Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches

I would be warmer to him if he had some tactical flexibility/adaptability. Playing your system and only your system is well and good if you’re the best team in the league and bossing everyone around. But when you’re in a relegation scrap, you need to play to your strengths and come up with a game plan around your opposition.

It hasn’t just been bad, it’s been embarrassingly bad. Next week is May and you have to go back to January for our last league win against a non-relegated team.
 
Dominos said:
Now I know we can say "ETH was highly rated before us" too - but the point is Ten Hag demonstrated over 2 years and hundreds of millions of pounds that he didn't understand the importance of physicality in the league, and what qualities the team needed to improve. In summer 2024 we knew we could discard what ETH had done at Ajax because he'd been given a fair crack to try improve United and failed.
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There was a fair amount of support for ETH here even last summer, though. Many people were arguing that Ten Hag hadn't been given a fair crack, because of factors like the calamitous injury situation last season, Greenwood drama, and so forth. Those were sound and reasonable arguments... but they turned out to be wrong.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
There was a fair amount of support for ETH here even last summer, though. Many people were arguing that Ten Hag hadn't been given a fair crack, because of factors like the calamitous injury situation last season, Greenwood drama, and so forth. Those were sound and reasonable arguments... but they turned out to be wrong.
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Which was plain to see if one wanted to judge it by the merits rather than trying to find excuses. I was calling for him to be sacked much earlier and I'm usually pro-giving managers time.

But if it walks and talks like a duck...
 
Dominos said:
That's a pretty compelling argument to be fair, and gives me a bit of hope for next season if we did sign a competent striker.

However what I would say - let's say we had a striker that is worth an extra 10 points alone for us this season, that would still only put us 9th-11th in the league which is still dismal. Could a striker be worth 20 points alone? Hard to imagine.

Point being we need a lot more goals and assists from our two 10s and wing backs.

Might be unpopular but if it's at all possible I'd sell Zirkzee, loan Hojlund (since no one would be dumb enough to pay an acceptable fee) and bring in 2 strikers. Neither Zirkzee or Hojlund are good enough to be back up strikers.
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An approx 20 point increase via one player does sound out there on the face of it.

If Arsenal were asking Sakah to do that in addition to what he's already doing it's not happening.

But when your starting striker has only scored in 3 games all season, it's not really that crazy anymore.

When Hojlund scores we tend to win. So those points quickly add up....if he was scoring.

But ultimately agree, a striker isn't enough.

My hope is that for all the talk of system causing problems, the two quality attacking players we have in Bruno and Amad, they've been productive. A system hasn't stopped them from stepping up.
 
Ace said:
I would be warmer to him if he had some tactical flexibility/adaptability. Playing your system and only your system is well and good if you’re the best team in the league and bossing everyone around. But when you’re in a relegation scrap, you need to play to your strengths and come up with a game plan around your opposition.

It hasn’t just been bad, it’s been embarrassingly bad. Next week is May and you have to go back to January for our last league win against a non-relegated team.
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All fair points but I think he is adapting to a degree already. Heck we played well enough against Wolves who decided the game with a brilliant single action. During 1st half we had them completely under control and while the chances weren't staggering, we generated some of them. 2nd half was a little more open and and we created more without the opponent being able to exploit us. I am not saying that this is good enough or anything at all, but I think it has to be noticed, that the manager made can't be faulted for a result, when it comes this way. The results have been pretty bad, I am a bit puzzled though, that folks appear to be struck by it. The underlying numbers aren't good for quite some time, we haven't been a functional team for a while, but somehow managed to keep the results stable. This season, the wheels came off.
Iker Quesadillas said:
There was a fair amount of support for ETH here even last summer, though. Many people were arguing that Ten Hag hadn't been given a fair crack, because of factors like the calamitous injury situation last season, Greenwood drama, and so forth. Those were sound and reasonable arguments... but they turned out to be wrong.
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I think, this doesn't take into a account one aspect - some of what is called support now for Amorim or support for ETH last summer wasn't actually support for those guys but unwillingness to reshuffle just for the sake of it. We know we are light in terms of resources yet we splash it around to buy managers out of their contract or pay them off after getting rid of them. I think the absolute majority on here will agree that these days results aren't good enough but we can't expect to short cut our way out of it. It is absolutely fine to not be satisfied with what Amorim is serving but some of the notions in here sound a whole lot like actionism and impulsiveness. We are seeing what 10 years of bad recruitment and not having a plan will lead to, the day was always going to come and United doesn't have some sort of divine right to be successfull despite making bad decisions for such a long time.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
So manager gets less out of player… blame erm, player.

