Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches

[stevoc]

Followed Ajax much?

Considering none of the managers before or after him got Ajax playing in such a style.

Closest was Peter Bosz who uses a kamikaze attacking style of play which is very attractive but doesn't really last for a longer period of time.

I think Erik ten Hag was a bit lucky that he had wonderful footballers in that first team with Frenkie, de Ligt, Tadic, Ziyech, Blind, Mazraoui and Tagliafico, Onana. What was even maybe more impressive was how quickly he and Overmars built a second team that was still quite a force in Europe.

Amorim called it the best team outside of the top 5 leagues. It was the team with Timber, Martinez, Gravenberch, Alvarez, Haller, Antony, Berghuis, Tadic etc.

Ajax has a stereotype of the type of football they should play. The joke is, that in the last 20 years, very few managers have gotten them to play that type of football and win. Erik ten Hag was one of the few.

I did watch Ajax under Ten Hag a bit though not extensively. The bolded is what is what I'm sort of getting at. I'm not saying he had nothing to do with the way they played. I'm dubious as to how much of it was down to his vision/coaching alone and how much was down to having so many talented players come through the Ajax academy at the same time who were brought up playing a similar style.

People keep talking about that Ajax style like Ten Hag abandoned it at United. But we little evidence to suggest he ever planned on trying to implement it here. On the other hand we have ample evidence to suggest how we played between July 2023 and October 2024 is exactly how Ten Hag envisaged his team playing at United with the squad he largely built.

 

[MF1138]

Rashford and Antony were absolute toilet for us. Not his decision to have them but a huge move in the right direction beginning the process of moving them on. That decision is bigger than this season.

Our strength is in defense right now so he’s introducing that and making us far more solid than we were under ETH. The results will come but at least we’re not getting trashed by 3 or 4 goals week in week out now.


The point is that we don’t have the quality in attack or midfield to win games with attacking football so he’s had to adapt. This is his formation we are seeing but it’s not his system yet, he’s had to be flexible and put emphasis on defending and hoping to sneak results rather than be naive and try to attack and score 1 or 2 every week while our opponent walk through us and score 3 or 4.

Adapt how? We're losing more games than we ever have. It ain't working and there's no proof that it will.

 

[stevoc]

I think a lot of folk are putting too much hope in the idea that a different striker will drastically change our fortunes. Who could we realistically get who's going to bang in 20-25 league goals when we're skint and might not have CL football to offer?

Hojlund clearly isn't as bad as he's looked this season, granted he's not a great striker. But we managed to finish 8th last season with him leading the line and scoring 10 in 30 despite having most of the defence injured and playing without a functioning midfield.

 

[Ronaldo's Love Child]

I‘m not seeing this at all. The squad struggled to play the previous 4-1-4-1/4-2-3-1 as well. Playing out the back has been inconsistent; teams are pressing us high. Our attack was and is ineffective.

It‘s not the formation & strategy that is the issue. Getting the players to perform is.

You're right in that we were playing bad under ETH's different formations but the question should be "are we playing worse under Amorim"? So far, I'd say yes

 

[Frank White]

Rashford and Antony were absolute toilet for us. Not his decision to have them but a huge move in the right direction beginning the process of moving them on. That decision is bigger than this season.

Our strength is in defense right now so he’s introducing that and making us far more solid than we were under ETH. The results will come but at least we’re not getting trashed by 3 or 4 goals week in week out now.


The point is that we don’t have the quality in attack or midfield to win games with attacking football so he’s had to adapt. This is his formation we are seeing but it’s not his system yet, he’s had to be flexible and put emphasis on defending and hoping to sneak results rather than be naive and try to attack and score 1 or 2 every week while our opponent walk through us and score 3 or 4.

Is it? Amorim's United (well this iteration of United, hardly his team) have been the leakiest of all managers post Fergie. We're conceding 1.55 goals a game apparently.

 

[AjaxCunian]

I did watch Ajax under Ten Hag a bit though not extensively. The bolded is what is what I'm sort of getting at. I'm not saying he had nothing to do with the way they played. I'm dubious as to how much of it was down to his vision/coaching alone and how much was down to having so many talented players come through the Ajax academy at the same time who were brought up playing a similar style.

