Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches

Looks like Milan are sacking Conceicao at the end of the season. He won three leagues with Porto, so maybe the Portuguese league isn’t a great place to be signing managers from right now. Amorim is looking worse than AVB. I wouldn’t give him a huge amount of money or even the summer if he can’t win the Europa. As our league form has been disastrous since he has taken over.

Someone made a great point, if Ashworth had got his way and we got Southgate. Would people have accepted this formation or league form? No, so I don’t know why people are so accepting of Amorim. He has shown nothing in his six months that he’s the right man for us.
I know, i just saw a post in beckham thread saying he is all celebrity dude and not elite for us in 1999. People here man...
 
If your striker options are really bad why would you play a formation that relies so heavily on a top striker to get goals?
 
If your striker options are really bad why would you play a formation that relies so heavily on a top striker to get goals?
I think the answer is that Amorim doesn't look at the current squad/situation, but only focuses on his idea and ideals.

So he sacrifices this season for the long term gain that starts from next season, where some players will depart and other players will come here.

Whether this is the best, I'm not sure, but it seems like the management have accepted this.
 
And where you have 6 or 7 defensive minded players on the pitch every game more or less, it's true we need a goalscorer but we also need more goals from everywhere
Why don’t any of the press ask him that after games when he says we need goals, I’d be asking why he plays 7 defensive players every week then?
 
If we are buying Cunha while having a lot of players who are no10 or can play on that position (Bruno, Garnacho, Mount, Zirkzee, Mainoo) i wonder does he see Amad as long term solution on right wingback?
It feels like all the positionally ambiguous misfits for his system tend to congregate in one of the number 10 roles. Garnacho, Zirkzee and Mainoo don't really fit any of the positions in his system. Fernandes will always find a place in the team but the same could be said for him.

It'll be interesting to see what the future holds for some of them beyond the summer because if we don't get European football next season, the squad will be pretty bloated in those positions.
 
That's the risk INEOS are taking and putting all their eggs in the Amorim basket. I have confidence in Amorim if he gets the players for his system, the worry for me is if those players are going to be quality or not. and not up and coming young players as he doesn't have time on his side.

One thing for me that I have faith in Amorim is that he has the balls to stick to what he wants and he will do everything for his vision. Unlike EtH who I got excited for seeing his Ajax style and then came to United and didn't want to play that style, a waste of a manager.

But Amorim can still fail, but then again, like any manager really. Everything is a risk. It's just too early to even see what Amorim can do

I'm very dubious as to how much of that vaunted style was down to Ten Hag.

Given total control and vast resources at United. I think we did see Ten Hags style and it was nonsensical dogshit.
 
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Classic hindsight is 20/20 argument. It would be better if you said both ETH and Amorim aren’t good enough. Waiting around for ETH to come good was a mistake after the FA Cup win, and it would have been a mistake to allow him to continue.
When I said even worse mistake, I was already implying that the way we went about the ETH situation in the summer was also a mistake.
 
You summarised most fair criticisms, one thing you picked up on, which I don’t see discussed on here is when speaking of the job of a new manager is to get the best out of the squad inherited. Most united fans seem to live under the spectre of Fergie, where they’re expecting any new managerial appointment to ultimately usher in another dynastic era, and therefore prepared to wait for any new manager to buy in his own squad.

Whereas every other club, in every tier of football, the expectation is primarily to get the most out of the current group of players, even Bayern and co. would say to a new hire, more or less “here’s your players, get on with it’.
With us it’s like we can’t judge until any new appointment has spent half a billion on new players.

But it depends on the players available doesn't it?

There's zero point putting improve current players at top of the list when you know they're nowhere near good enough.

Top of the list for any United manager right now is helping the club rebuild the team via outs and ins.
 
It's not that black and white. If he signed a proven goalscorer, I'm sure his win rate wouldn't be as low as it is now, but I don't think it would be a significantly higher win rate. We'd still be boring to watch most games and we'd likely continue to lose the midfield battle vs athletlic teams who outnumber our 2 man midfield.