No wonder you won’t even criticise him the slightest, you’ve admitted we bought better defenders but yet we concede as many, and we replaced McTom’s goals with Amad and added Zirkzee but still can’t match last seasons 8th place, in fact, we’re much worse.

At what point do we suggest the manager isn’t getting enough out of his squad/players?

I mean even this season, pre Amorim Højlund had 7 games, 1 goal, 1 assist.
Post it’s 20 games, 2 goals, 0 assists.

So both Garna and Højlund got worse from November, but it’s all their fault right?
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Hojlund didn't score in his first 14 league games last season. Not a single assist in those 14 games either. His drought this season hasn't just come out of the blue. This season is very similar to last for him.

Who are you blaming for that 0 goals and 0 assists in the opening 14 games last season?
 
foolsgold said:
It's increasingly hard to make a case in his defence. Sure he's been dealt a difficult hand with injuries, but he's played it poorly, 6 months in I can't point to a single player and say he's meaningfully improved under Amorim. Nice to see some of the youth get a chance, but I it was forced on him, he didn't drop underperforming first team players for them.

The only thing that will keep him in a job is the extreme reluctance to make another change.
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Yoro, he eased him in well? Amad to an extent?
 
Marwood said:
Who are you blaming for that 0 goals and 0 assists in the opening 14 games last season?
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New player, very young one at that, in a new league, coming back from injury, and obviously us not creating enough for him.
That’s what I put it down to at the time anyhow, and I thought he was actually playing rather well.

Here’s you agreeing during that run @Marwood.

Yeah really good again. Got everything needed I think
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And again

Amazing the difference by somebody just doing just he basics of the No.9 position.
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And again

Until we start keeping the ball higher up the pitch(i.e. opposite of today) any striker will struggle.

He's doing what he can given the circumstances.
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Now don’t feel bad for this small hypocrisy, the majority of our fans were loving him during that spell: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/rasmus-højlund-2023-24-performances.478474/page-68#post-31249959

No question he and Garnacho’s worst football has come since November.
 
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I'm looking at the sort of players we're linked with, physical, technically good, tenacious, and I think we're going to be a hell of a lot better next season if we can land a few of these players.

I'm not going to argue his defence anymore, I'm just going to wait for posters to end up with egg on their face, because I can see it coming.

If we're still shit next season then feel free to quote this.
 
pocco said:
I'm not going to argue his defence anymore, I'm just going to wait for posters to end up with egg on their face, because I can see it coming.
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Being great next year will be brilliant, but it won’t make posters have egg on their faces for calling out his horrendous start this season.
Every single United fan wants a strong Summer and to see a completely different side next year.
 
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Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Being great next year will be brilliant, but it won’t make posters wrong for calling out his horrendous start this season.
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It does demonstrate a severe lack of patience, though. Particularly when the majority of the posts have been whinging about the ‘system’ and a ‘lack of adaptability’ (the second one being the most confusing, given he regularly adapts his approach before and during games’).

If he succeeds in his own way, then these posts will look silly, poor start or not.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Being great next year will be brilliant, but it won’t make posters have egg on their faces for calling out his horrendous start this season.
Every single United fan wants a strong Summer and to see a completely different side next year.
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Depends what they said. If they said that a bad start was proof that he would be a failure, then it would indeed prove them wrong.
 
Dominos said:
That's a pretty compelling argument to be fair, and gives me a bit of hope for next season if we did sign a competent striker.

However what I would say - let's say we had a striker that is worth an extra 10 points alone for us this season, that would still only put us 9th-11th in the league which is still dismal. Could a striker be worth 20 points alone? Hard to imagine.

Point being we need a lot more goals and assists from our two 10s and wing backs.

Might be unpopular but if it's at all possible I'd sell Zirkzee, loan Hojlund (since no one would be dumb enough to pay an acceptable fee) and bring in 2 strikers. Neither Zirkzee or Hojlund are good enough to be back up strikers.
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Our defence and midfield (other than Bruno) don't chip in enough goals either.

In the league you'd expect the attacking wing backs to be getting 5 each a season, say 2 each for the centre backs, 5 each from defensive midfielders, and then 10+ from bruno, 10+ from each of the two 10's and 20+ from a competent striker.