People keep talking about that Ajax style like Ten Hag abandoned it at United. But we little evidence to suggest he ever planned on trying to implement it here. On the other hand we have ample evidence to suggest how we played between July 2023 and October 2024 is exactly how Ten Hag envisaged his team playing at United with the squad he largely built.

Well you can have quality players, but that style of play was even there when he rebuilt that initial Ajax team as well. It remained very constant. His work at Bayern reserves, Go Ahead Eagles and Utrecht were also more proof.

At United I think he was more pragmatic and playing to the strength of the players he had. Even before he signed, it was evident that Bruno and Rashford don't fit that Ajax way of playing at all. They were far more direct, good from the counter and that is exactly what he tried to do at United. Becoming a transition based team, which wasn't what he had done before at Ajax or other clubs at all.

His plan failed, and injuries didn't help him at all. Maybe if we got Frenkie or a similar type of player, he'd be willing to build the team from a control type of play, but with Casemiro (still a good signing imo) he went for a whole different type of play.

He deserved to be sacked, but I can also remember how he played without a left back for such a long time with Shaw and Malacia out. Also we looked miles better in buildup whenever Martinez was fit. That 2nd season was terribly injury-riddled, to a degree I have never seen and don't think I will see again. He was constantly in survival mode that 2nd season, just getting the players and set-up to grind out results. Poor tactics, but also poor signings and injuries cost him.

 

[JPRouve]

I think a lot of folk are putting too much hope in the idea that a different striker will drastically change our fortunes. Who could we realistically get who's going to bang in 20-25 league goals when we're skint and might not have CL football to offer?

Hojlund clearly isn't as bad as he's looked this season, granted he's not a great striker. But we managed to finish 8th last season with him leading the line and scoring 10 in 30 despite having most of the defence injured and playing without a functioning midfield.

And statistically the difference between our actual goals and our expected goals is "only" 7 goals. While there is no denying that a better striker would see us marginally better, the actual issue for this team is our chronic inability to create and prevent good goalscoring opportunities.

 

[Pexbo]

Adapt how? We're losing more games than we ever have. It ain't working and there's no proof that it will.

He’s doing what he’s been assigned to do. We could have brought in an interim manager that had the sole job of getting results for the rest of the season but we didn’t. He wanted us to, he didn’t want to take over mid season and we told him we wanted him to start now or never because it’s essential the new manager comes in and starts building for the future.

He could have tried a bunch of things out to get short term results. But what’s the point? He was hired because in his previous roles he had implemented his system and after a tough initial period he’s been hugely successful.

If he diverged from that, tried other systems and focused on nothing but results one game at a time, we would never know which players are worth keeping and investing in under him, who will never adapt, we’d have lost 6 months of adapting to his system.

Despite what the results might suggest, I think it’s obvious that our players have adapted to his formation. At the beginning commentators and pundits were pointing out how players had no idea where to be or what to do. We are long past that, we’ve outplayed City and won, unlucky not to win twice, beat Arsenal with 10 men, outplayed Liverpool and unlucky not to win and there has been lots of matches in between where we have performed well but ultimately not been able to capitalise on it and ended up drawing or losing.

That is something that can be fixed with better players.

 

[Smores]

And statistically the difference between our actual goals and our expected goals is "only" 7 goals. While there is no denying that a better striker would see us marginally better, the actual issue for this team is our chronic inability to create and prevent good goalscoring opportunities.

You have to have someone in a goal scoring position to make an actual attempt before anything gets recorded to xG. Our last game alone should be evidence enough of that.

 

[JPRouve]

You have to have someone in a goal scoring position to make an actual attempt before anything gets recorded to xG. Our last game alone should be evidence enough of that.

Sure but it's still not our main issue. The main issue is the poor quality of game in the final thirds. Our overall game needs to improve and no one signing is going to fix everything magically, a top striker would put us where we were last season and unless I'm mistaken it wasn't good enough.

 

[Pexbo]

And statistically the difference between our actual goals and our expected goals is "only" 7 goals. While there is no denying that a better striker would see us marginally better, the actual issue for this team is our chronic inability to create and prevent good goalscoring opportunities.

