Matheus Cunha | Official | signed the first day of the window

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I think Zirkzee definitely fits the description (although I'm not sure he actually fits in the team, but he'd clearly do a good job somewhere).
Dorgu is too young at this stage, but we paid a premium for him to come in in January, if you take that into account I think it's a reasonable punt on a player to see how he develops.
Ugarte and De Ligt are weird ones, technically speaking I'm talking about buying players before their "curve" starts to go up, where as Ugarte and De Ligt have had their full up and down very quickly and are still young enough that we're buying them on the way down hoping that we can get the second "peak". I don't hate that as a concept, but I'm not sure its the same thing (and I think Ugarte is just far too limited on the ball to play for United in a double pivot with a 10/2 10's in front of him, but he'd clearly do a job in a midfield 3 for some team).
I think both have their issues but De Ligt seems to have settled well here and can be a key player for where we will be over the next two to three campaigns (top 4 challenging whilst building for a title challenge). Ugarte is a bit odd in that his limitations mean we can not use him in certain situations.

But both players, including Mazraoui, will help us build formidable squad depth over the years. Looking at our defensive options, despite enduring an understated defensive injury crisis, we have been ok for having both De Ligt and Maz.

Ugarte enables us to use Casemiro in a less physically demanding way making him more useful and benefitting from his other 'on the ball' talents. Also you can have a backline of Yoro, De Ligt and Heaven/Lisandro/Shaw that can help with ball progression and still use Casemiro and Ugarte. If we sign a DLP with work rate and ball progression abilities we also use Ugarte as a midfield harrier.
 
I think both have their issues but De Ligt seems to have settled well here and can be a key player for where we will be over the next two to three campaigns (top 4 challenging whilst building for a title challenge). Ugarte is a bit odd in that his limitations mean we can not use him in certain situations.

But both players, including Mazraoui, will help us build formidable squad depth over the years. Looking at our defensive options, despite enduring an understated defensive injury crisis, we have been ok for having both De Ligt and Maz.

Ugarte enables us to use Casemiro in a less physically demanding way making him more useful and benefitting from his other 'on the ball' talents. Also you can have a backline of Yoro, De Ligt and Heaven/Lisandro/Shaw that can help with ball progression and still use Casemiro and Ugarte. If we sign a DLP with work rate and ball progression abilities we also use Ugarte as a midfield harrier.
There doesn't seem any desire to sign a DLP because I get the impression it's not suitable for Ruben's system
 
There doesn't seem any desire to sign a DLP because I get the impression it's not suitable for Ruben's system
I have seen Amorim comment about wanting more on the ball from a DM during his days at Sporting. I think, as a coach, he has moved on from an Ugarte type of player and we will see this as his team takes shape.

This summer will be about rebuilding the attack to ensure we have enough goals to be competitive so we won't see much in terms of his overall squad preferences but if he makes it to a second summer there will be changes and casualties.
 
There doesn't seem any desire to sign a DLP because I get the impression it's not suitable for Ruben's system
Agreed, the duties are split across the team in a different way. The middle centre back will screen the deep central areas defensively and do a bit of quarter backing. The outside centre backs look like they'll be the ones to carry the ball into midfield, especially if the wingbacks can stretch the team and make space. We saw Martinez do this really well. The two CMs seem like they'll be allowed to roam much more. I don't think a DLP is on the agenda.
 
It’s been kinda amusing seeing Villa and Newcastle fans on Twitter having meltdowns/being confused about him wanting to join United
 
Why were no clubs prepared to take a punt on Cherki for £20m in January? Is it because he is not very good? I have no idea who he is ?
You don’t know who he is?

He scored against us in the first leg vs Lyon and then ripped us apart in the 2nd leg and scored again and grabbed his nuts
 
I can't get behind this deal for £62.5mil.

That pretty much gets you Cherki, Joan Garcia and then if you can find another £20mil you can get Delap in as well, all three would be improvements in their position and we have upgraded in 3 areas rather than just 1.
 
I can't get behind this deal for £62.5mil.

That pretty much gets you Cherki, Joan Garcia and then if you can find another £20mil you can get Delap in as well, all three would be improvements in their position and we have upgraded in 3 areas rather than just 1.

We'll add them as well, no other club can do what Manchester United does in the transfer market, Disneyland etc.
 
The point here is more that while he's 90th percentile for goals this season, he's actually usually around 60-70th percentile and his xG highlights that. If we were signing an attacking midfielder with a goal variance of 15+/-5 then £60m is fine, because that goal output is pretty elite. The problem is Cunha is not that player. He's a (generously) 10+/-5 type player. I promise I’m not deliberately ignoring, I’m trying to get you to articulate exactly what you’re looking for. Which I genuinely appreciate you doing. They didn’t all have clear upward trajectory. Cunha went from failing at Atletico to Wolves. Kluivert had an ok 17/18 season at Ajax, but flopped at Roma where he had many loans. Gordon already performed well at Everton in his debut season


This is what I mean about looking beyond headline figures to actual underlying data. Cunha "flopped" at Atletico because he was playing as a striker under Simeone when they also had Suarez, Correa, Felix and Griezmann. Atletico were short on cash after bombing out of the CL group early, the Portuguese language contingent was causing trouble for Simeone about their game time and you find a situation where suddenly selling him looks very attractive. For a club looking for someone to play as a 10 rather than as a genuine forward in a pair (where there's significantly less goal output expected of him), that's ripe pickings for a decent deal.