That's 76 a season which is exactly double what we have this season in the league, and isn't overly optimistic if you have a competent team playing good football.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
New player, very young one at that, in a new league, coming back from injury, and obviously us not creating enough for him.
That’s what I put it down to at the time anyhow, and I thought he was actually playing rather well.

Here’s you agreeing during that run @Marwood.



And again



And again



Now don’t feel bad for this small hypocrisy, the majority of our fans were loving him during that spell: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/rasmus-højlund-2023-24-performances.478474/page-68#post-31249959

No question he and Garnacho’s worst football has come since November.
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So last seasons 14 game goal drought was down to everything but the manager in your opinion.

This seasons very similar goal drought definitely on Amorim. You're somehow sure of that. Along with Garnacho's poor finishing.

The mental gymnastics to blame Amorim are quite something.

Me liking Hojlund last season isn't hypocrisy. I still do like him. I've still got sympathy for him when he's got Garnacho as his main supplier. We still need to keep the ball in the final third more to help him as I said last season.
I still think he'll end up having a good career.

But blaming Amorim for his lack of goals when almost the exact same thing happened last season. Quite something. But then you did call the manager a coward a month after he'd taken the job. Says it all I'm afraid.
 
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Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Being great next year will be brilliant, but it won’t make posters have egg on their faces for calling out his horrendous start this season.
Every single United fan wants a strong Summer and to see a completely different side next year.
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Let's not play silly beggars. Most aren't just calling out a horrendous start, there are a lot who post every match day that he should be sacked etc. Some have been negative since day 1 because he plays a 3atb system.
 
Marwood said:
So last seasons 14 game goal drought was down to everything but the manager in your opinion.
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No, as I pointed out in my post, it was your fecking opinion man :lol:
You were delighted with him during that drought.

I mean, what’s is his G&A per PL game under ETH as opposed to Amorim?

Well I’ll tell.
41 games, 11 goals, 3 assists.

Compared to:
23 games, 2 goals, 0 assist.

But aye, the manager, the system, has nothing to do with that vast difference.
 
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Brand Nubian said:
Its been a very good read this thread. So informative, well thought off posts.

Now, or rather about 10 or so pages back, its become circular fecking arguing between two groups of posters barricaded in their trenches.
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Been reading through the last 10 pages in disbelief. Absolutely mind-boggling stuff.

Clearly people care about their team and want it to do well, and will naturally see things differently. But our problems are so complex and varied that it’s not surprising it generates such ‘warm’ discourse.

It is a shame though, that some seem so determined to ‘win’ an ‘argument’ with people (who are actually on their side) that they seem to spend a little time reading, or trying to comprehend, what others are saying.

The effect is just page after page of overwhelming noise and everyone completely talking past each other.

It’s getting that bad, I even found myself wishing for another international break to calm the mayhem!!!

Crazy times
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Not for me, we didn’t need to be this shit this year and risk his job, just to be good next season.
He absolutely could and at times should, have shown some more flexibility.
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Listen, if we hit the ground running next season with this system then I think we'll all agree it was a good decision. He came in to a dumpster fire of a season, lost critical players whilst trying to implement a new system...in hindisght this was likely to happen. But, he has rescued our disastrous EL campaign and we are now close to reaching the final. So not all is a disaster - I think some forget just how bad we were.

Somebody posted highlights of our game vs Wolves last season under ETH and I would challenge anybody to watch those highlights and say we haven't got better in areas. We clearly are better in areas, but 1) we are still prone to costly errors and 2) we continue to look toothless in attack, which is something that has been an issue for a while.
 
Herschel Krustofsky said:
Been reading through the last 10 pages in disbelief. Absolutely mind-boggling stuff.

Clearly people care about their team and wanted to do well, and also will naturally see things differently. Our problems are so complex and varied that it’s not surprising it generates such warm discourse.

It is a shame though, that some seem so determined to ‘win’ a perceived ‘argument’ with people who are actually on their side, that they seem to spend a little time reading, or trying to comprehend what others are saying.

The effect is just page after page of overwhelming noise and everyone completely talking past each other.

It’s getting that bad, I even found myself wishing for another international break to calm the mayhem!!!

Crazy times
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The problem is regardless of the argument if the team is failing both sets of fans are losing.

I have called out Amorim's faults tirelessly but he needs to succeed. Win the Europa league and the narrative of the season drastically changes competitively and all Ruben has to do is improve standings domestically in the league next season.
 
Posh Red said:
It does demonstrate a severe lack of patience, though. Particularly when the majority of the posts have been whinging about the ‘system’ and a ‘lack of adaptability’ (the second one being the most confusing, given he regularly adapts his approach before and during games’).