I’d argue this arguments flawed. A better striker doesn’t just slot into a team and work with whatever xG the last striker had, they do a lot more than that:

1. They outperform xG if clinical.
2. Their movement means more opportunities and higher xG for themselves.
3. They contribute to our attacking play and increase the xG of others.


You then have the butterfly effect - they score, we put games to bed, teams have to push up and attack us and in turn we get to counter attack and generate yet more xG.


It really isn’t as simple as “Another striker would struggle with Hojlund’s xG”

 

[Bojan11]

He’s doing what he’s been assigned to do. We could have brought in an interim manager that had the sole job of getting results for the rest of the season but we didn’t. He wanted us to, he didn’t want to take over mid season and we told him we wanted him to start now or never because it’s essential the new manager comes in and starts building for the future.

He could have tried a bunch of things out to get short term results. But what’s the point? He was hired because in his previous roles he had implemented his system and after a tough initial period he’s been hugely successful.

If he diverged from that, tried other systems and focused on nothing but results one game at a time, we would never know which players are worth keeping and investing in under him, who will never adapt, we’d have lost 6 months of adapting to his system.

Despite what the results might suggest, I think it’s obvious that our players have adapted to his formation. At the beginning commentators and pundits were pointing out how players had no idea where to be or what to do. We are long past that, we’ve outplayed City and won, unlucky not to win twice, beat Arsenal with 10 men, outplayed Liverpool and unlucky not to win and there has been lots of matches in between where we have performed well but ultimately not been able to capitalise on it and ended up drawing or losing.

That is something that can be fixed with better players.

Outplayed is stretching it.

The away game vs City was a nothing game until Amad stepped up from a long ball. Outplayed would be suggesting we were creating chance after chance. They were on a terrible run at that time too. We had a better performance in the cup final against City last year.

We have under Amorim lost to Spurs twice, Bournemouth, Forest, Wolves, Brighton, Newcastle and Palace at home. We failed to score in 6 of them, so I can’t understand how you can say the system is working because we should not be that awful, that we can’t score at home against half the league. So why can he play well at Anfield but not against all these teams with the same players? We were outplayed for 80 minutes against Southampton at home, who will go down as one of the worst teams to ever have played in the league.

 

[Marwood]

Nope, Mikel Merino. And he’s got 9 G/A in 10 games as CF.

He's got 8 goals. Same as he got last season for Sociedad.

He's done well as a makeshift forward but is this the bar now? A manager at another club, a much better team, gets 8 goals from a midfielder and that somehow means Amorim isn't doing his job well?

 

[Gavinb33]

Who Rice?

He's got 7 goals. He was getting 5 for West Ham. Arsenal haven't made him an effective forward.

At least two of them were free kicks. Should Amorim be able to make players better at scoring freekicks now?

Merino has been playing up front for them for a while scored a few and got a few assists, you can have a functional forward line without a top class striker if the team behind them can play, simple facts is we suck at everything there is nothing he has done that has actually improved anything save for letting in 20+ chances a game but then the opponents score more with less shots than under Ten Hag so does that really count for anything.

And before anyone chimes in with mistakes Onana was Onana for Ten Hag and we conceded plenty of rubbish goals from mistakes under him as well and he still got sacked.

 

[Smores]

Sure but it's still not our main issue. The main issue is the poor quality of game in the final thirds. Our overall game needs to improve and no one signing is going to fix everything magically, a top striker would put us where we were last season and unless I'm mistaken it wasn't good enough.

Yeah I was making this point to a friend the other day, I think a striker alone gets us around 6th We'd still need another couple of players to challenge top 4.

I don't think it can be overestimated how much no striker option is holding us back though. A striker as a threat creates options for others, the likes of Garnacho would also add to their tallies.

As a wing back team not having an aerial threat or someone who is always in the right place for a cutback is a killer blow.

 

[JPRouve]

I’d argue this arguments flawed. A better striker doesn’t just slot into a team and work with whatever xG the last striker had, they do a lot more than that:

1. They outperform xG if clinical.
2. Their movement means more opportunities and higher xG for themselves.
3. They contribute to our attacking play and increase the xG of others.