Agreed! If we're all being honest then we should be admitting that we don't really have a clue what needs to be done to fix our current issues aside from overhauling the entire team and hoping the next new 11 players will be better
 
But it depends on the players available doesn't it?

There's zero point putting improve current players at top of the list when you know they're nowhere near good enough.

Top of the list for any United manager right now is helping the club rebuild the team via outs and ins.
The manager shouldn't rebuild the team. That's exactly what has led us to having players who are nowhere near good enough, as you put it
 
If there is no point in improving the current players because they're not good enough and must be transferred out, then there is no point in teaching them 3-4-3 either.
 
Looks like Milan are sacking Conceicao at the end of the season. He won three leagues with Porto, so maybe the Portuguese league isn’t a great place to be signing managers from right now. Amorim is looking worse than AVB. I wouldn’t give him a huge amount of money or even the summer if he can’t win the Europa. As our league form has been disastrous since he has taken over.

Someone made a great point, if Ashworth had got his way and we got Southgate. Would people have accepted this formation or league form? No, so I don’t know why people are so accepting of Amorim. He has shown nothing in his six months that he’s the right man for us.

I think Southgate would have exceeded expectations, I've always had this subjective view on him even before Amorim's appointment. Not saying he'd win United the league, but I reckon he could potentially do far better than many make out. I also believe Thomas Frank would have been a better transition from Erik Ten Hag. Regardless of Ashworth's dismissal, he would have been the more credible decision maker in choosing a manager compared to Berrada.

Omar as far as I'm concerned has a bad strike against his name given his recommendation for Ruben. It's obviously well coveted that it was his choice which is madness considering he's the CEO, even Wilcox being a technical director by association of roles should have been choosing the manager over Berrada. The club is continuing to reap what it sows by way of the poor ownership which is impacting the leadership in the hierarchy.

Amorim is certainly accountable for where the team is right now. Because one things for certain, if he came in and hit the ground running fans wouldn't be applauding the players for it, he would be getting the majority of the praise. But when I look at INEOS I personally refuse to call for Ruben to be sacked this season.

Next season the gloves are off but INEOS are just as culpable for the concurrent situation at present.
 
We’re comparing them as players. Jimenez has scored four more open play goals in the league this season. They’ve outscored us by ten and have an extra ten points.

4 open play goals in 4 games from Hojlund are possible 4 game changing goals, 4 possible wins and 12 more points.

There are games like the Wolves one where if Hojlund fecking passes to Dorgu or scores his easy chance, we win easily.
 
If there is no point in improving the current players because they're not good enough and must be transferred out, then there is no point in teaching them 3-4-3 either.

Why? We're not getting rid of the entire team are we this summer.

About 7 of the current starters will likely be starting next season.
 
If there is no point in improving the current players because they're not good enough and must be transferred out, then there is no point in teaching them 3-4-3 either.

What's the point in playing 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 with bad players just for the sake of finishing higher in the table when PL season is long over for us?
And how do you know in different formation our attackers will suddenly start scoring?
 
First off, we haven’t had bad managers. We have lots of issues, and they don‘t disappear magically when the next manager gets to work.

The squad has improved over the last three years, but not enough. Biggest glaring issue is the striker position. We‘ve had three expensive wingers as well who did not work out.

Those two problems are enough to throw a team down the table.

When Amorim came in, I said he would have the same problems as Ten Hag. He does.

Formation and tactics aren‘t a main reason why we are where we are, although Amorim could have won more games with more pragmatic adaptive tactical decisions.

But he hasn‘t shown enough for me to trust him with a new season. Not enough wins, not enough improvement.

We need a new manager and a couple quality signings. One signing won‘t be enough unless no guaranteed starter ever gets injured.

Maybe the same problems as ETH but worse results.

I know we're are being forced to accept the "rebuild" narrative and so far, I am swallowing it but it's starting to give me indigestion.

Should Amorim have done better this season in the league? Absolutely! Yes, there are mitigating circumstances but that doesn't make Amorim bulletproof.

My own opinion is that he will get two more transfer windows (summer 25 and winter 25/26) before the executioner make a decision.