If he succeeds in his own way, then these posts will look silly, poor start or not.
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This post is equally silly. There is a basic question of how long a good manager needs to show some improvement. At the moment its the whole ETH argument, he needs his players, he needs a summer etc for his ideas to get embedded. Its been widely written how other teams such as Wolves have shown a real improvement in short periods of time. I really don't see much of this so called 'adaptability'. Its true towards the end vs Lyon we seemed to be clearly 4 at the back, but I don't see that sort of thing that much. And if he can do it in extreme occasions why cant he do that more often. It was interesting watching City last night how they have skillful CMs playing at full back/ wing back. In fact the team is full of skillful midfielders. I look at our recent signings like Dorgu and he is so lacking in the basic skill factor.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Not for me, we didn’t need to be this shit this year and risk his job, just to be good next season.
He absolutely could and at times should, have shown some more flexibility.
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That’s fine. To me, if he succeeds, then those posts I reference will look incredibly shortsighted, impatient, and illogical. To each, his own.
 
I watched the highlights of the Wolves game as I couldn't watch the full match, seemed like we would have easily won the game with forwards that actually score goals. It certainly didn't look like an awful attacking performance, they scored a cracker of a free kick, and are generally always a decent team against us, even ignoring their current run of good form.

It's glaringly obvious we need new forwards to progress as a team, I can at least see the manager having a positive impact on our overall attacking play.
 
pocco said:
Listen, if we hit the ground running next season with this system then I think we'll all agree it was a good decision.
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Absolutely, there’s this almost illogical idea that his system is harder to play for most players, and that by implementing it now he weeds out the likes of Højlund and Garnacho who don’t thrive in it.
Because of this he knows not to count on them next season.
Obviously this could be true, and in that sense, yeah it’d end up good, but only if we win the Europa League for me. Completely throwing away a season to a laughable degree just never seemed necessary.

There’s also the risk we feck off the likes of Garna for a manager who’ll turn out not good enough.
 
DSG said:
Fair enough mate. I guess what you see and what I see are different.

I’m not confident that we’ll get past Athletic for the final given they have more talent than we do. Regardless, let’s hope we can get lucky and progress.

From open play:
XG 2023-2024 44.06, scored 42 in 38 games
XG 2024-2025. 38.74, scored 25 in 33 games

https://understat.com/team/Manchester_United/2023

https://understat.com/team/Manchester_United/2024

We’ve severely underperformed our xG from open play. Too lazy to analyze the xGA, but we were super lucky last season under Ten Hag on goals conceded vs xGA.

I think we need to ding Amorim on the fact that our finishing has been even poorer vs the Ten Hag era. But also, our per game xG has gone up a tick. Maybe we can bring in Ole to coach the finishing because he seemed to generate better finishing haha

The stats are super noisy, so hard to draw conclusions. Eye test wise, I personally feel we are creating more chances under Amorim and giving up fewer, but time will tell.
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The improvement lies in becoming more set in a system. The fruits aren‘t enough, one hopes Amorim will see it through and the players start performing at a higher level within the structures and because of the structures.

The reality is that we haven‘t been able to take the last developmental steps since LvG, for various reasons.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Absolutely, there’s this almost illogical idea that his system is harder to play for most players, and that by implementing it now he weeds out the likes of Højlund and Garnacho who don’t thrive in it.
Because of this he knows not to count on them next season.
Obviously this could be true, and in that sense, yeah it’d end up good, but only if we win the Europa League for me. Completely throwing away a season to a laughable degree just never seemed necessary.

There’s also the risk we feck off the likes of Garna for a manager who’ll turn out not good enough.
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He could have gone back to the 4231 (more of the compact version that Ruud played) and ground out more points. Even under Ruud, though, the football wasn't anything to get overly excited about. But I think kicking the can down the road till next season, and prolonging our route back, might have been just as bad. If we had teething issues next season, then you would be criticising him for moving away from 4231 (or whatever). Plus he likely would have had to go through the whole process of evaluating every player in the 343 next season instead. So there are benefits to suffering now instead.