You then have the butterfly effect - they score, we put games to bed, teams have to push up and attack us and in turn we get to counter attack and generate yet more xG.


It really isn’t as simple as “Another striker would struggle with Hojlund’s xG”

Fortunately it's not what I said.

 

[Marwood]

Merino has been playing up front for them for a while scored a few and got a few assists, you can have a functional forward line without a top class striker if the team behind them can play, simple facts is we suck at everything there is nothing he has done that has actually improved anything save for letting in 20+ chances a game but then the opponents score more with less shots than under Ten Hag so does that really count for anything.

And before anyone chimes in with mistakes Onana was Onana for Ten Hag and we conceded plenty of rubbish goals from mistakes under him as well and he still got sacked.

But nobody is saying a top class striker is all this team needs. Nor I think is anyone 100% expecting a top class striker to come in.

Pretty much everyone agrees the whole forward line needs looking at.

 

[soapythecat]

These days, just about everybody is so overly obsessed with statistics and modern gimmick terms such as half spaces and double pivots. F*cking nonsense. The object of the game has not and never will change. You need QUALITY players, able to prevent the other team from scoring and provide and finish chances your own team creates.

Half of this squad has won trophies, finished in the top 6 of the PL regularly. They didn’t start being so bad they are losing half their games and forgotten what end of the pitch the opposition goal is.
Blame the players all you want, but they have all gone sideways but mostly backwards playing in a system that is so inflexible. Maybe it’s the coaching and not the formation but either way it’s been a disaster and looks awful.

 

[Pexbo]

Fortunately it's not what I said.

I think it’s a fair reply to this point:

While there is no denying that a better striker would see us marginally better, the actual issue for this team is our chronic inability to create and prevent good goalscoring opportunities.

My point was that a better striker won’t just marginally improve us, they will also address the “create opportunities” issue. Hojlund’s positioning and movement is criminal, as is his link up play. A top quality striker carves out opportunities for themselves and others.

 

[JPRouve]

I think it’s a fair reply to this point:


My point was that a better striker won’t just marginally improve us, they will also address the “create opportunities” issue. Hojlund’s positioning and movement is criminal, as is his link up play. A top quality striker carves out opportunities for themselves and others.

So we don't have a chronic inability to create and prevent goalscoring opportunities? In that case fair enough, I'm wrong.

 

[Daydreamer]

He's got 8 goals. Same as he got last season for Sociedad.

He's done well as a makeshift forward but is this the bar now? A manager at another club, a much better team, gets 8 goals from a midfielder and that somehow means Amorim isn't doing his job well?

He’s got 6 goals and 3 assists from his 10 games as a CF.

Of course the bar is going to be from another Manager from another team, Amorim is literally competing in the same league as him.

And the point being made is that Hojland being poor is not sole reason United are hovering just above the relegation spots. It’s not even the main reason.

And even if it was, what if in the summer you buy a good striker, or even two of them, and then - like Arsenal - they both get long-term injuries. Do you then write that season off as well?

 

[Pexbo]

So we don't have a chronic inability to create and prevent goalscoring opportunities? In that case fair enough, I'm wrong.

We absolutely do. I haven’t said we don’t?

It’s not just about the midfield or wingers creating those chances though if that’s what you’re inferring and that’s the point I am making. We’ve got Bruno, one of the most prolific chance creators in the game today and yet our strikers are not giving him options. If you put a top class striker in, I guarantee you that our chance creation would miraculously improve.

 

[Raoul]

So we don't have a chronic inability to create and prevent goalscoring opportunities? In that case fair enough, I'm wrong.

Creating goals among the attackers and midfielders is symbiotic and self-reinforcing. If the most important player in that process is ineffective, buildups often go nowhere and all the other attackers suddenly seem less effective as well. This is why we need a world class striker - not just to score goals and win games, but also to facilitate a more harmonious attack that results in more goals from other attackers as well.

 

[JPRouve]

We absolutely do. I haven’t said we don’t?