If Amorim had won more Prem games this season then this season would not really have been included in any future review of his performance-it would and should have been a free pass but due to our results being so crap (only a few points away from the team above the relegation zone) then he's forcing the powers that be to include this season as part of any future review. If we start off badly next season and come Oct/Nov we are hovering around 15th then he's put himself under enormous pressure.
 
Agreed! If we're all being honest then we should be admitting that we don't really have a clue what needs to be done to fix our current issues aside from overhauling the entire team and hoping the next new 11 players will be better

You build a squad based on attributes that are not tied to a particular manager. You have a long term view. You don't panic buy. You don't overpay. You do what every successful team has done for years. You buy good players and you move players on if they don't work out for whatever reason that is. We don't need 11 new players. We need 3-4 this summer and then you do the same the next summer.

You build on a good foundation.

You do the complete opposite of what United have done for the past 15 years:
- Overpaying for players
- Overpaying salaries
- Giving any young player who shows promise a silly contract
- Allowing players to behave badly with no consequences
- Keeping injury prone players for years and years because they are good when they are fit
- Not planning in advance for your transfer business o you panic buy
- Buying players with known attitude issues
- Buying players for big money that are on the wane
- Buying players that don't fit the sort of football you want to play or that the squad is built around.

The manager shouldn't rebuild the team. That's exactly what has led us to having players who are nowhere near good enough, as you put it

Yep. The manager can inform the people above him what he thinks the team needs but the recruitment should be entirely above their heads. You can't buy players the manager doesn't want to play but you shouldn't be lead by the manager at all.
 
Should Amorim have done better this season in the league? Absolutely! Yes, there are mitigating circumstances but that doesn't make Amorim bulletproof.

My own opinion is that he will get two more transfer windows (summer 25 and winter 25/26) before the executioner make a decision.

Which is exactly how it should happen. It doesn't matter if you are Pep or Klopp. If you have a couple of transfer windows and a pre-season and you aren't showing that you are on the right track then you are sacked. Its really really really simple. You get some time and you sink or swim. Part of that time is getting a pre-season and some players bought for you.

Arsenal stuck with Arteta because he was showing clear signs of being on the right path. If he hadn't been, he would be sacked. I think that if they don't win the CL this season then there is a chance he will be replaced at the end of next season if they finish that one without a major trophy. You are judged on where things were when you take over vs when they are currently. Expectations change as you improve.

I like Amorim and I think hes been dealt an absolutely bum hand by us. I don't think hes doing an amazing job but I think very very few managers would be doing that much better right now and those are managers that play a style of football far more suited to this squad.

I think its pointless trying to draw any conclusions from this season. Give him the summer and next season and if things aren't good still then get rid. The main thing we need to start to get right is recruitment. Managers come and go. Quality in your squad is vital.
 
4 open play goals in 4 games from Hojlund are possible 4 game changing goals, 4 possible wins and 12 more points.

There are games like the Wolves one where if Hojlund fecking passes to Dorgu or scores his easy chance, we win easily.
And they’re possibly not. And that would be a maximum of 8 points gained. So we’d still find ourselves adrift of the mighty Fulham.
 
I'm very dubious as to how much if that vaunted style was down to Ten Hag.

Given total control and vast resources at United. I think we did see Ten Hags style and it was nonsensical dogshit.
Followed Ajax much?

Considering none of the managers before or after him got Ajax playing in such a style.

Closest was Peter Bosz who uses a kamikaze attacking style of play which is very attractive but doesn't really last for a longer period of time.

I think Erik ten Hag was a bit lucky that he had wonderful footballers in that first team with Frenkie, de Ligt, Tadic, Ziyech, Blind, Mazraoui and Tagliafico, Onana. What was even maybe more impressive was how quickly he and Overmars built a second team that was still quite a force in Europe.

Amorim called it the best team outside of the top 5 leagues. It was the team with Timber, Martinez, Gravenberch, Alvarez, Haller, Antony, Berghuis, Tadic etc.

Ajax has a stereotype of the type of football they should play. The joke is, that in the last 20 years, very few managers have gotten them to play that type of football and win. Erik ten Hag was one of the few.
 
