation or league form? No, so I don’t know why people are so accepting of Amorim. He has shown nothing in his six months that he’s the right man for us.
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Conceição did good at Porto, Benfica had arguably the best squad and later Sporting and he won 3 titles but the thing is, if you’re managing one of the big 3 you have a 33,33 % change of being champion.

Maybe a bit less when Amorim took over but still the title is decided between 3 teams and a lot of teams are cannon fodder.

The premier league is much more competitive and the pressure at Sporting is nothing compared to United
 
Dembeza said:
Say whatever you want to say about tactics and formation but the decision making from our players in every phase of play is shocking.

We always talk about keeper making mistakes leading to goal, but the amount of balls that either get cleared out of line or straight to the opposition forward by our keeper is alarming. It’s ridiculous how many times we give our position due to this.

These players would rather dribble out from the back into a crowd of players instead of making a simple pass that would bypass a press from the opposition and free up space.

The amount of forward runs that get involved is shocking, a simple ball over the top could open the opposition defence but the ball carrier would just check back and recycle the ball.

Selfish play, every game there are atleast two chances that could have been put away if the ball was passed to a player in a better position.

Players not making runs or poor positions, the timing with our players is always off, it’s either they arrive too earlier in the box or too late.

Lastly the chances wasted infront of goal. I don’t want to finger point but our players are just not clinical in this area.
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I don’t think there’s any doubt most of the players are crap, but maybe they could play a little less crappy with better managing, that’s the question.

You do have to buy quality players, no doubt about that.
 
soapythecat said:
The system doesn’t suit the PL and we need about 7/8 players to fit into it. It’s a disaster of an appointment.
It would be a cheaper rebuild to sack Amorim and revert to a back 4 manager. We have good wingers and defence to build on.
Sticking with Amorim is a big big gamble right now and if we sell players like Garnacho and Mainoo to play his way is going to send the club down or root us to the bottom half of the table for a long, long time.
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How do you know the system doesn't suit the PL when we've not actually had a decent 11 in the system yet to show that?
 
Garethw said:
What’s the point of a manager then? I thought they were supposed to get the best out of the players?

The squad is crap but it is nowhere near as bad as it shown over the last 6 months.

Amorim has failed. We can’t score, we don’t control the midfield and despite playing half a team of defenders we concede goals for fun.

What on earth has he done to get this unequivocal support? It’s bonkers! The guy is a complete spoofer!

Every single team in the PL has worked out how to play against his system. And because he’s so damn stubborn and won’t adapt his tactics, we’re screwed.

The only way it works is if we somehow stumble on signing 2-3 truly world class players that can individually create and score goals.
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To build a team that can win stuff. Identify what positions we need to improve on, put players together who compliment each other. Get the right attributes in the right areas of the pitch.

But managers can't radically change individual footballers. They're not miracle workers. He can't make Hojlund better in the air or make Ugarte a top class passer of the ball.

You have to buy that in.
 
I don't think anyone can argue that we have regressed since EtH left.
The players look uncomfortable still in this formation, which has been found out already by opponents.
There's been next to no improvements from any players bar possibly Bruno and Garnacho under Amorim, it's easy to say he is under performing to an alarming level.

Yet, I still feel we need to stick it out and give the squad an opportunity to rebuild on the summer. It's a gamble for sure but I think it's the best option for the way forward.
 
Deco10Legend said:
I don’t think there’s any doubt most of the players are crap, but maybe they could play a little less crappy with better managing, that’s the question.

You do have to buy quality players, no doubt about that.
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I highly doubt they can play a little less crap because most of the points I raised are individual errors or limitations that we have seen under Ten Hag as well.

The system is there for all of use to see, with better players who can make the right decisions and pick the right passes we should be a better a team.

We actually have players who can’t or don’t want to complement each other.
 
Coxy said:
How do you know the system doesn't suit the PL when we've not actually had a decent 11 in the system yet to show that?
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Ok, his system doesn’t suit the PL. You only have to watch us to see this is the case. It needs 11 specialists which isn’t going to happen and we don’t have the money for. It’s too rigid and he is too inflexible.
Even with a team of players, of which many have finished in European places in this league and on trophies, the system has been exposed and beaten over and over again, whilst creating little.
If you think Amorim and his system is suited to the PL then good on you, but i fear your setting up for disappointment next season.
 
Champ said:
The players look uncomfortable still in this formation, which has been found out already by opponents.
There's been next to no improvements from any players bar possibly Bruno and Garnacho under Amorim, it's easy to say he is under performing to an alarming level.
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I agree with players looking uncomfortable, but there is reason why Ten Hag mentioned that he could not implement the Ajax style here and throughout his tenure there was no resemblance of a playing styles.