It’s not just about the midfield or wingers creating those chances though if that’s what you’re inferring and that’s the point I am making. We’ve got Bruno, one of the most prolific chance creators in the game today and yet our strikers are not giving him options. If you put a top class striker in, I guarantee you that our chance creation would miraculously improve.

Fair enough.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Our strength is in defense right now so he’s introducing that and making us far more solid than we were under ETH. The results will come but at least we’re not getting trashed by 3 or 4 goals week in week out now.

We concede 1.54 gpg in the PL under Amorim, that’s a fair bit more than RvN and ETH this season(1.09), and last season we conceded 1.52 gpg.
So how the funk has he made us ”far more solid” man?
He’s got much better defensive options than last season in De Ligt, Yoro, Maz (and now Dorgu) and it made an improvement for Ruud and Ten Hag, so why is Amorim shitter than them this season and equal to the shit show from last year?
(Hint: it’s his fecking formation)

Is there a single thing he’s actually improved? Aside from being better in the big games at the expense of being shitter in the smaller ones?

 

[Raoul]

We concede 1.5 gpg in the PL under Amorim, that’s a fair bit more than RvN and ETH this season, and last season we also conceded 1.5 gpg.
So how the funk has he made us ”far more solid” man?
He’s got much better defensive options than last season in De Ligt, Yoro, Maz (and now Dorgu) and it made an improvement for Ruud and Ten Hag, so why is Amorim shitter than them this season and equal to the shit show from last year?

Is there a single thing he’s actually improved? Aside from being better in the big games at the expense of being shitter in the smaller ones?

We've conceded 46 this year under mostly Amorim. We conceded 58 under Ten Hag last year. The difference in results is directly attributable to lack of goals this year. We had 57 last year when Hojlund was vaguely useful and have 38 this year. The lack of goals creates the perceptual illusion that we are not defending as well as last year, when the reality is we are not scoring, and therefore not winning, which is the vast majority of our frustration. Add a proper goal scorer(s) to take us from 38 to 70+ goals next year and a whole new world of possibilities will open up.

 

[Toshey]

Creating goals among the attackers and midfielders is symbiotic and self-reinforcing. If the most important player in that process is ineffective, buildups often go nowhere and all the other attackers suddenly seem less effective as well. This is why we need a world class striker - not just to score goals and win games, but also to facilitate a more harmonious attack that results in more goals from other attackers as well.

Also, a good and scoring striker makes defenders nervous. Nobody is nervous when they're against Hojlund. Actually most defenders toy with him, playing with a smile on their faces.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

We've conceded 46 this year under mostly Amorim. We conceded 58 under Ten Hag last year. The difference in results is directly attributable to lack of goals this year. We had 57 last year when Hojlund was vaguely useful and have 38 this year. The lack of goals creates the perceptual illusion that we are not defending as well as last year, when the reality is we are not scoring, and therefore not winning, which is the vast majority of our frustration. Add a proper goal scorer(s) to take us from 38 to 70+ goals next year and a whole new world of possibilities will open up.

Yeah, you’re blaming Höjlund soley, I’m blaming the system.

Not sure why you’re reposting the stats I posted, as they were clear proof Amorim hasn’t ”made us far more solid”.
We concede as many under him as ETH team last season that didn’t have Yoro, De Ligt & Maz (nor Dorgu) in it.

My post was clearly to disprove we are ”far more solid”, nothing about the results, and we absolutely aren’t! We concede as many as last year (slightly more, despite having better players). The better player helped ETH and Ruud have a much more solid goal conceded per game stat.

 

[Marwood]

He’s got 6 goals and 3 assists from his 10 games as a CF.

Of course the bar is going to be from another Manager from another team, Amorim is literally competing in the same league as him.

And the point being made is that Hojland being poor is not sole reason United are hovering just above the relegation spots. It’s not even the main reason.

And even if it was, what if in the summer you buy a good striker, or even two of them, and then - like Arsenal - they both get long-term injuries. Do you then write that season off as well?

You should have sacked Arteta then right after the first year or two?

Because compared to other managers at the time who'd has less time with their teams and spent less, he wasn't doing anywhere near as well.

Absolutely nobody is saying Hojlund is the sole reason. That's a fictional argument. Nobody is saying let's just sign a striker next season and leave it at that.