What's the point in playing 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 with bad players just for the sake of finishing higher in the table when PL season is long over for us?
And how do you know in different formation our attackers will suddenly start scoring?
If there is no point to playing anything with bad players then United should just forfeit all the games. They're not getting relegated.

Both of the ideas are false. The manager is going to have to use at least 50% some of this squad over the next few seasons because there are only so many transfers you can plausibly do in 3-4 transfer windows. So the manager ought to teach them the 3-4-3 and try to improve their general level.
 
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And they’re possibly not. And that would be a maximum of 8 points gained. So we’d still find ourselves adrift of the mighty Fulham.
Clearly they were using a small sample size. Apply the same logic to the rest of the season.

It’s really not difficult. We have possibly the worst striker in the league and are massively lacking goals so it’s nonsense to say that any other striker wouldn’t make a difference. A better striker would finish a lot of the chances he’s fecked up and would create more chances than he has both for himself and others.

That isn’t where the influence ends though, a better striker leads teams to act differently, it creates space for others, it means teams aren’t so confident to push players forward. You then have the less tangible aspects on top of that - fear factor, momentum, team confidence cannot be underestimated.


You compare this current attack to the ones in recent past.

Martial, Rashford, Zlatan, Greenwood, Ibra, Cavani, Lukaku etc


The difference is so stark. I can’t stress enough that it’s not just the goals a good attack brings that are so important, it’s how that threat changes the way the opposition plays. Currently teams have no fear in throwing players forward again and again. That’s never used to be the case even post Ferguson and it’s not something Amorim can do anything about until he has the players to put on the pitch.
 
Clearly they were using a small sample size. Apply the same logic to the rest of the season.

It’s really not difficult. We have possibly the worst striker in the league and are massively lacking goals so it’s nonsense to say that any other striker wouldn’t make a difference. A better striker would finish a lot of the chances he’s fecked up and would create more chances than he has both for himself and others.

That isn’t where the influence ends though, a better striker leads teams to act differently, it creates space for others, it means teams aren’t so confident to push players forward. You then have the less tangible aspects on top of that - fear factor, momentum, team confidence cannot be underestimated.


You compare this current attack to the ones in recent past.

Martial, Rashford, Zlatan, Greenwood, Ibra, Cavani, Lukaku etc


The difference is so stark. I can’t stress enough that it’s not just the goals a good attack brings that are so important, it’s how that threat changes the way the opposition plays. Currently teams have no fear in throwing players forward again and again. That’s never used to be the case even post Ferguson and it’s not something Amorim can do anything about until he has the players to put on the pitch.
Is 33 games over a 38 game season a small sample size? Regardless, 4 goals across four games can’t be worth 12 points.

I’m not arguing that Hojlund is good or that there isn’t a big difference to be had with a quality striker. I’m arguing that Jimenez isn’t that much better than him that we should find ourselves 10 points off Fulham.
 
Is 33 games over a 38 game season a small sample size? Regardless, 4 goals across four games can’t be worth 12 points.

I’m not arguing that Hojlund is good or that there isn’t a big difference to be had with a quality striker. I’m arguing that Jimenez isn’t that much better than him that we should find ourselves 10 points off Fulham.

Especially not when Arsenal can make a DM and effective forward but don't say that loudly
 
The appointment is starting to show how bad it was. He may or may not be a good coach (doesn’t look like it in PL standards) but the squad was totally unsuited to his style. The club were committing to buying a full squad almost to accommodate him - was never going ti work.
Wrong manager at the wrong time and the results are painful for United fans. Utterly painful.
If he’s not sacked at the end of the season, they we are in deep trouble. He will be gone a few months into the season and the squad will be a fit for no manager.
I‘m not seeing this at all. The squad struggled to play the previous 4-1-4-1/4-2-3-1 as well. Playing out the back has been inconsistent; teams are pressing us high. Our attack was and is ineffective.

It‘s not the formation & strategy that is the issue. Getting the players to perform is.
 
I‘m not seeing this at all. The squad struggled to play the previous 4-1-4-1/4-2-3-1 as well. Playing out the back has been inconsistent; teams are pressing us high. Our attack was and is ineffective.