But there has to be some acceptance of the context of his time here too. Injuries to key players, he's allowed Rashford to leave who was a source of goals on his day etc. I do now honestly feel like we at least have a group of players all pulling in the same direction, it's just an issue with quality and suitability for the system. But Amorim was hired based on the football he had Sporting playing in this system, and I'm sure the higher ups had lengthy discussions about what the implementation of that would like like here, along with the ill-suited squad which they themselves were aware of prior to hiring him. None of this probably comes as a surprise to them, and I would hope is all part of a longer term plan to get things sorted. You wanted a quick fix, which is fair enough, but if their plan works then we'll all be happy.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
For me I’d always run a football club as such that I’d buy players for the club (not the manager) and I’d expect to see improvement from the coaching and in results before giving more time.
My gut feeling on this is that we’re likely to end up looking dumber than we did last Summer if Amorim doesn’t win the EL and we keep him.

Either way, if he starts next season anything like this, I’d have him gone before October.
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I think there needs to be an inbetween. A manager needs involvement, just not full say.
 
acnumber9 said:
I think there needs to be an inbetween. A manager needs involvement, just not full say.
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The club should be choosing both a manager and a group of players that suit each other. That way they all become more easily inter-changeable. The manager shouldn't need to ask for players to suit his style, that should be a given. However he still needs to have input in terms of specific strengths, mentality, impact on the dressing room, stuff like that.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Being great next year will be brilliant, but it won’t make posters have egg on their faces for calling out his horrendous start this season.
Every single United fan wants a strong Summer and to see a completely different side next year.
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attempting to reframe the constant negativity in here from certain posters, yourself included, as just ‘calling out his horrendous start’ is actually hilarious. Like not a single person in here doesn’t agree our league results have been poor.

If that was all you lot were saying there would be no debate.

I can already see how you guys will reframe the argument when you inevitably all look stupid next year. Too bad we won’t accept it.
 
stepic said:
attempting to reframe the constant negativity in here from certain posters, yourself included, as just ‘calling out his horrendous start’ is actually hilarious. Like not a single person in here doesn’t agree our league results have been poor.

If that was all you lot were saying there would be no debate.

I can already see how you guys will reframe the argument when you inevitably all look stupid next year. Too bad we won’t accept it.
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Inevitably :lol:
 
stepic said:
attempting to reframe the constant negativity in here from certain posters, yourself included, as just ‘calling out his horrendous start’ is actually hilarious. Like not a single person in here doesn’t agree our league results have been poor.

If that was all you lot were saying there would be no debate.

I can already see how you guys will reframe the argument when you inevitably all look stupid next year. Too bad we won’t accept it.
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Think you need to take a break mate.
 
Back on topic after the name calling.

I've made this point before but United are very different to most other clubs aside from maybe Real Madrid. I'd say 75% of the battle at United is dealing with the press and wider internal/external politics of the club.

There's a reason why Real Madrid have gone back to Zidane/Ancelotti because there's very few people that can deal with the pressure. Even experienced managers like Jose have struggled at both.

It's probably a reason why Ole did alright for a period. He "got the club" enough for it to counteract his lack of actual managerial ability for a period.

My worry for Amorim is that he's clearly a good potentially great (if slightly inexperienced manager) that might lack the personality to thrive at the non footballing side of things or at least not let it get to him. Fergie was a master at it. He was essentially a politician in those later years and let the coaches do most of the day to day coaching.

The way he sidelined Rashford was a good move but daft comments like the one about the goalkeeping coach showed his naivety. That ultimately just made newspaper headlines and gave the story another week.
 
RedC said:
I watched the highlights of the Wolves game as I couldn't watch the full match, seemed like we would have easily won the game with forwards that actually score goals. It certainly didn't look like an awful attacking performance, they scored a cracker of a free kick, and are generally always a decent team against us, even ignoring their current run of good form.

It's glaringly obvious we need new forwards to progress as a team, I can at least see the manager having a positive impact on our overall attacking play.
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We comfortably outplayed them but struggled to finish chances that we did create, or create further chances. Our back line featuring 2 youth players were comfortable all game. We gave away a needless freekick and they scored from it, which is typical really.
 
In Amorim’s setup at United, I honestly think the most important piece of the puzzle is having highly technical wingbacks. Not just fast or hardworking - proper ballers who can handle pressure, link up in tight spaces, and deliver quality in the final third.

Funny enough, Amad actually looks better as a wingback in this system than when he plays as a 10. That’s because the shape often isolates the wingbacks one-vs-one against opposition fullbacks, while the other attackers are camped around the box. If your wingback is technically sharp, he becomes a serious weapon—beating his man, slipping through, shooting, or setting up easy tap-ins.

In this system, wingbacks aren’t just wide runners - they’re the real danger men. Without top-tier wingbacks, the whole attacking setup falls flat.
 
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