 

[Raoul]

Yeah, you’re blaming Höjlund soley, I’m blaming the system.

Not sure why you’re reposting the stats I posted, as they were clear proof Amorim hasn’t ”made us far more solid”.
We concede as many under him as ETH team last season that didn’t have Yoro, De Ligt & Maz (nor Dorgu) in it.

My post was clearly to disprove we are ”far more solid”, nothing about the results, and we absolutely aren’t!

Sporting scored 96 goals last year, so its clearly not the system. Amorim just doesn't have the players he needs yet because he hasn't yet had a summer window to buy them. That's the problem with hiring a manager mid season.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Sporting scored 96 goals last year, so its clearly not the system.

In fuxking Portugal mate.

This system for these players (as possibly this league, we’ll have to see there), has been worse in every metric.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

What's the point in playing 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 with bad players just for the sake of finishing higher in the table when PL season is long over for us?
And how do you know in different formation our attackers will suddenly start scoring?

433 442, 343 doesn't matter.

We need results and good performances. We just need results

 

[Licha-Vidic]

Sporting scored 96 goals last year, so its clearly not the system. Amorim just doesn't have the players he needs yet because he hasn't yet had a summer window to buy them. That's the problem with hiring a manager mid season.

Bebe scored 100 goals in 'Uganda Premier League' so it's clearly not a talent issue.

 

[Raoul]

In fuxking Portugal mate.

This system for these players (as possibly this league, we’ll have to see there), has been worse in every metric.

It wouldn't matter where it was, the point is Amorim has demonstrated with devastating effectiveness that his system scores a hell of a lot of goals. So the problem clearly isn't Amorim, but the Ten Hag era players, many of whom don't have the appropriate profiles to play in this system. Add and subtract as necessary this summer and suddenly we're looking at a completely different set of results.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Bebe scored 100 goals in 'Uganda Premier League' so it's clearly not a talent issue.

Nunez scored 32 in 57 over there.

In the Prem, he’s on 25 in 90.

 

[Raoul]

Bebe scored 100 goals in 'Uganda Premier League' so it's clearly not a talent issue.

Would be impressive if it happened.

 

[Bojan11]

Sporting scored 96 goals last year, so it’s clearly not the system. Amorim just doesn't have the players he needs yet because he hasn't yet had a summer window to buy them. That's the problem with hiring a manager mid season.

Come on dude. It’s the Portuguese league and he’s coaching one of the big three. Mourinho seems like the odd one out from there that has been successful. Nuno is doing well at Forest, but I wouldn’t want him here.

Ajax under ETH scored 98 and 88 goals in his last two seasons. It didn’t work here.

 

[Raoul]

Nunez scored 32 in 57 over there.

In the Prem, he’s on 25 in 90.

Mo Salah scored 19 at Roma and 44 the next season at Liverpool. None of this has anything to do with Amorim, his system, or the nuanced specifics surrounding him being dropped into this team mid season.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It wouldn't matter where it was, the point is Amorim has demonstrated with devastating effectiveness that his system scores a hell of a lot of goals. So the problem clearly isn't Amorim, but the Ten Hag era players, many of whom don't have the appropriate profiles to play in this system. Add and subtract as necessary this summer and suddenly we're looking at a completely different set of results.

Honestly mate, I think you’re into some serious wishful thinking here.

Amorim has proven one thing, that his system IN LIGA PORTUGAL with the best side in the league, can score a hell of a lot of goals.
Stop pretending we don’t have examples like Villas Boas mate, and that everything is simply ”transferable”.

Didn’t ETH’s Ajax score a feck tonne and were pretty fecking ace in the CL too? Even after he had to rebuild them after the first exodus?

 

[Marwood]

In fuxking Portugal mate.

This system for these players (as possibly this league, we’ll have to see there), has been worse in every metric.

But you've watched us play other systems and struggle to score goals.

We've been rubbish at creating and scoring for years now playing 4231 or 433.

The only difference really has been that mad 10 week spell from Rashford after the world cup and Hojlunds mini run last season.

Outside of that it's been pretty much the same whilst playing various systems.

So how are we still blaming systems.