It‘s not the formation & strategy that is the issue. Getting the players to perform is.

These days, just about everybody is so overly obsessed with statistics and modern gimmick terms such as half spaces and double pivots. F*cking nonsense. The object of the game has not and never will change. You need QUALITY players, able to prevent the other team from scoring and provide and finish chances your own team creates.
 
These days, just about everybody is so overly obsessed with statistics and modern gimmick terms such as half spaces and double pivots. F*cking nonsense. The object of the game has not and never will change. You need QUALITY players, able to prevent the other team from scoring and provide and finish chances your own team creates.

Thats because those "nonsense" things are what allows a set of average but well drilled players to compete with better manned sides and allows the better manned sides to destroy chaotic teams full of star players.

Look at the recent games between RM and Arsenal and tell me how many of the RM players would get in the Arsenal side. A lot of them. I would wager that if you picked a side combining both squads you would end up with more than half from RM. Difference was tactics and set up. Arsenal were a team of good to very good players, RM were a bunch of very good players.
 
These days, just about everybody is so overly obsessed with statistics and modern gimmick terms such as half spaces and double pivots. F*cking nonsense. The object of the game has not and never will change. You need QUALITY players, able to prevent the other team from scoring and provide and finish chances your own team creates.

It's that simple isn't it?

If you have better players, or X factor players, you win 90% of the time. There are going to be freak moments of course. I remember a certain Celtic win over Barcelona where they had 1 shot and 1 goal, while Barcelona couldn't score with 30+ shots. And we've seen that happen to us plenty as well.
There is the argument that SAF made average players look good, but he ALWAYS had a bunch of world class players in the team no matter what. Cleverley and Young are going to perform their best when surrounded by Rooney, RVP, Evra, Rio, Vidic, Giggs.
Mourinho's "anti football" always relied on having world class goalscorer aswell.

People on redcafe try to rewrite the history of football, but there is one simple truth. You don't win anything without a great goalscorer. Yes, sometimes defenders and midfielders provide clutch moments. But the majority of football games are won by the striker/goalkeeper.

Now we have to pray for some Bruno moments in the remaining Europa games.
 
Clearly they were using a small sample size. Apply the same logic to the rest of the season.

It’s really not difficult. We have possibly the worst striker in the league and are massively lacking goals so it’s nonsense to say that any other striker wouldn’t make a difference. A better striker would finish a lot of the chances he’s fecked up and would create more chances than he has both for himself and others.

That isn’t where the influence ends though, a better striker leads teams to act differently, it creates space for others, it means teams aren’t so confident to push players forward. You then have the less tangible aspects on top of that - fear factor, momentum, team confidence cannot be underestimated.


You compare this current attack to the ones in recent past.

Martial, Rashford, Zlatan, Greenwood, Ibra, Cavani, Lukaku etc


The difference is so stark. I can’t stress enough that it’s not just the goals a good attack brings that are so important, it’s how that threat changes the way the opposition plays. Currently teams have no fear in throwing players forward again and again. That’s never used to be the case even post Ferguson and it’s not something Amorim can do anything about until he has the players to put on the pitch.

He could try a system not so reliant on a top class striker when he doesn't have one. People talk as if the decisions he's made have all been forced on him.

Teams have no fear throwing players forward when you have less attackers on the field too.

I find the argument that Amorim can't do anything about it deeply flawed.
 
He could try a system not so reliant on a top class striker when he doesn't have one. People talk as if the decisions he's made have all been forced on him.

Teams have no fear throwing players forward when you have less attackers on the field too.

I find the argument that Amorim can't do anything about it deeply flawed.
I’d love to see this system that isn’t so reliant on a player that can score goals?

Who do you think outside of Højlund is going to score goals? Garnacho is far from the finished article, has been given every chance and still isn’t delivering. His decision making and execution has been terrible and you can’t blame that on the system.

Amad is injured.

Rashford, Sancho and Antony are not at the club.

Bruno has been fantastic.

Zirkzee is not a goal scorer and is now injured.


So what’s this fabled system that gets blood out of a stone?
 