We never looked like a team under Ten Hag, the players are still doing the very same mistakes now that they did then.

I wouldn’t go as far as saying the formation has been found out already when we haven’t even fully implement it with the right set of players
 
soapythecat said:
The system doesn’t suit the PL and we need about 7/8 players to fit into it. It’s a disaster of an appointment.
It would be a cheaper rebuild to sack Amorim and revert to a back 4 manager. We have good wingers and defence to build on.
Sticking with Amorim is a big big gamble right now and if we sell players like Garnacho and Mainoo to play his way is going to send the club down or root us to the bottom half of the table for a long, long time.
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But we don't have good wingers.

We only have two to begin with. Garnacho and Amad. Amad hasn't shown yet he can give us a full season without significant injury problems. Garnacho has various issues. Those issues will remain even if he's switched to a traditional wing role(barely different from how he's currently playing anyway). He doesn't suddenly get improved decision making by moving a few yards wider.

Neither have hit 10 league goals yet.

So two young wingers, neither having hit double figures yet. Along with a striker with no goal scoring record.

No formation can help with that.
 
I feel really bad for him, he's been dealt an absolutely terrible hand. However in addition to that he's had an absolute stinker in terms of results. We have just declined constantly week upon week and there hasn't really been a period of form where I've felt positive about the manager. The only positivity I've felt has been just before the international break when he got a couple of dead rubber results to take the pressure off.

I understand the fact we are prioritising the Europa but losing game after game after is just not good enough I'm afraid. I don't think he's been given a fair crack of the whip given the timing of his appointment but simply put, other managers in worse positions have outperformed him massively.

We need to give the squad a consistent period of time to get better but it's really hard to invest heavily in Amorim when he's been so so bad.
 
I can't give him a hard time when he does not have a single forward capable of 20 goals.
 
Don’t understand the people saying he’s out of his depth etc. he’s been set up to fail this season… INEOS signed players for ETH at the start of the season, and instead of sacking him in the summer then bringing in Amorim they waited. Amorim wanted to come in the summer but didn’t get that option. I guarantee he’ll be cooking once he gets a clinical ST and a few additions to the squad.
 
What happens when we finally get this system and the players it needs after 2 years and £300m and then the other managers figure out how to play against it?

My fear isn't the system, my fear is his absolute insistence on playing one way.
 
Seaside Aggro said:
He lost today to a manger who joined Wolves looking doomed in December and has pulled off a 55% win record with a much worse squad.
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This is a good point. People always act like a manager needs 2 years to get any sort of tactics working. Yet every season we see a lesser club appoint someone and get it looking effective quickly.
 
Raoul said:
Amorim must have seen something incredibly appalling about Rashford to kick him to the curb in only six weeks of being at the club. If that something was a lack of effort in training (as many think it was based on Amorim's subsequent comments) then he was completely justified in getting rid of him. In an ideal world, Amorim would've inherited the 30 goal Rashford of two seasons ago. Instead he got the player of one season ago, and the fact that his private life was being publicized by way of his DM habits, probably made the decision to get rid much easier.
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Or he was under pressure to squeeze out big earners. Casemiro featured in just 4 of 13 league games before the window closed. He then played in each of the next 7 after that before he’s been rested for Europa for the last two. I’m sure there’s more to it but I’m convinced it was a factor.

Having looked at it a bit more. Casemiro played 19 minutes across 8 games in all competitions while the window was open. It was definitely a factor.
 
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I've purposely avoided looking at the table but feck me, we're 2 points ahead of West Ham who are 17th.

It's not even a fantasy that we could finish one or two places above the relegation zone. Appreciate it was never going to be a quick fix but seeing some of the excuses that this is just one of those things is crazy. We've seen many shite squads and poor seasons at United and other top clubs but never this bad.
 
2 man midfield said:
This is what you get when you hire a system coach. If you don’t have the players to play their system, you need to buy some. Otherwise you get the ugly displays we’ve seen where we try and play 352 despite clearly being terrible at it. And in his defence, he didn’t want to come in without a pre-season and transfer window, presumably because he knew it would look something like this.

All we can do is back him and see what happens. The way I see it there’s no point in hiring someone, asking them to turn around your oil tanker which also happens to be on fire, then sacking him before he’s even found out where the extinguishers are kept.
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You’d think pre-season was two months the way some of you guys go on. It’s literally like 3 weeks and even in that time when you’re a big club most of it is travelling. You trying to tell me in the time he’s been here he hasn’t had 3 weeks to coach.
 
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