You build a squad based on attributes that are not tied to a particular manager. You have a long term view. You don't panic buy. You don't overpay. You do what every successful team has done for years. You buy good players and you move players on if they don't work out for whatever reason that is. We don't need 11 new players. We need 3-4 this summer and then you do the same the next summer.

You build on a good foundation.

You do the complete opposite of what United have done for the past 15 years:
- Overpaying for players
- Overpaying salaries
- Giving any young player who shows promise a silly contract
- Allowing players to behave badly with no consequences
- Keeping injury prone players for years and years because they are good when they are fit
- Not planning in advance for your transfer business o you panic buy
- Buying players with known attitude issues
- Buying players for big money that are on the wane
- Buying players that don't fit the sort of football you want to play or that the squad is built around.



Yep. The manager can inform the people above him what he thinks the team needs but the recruitment should be entirely above their heads. You can't buy players the manager doesn't want to play but you shouldn't be lead by the manager at all.
Spot on
 
Especially not when Arsenal can make a DM and effective forward but don't say that loudly

Who Rice?

He's got 7 goals. He was getting 5 for West Ham. Arsenal haven't made him an effective forward.

At least two of them were free kicks. Should Amorim be able to make players better at scoring freekicks now?
 
I’d love to see this system that isn’t so reliant on a player that can score goals?

Who do you think outside of Højlund is going to score goals? Garnacho is far from the finished article, has been given every chance and still isn’t delivering. His decision making and execution has been terrible and you can’t blame that on the system.

Amad is injured.

Rashford, Sancho and Antony are not at the club.

Bruno has been fantastic.

Zirkzee is not a goal scorer and is now injured.


So what’s this fabled system that gets blood out of a stone?

It sure as hell isn't the one he's dedicated our entire season to. Perhaps a system that doesn't have 5 defenders would allow for another attacker to help out. I suppose having more attackers wouldn't help right? Not every system requires a top class striker to work, this one is set up to fail without one. He's also put attacking players in unfamiliar positions that haven't been getting the best out of them.

He got rid of Rashford and Anthony...his decision. Whether that was a good idea or not it can't be used as something that went against him. He made the decisions he lives by them.

What happens if he gets Gyökeres and he gets injured after two games? We just throw away another season because the manager is unwilling or incapable of adjusting to the circumstances he's got and finding solutions? I don't want so see him sacked, but some of the excuses are frankly ridiculously. At least he himself admits he's made a lot of mistake.
 
Who Rice?

He's got 7 goals. He was getting 5 for West Ham. Arsenal haven't made him an effective forward.

At least two of them were free kicks. Should Amorim be able to make players better at scoring freekicks now?
Nope, Mikel Merino. And he’s got 9 G/A in 10 games as CF.
 
It sure as hell isn't the one he's dedicated our entire season to. Perhaps a system that doesn't have 5 defenders would allow for another attacker to help out. I suppose having more attackers wouldn't help right? Not every system requires a top class striker to work, this one is set up to fail without one. He's also put attacking players in unfamiliar positions that haven't been getting the best out of them.

He got rid of Rashford and Anthony...his decision. Whether that was a good idea or not it can't be used as something that went against him. He made the decisions he lives by them.

What happens if he gets Gyökeres and he gets injured after two games? We just throw away another season because the manager is unwilling or incapable of adjusting to the circumstances he's got and finding solutions? I don't want so see him sacked, but some of the excuses are frankly ridiculously. At least he himself admits he's made a lot of mistake.

Rashford and Antony were absolute toilet for us. Not his decision to have them but a huge move in the right direction beginning the process of moving them on. That decision is bigger than this season.

Our strength is in defense right now so he’s introducing that and making us far more solid than we were under ETH. The results will come but at least we’re not getting trashed by 3 or 4 goals week in week out now.


The point is that we don’t have the quality in attack or midfield to win games with attacking football so he’s had to adapt. This is his formation we are seeing but it’s not his system yet, he’s had to be flexible and put emphasis on defending and hoping to sneak results rather than be naive and try to attack and score 1 or 2 every week while our opponent walk through us and score 3 or 4.