This is just a very basic illustration of the point, but does this look like a player who doesn't have a baseline level of quality? It's an absolutely typical display of maintaining a consistent baseline despite stepping up responsibility. He has a dip at Atletico because of circumstance, but he's not suddenly a bad player.

Likewise, Kluivert


That doesn't take a statistician to figure out what is going on there. There's a reason they ended up at clubs with decent data anlytics.

I don't think Newcastle/Spurs etc. escape that tax anymore. Branthwaite is a different proposition to Gordon, who they clearly think has a much, much higher ceiling. This is one of the dangers of buying players in their very early 20's, I suspect you'll either be able to get Branthwaite for £40m in a year or he'll cost £80m, but the saving for waiting is pretty minimal and you're not losing out on a couple of the players best years. I'm pretty confident if United wanted Gordon for £40m uncontested like Newcastle did we would have gotten him.

I'd say Cunha is worth what Wolves paid for him. I know that is controversial, because he's had 2 and a half good years there so surely his price should have gone up? Well actually I'd argue no, there's 3 aspects to it.
1) I don't think he's got potential to go any higher, what you see is what you get (and there's a reason Atletico bought him, they saw that, they just used him badly/had bad squad management).
2) Premier League "proven" is really, really over-rated. What he really is is Wolves proven, I have doubts he'll be able to translate his ability better here than he did there, which circles back to point 1. That's not to say he'll be bad at United, or even he'll be worse.
3) Cunha is 26 in a few weeks. Players in those dynamic attacking positions typically have their best years in a range around 23-28 and then have to adapt or fall off. So realistically we're only getting half of that time for £60m, rather than all of it for less. He's also entering a period of ever increasing risk for injury niggles which would be a real issue for us and him.

So what you're getting really is a player on higher wages, with less of his best years left, putting in similar performances with an increased risk he wont be available. In exchange for some kind of guarantee that he'll adapt reasonably well to the move and hit the ground running? It's Mason Mount all over again (and I don't include Mount's hilariously sad injury record in that assessment, which even by United standards is a bit unlucky).

Thank you for clarifying your points further. It was a nice little back and forth and I think I understand you much better due to your willingness to expand.

Appreciate it!
 
I can't get behind this deal for £62.5mil.

That pretty much gets you Cherki, Joan Garcia and then if you can find another £20mil you can get Delap in as well, all three would be improvements in their position and we have upgraded in 3 areas rather than just 1.
Maybe we don't want Cherki
 
Barcelona signed Suarez after all the shenanigans he did, and he never repeated those while playing for Barca. And they were twice as bad as what Cunha did. Twice, he bit an opposing player and was suspended for racial abuse. Nothing once he got to Barcelona. So yeah, I have faith it can be handled.
 
Barcelona signed Suarez after all the shenanigans he did, and he never repeated those while playing for Barca. And they were twice as bad as what Cunha did. Twice, he bit an opposing player and was suspended for racial abuse. Nothing once he got to Barcelona. So yeah, I have faith it can be handled.
Yeah we haven't had a maverick for a few years
 
Maybe we don't want Cherki
There is nothing linking us to Cherki, he's just the new hipster signing.

Unfortunate thing for Cunha is that if we do sign him there will be a portion of the fanbase that will never accept or support him because we are signing him instead of Cherki (in their minds), much like the abuse Ugarte gets from all the Joao Neves fans from last summer.
 
Shields the ball so well and seems to be able to get himself out of tight spaces with ease
 
I can't get behind this deal for £62.5mil.

That pretty much gets you Cherki, Joan Garcia and then if you can find another £20mil you can get Delap in as well, all three would be improvements in their position and we have upgraded in 3 areas rather than just 1.

The notion that Cherki is available for a low fee has been pretty thotoughly dispelled. He does not have a release clause and Lyon won't be letting him go cheaply now that there is a lot of interest in him, they want to get the maximum for him. The 22M was a gentlemans agreement for January only as confirmed by Romano and even then they reneged on the deal once they realized they had undervalued him.
 
Almost looks like as if Berrada / Sir Jim / Amorim made up their minds. Perhaps it's also connected to finding potential buyers for our current attackers.

Offer Rashford to Wolves, if they'll need fix on Cunha's position, just keep making things happen. This one doesn't have to collide with 2nd striker deal at all, as long as we'll keep releasing, and selling players we don't need.
 
I can't get behind this deal for £62.5mil.

That pretty much gets you Cherki, Joan Garcia and then if you can find another £20mil you can get Delap in as well, all three would be improvements in their position and we have upgraded in 3 areas rather than just 1.
Spending £62m on Cunha doesn't stop us from buying Cherki and Joan Garcia as we will have some sales, even if, it could be potentially selling Garnacho. Cherki, Garcia, Delap and Cunha would cost around £150m, add the £40m - £50m that will come from the Garnacho sale you also get to sign a midfielder. Who knows what will happen with Sancho, Rashford and Antony.
 
There is nothing linking us to Cherki, he's just the new hipster signing.

Unfortunate thing for Cunha is that if we do sign him there will be a portion of the fanbase that will never accept or support him because we are signing him instead of Cherki (in their minds), much like the abuse Ugarte gets from all the Joao Neves fans from last summer.
Personally I would be delighted with the signing
 
Spending £62m on Cunha doesn't stop us from buying Cherki and Joan Garcia as we will have some sales, even if, it could be potentially selling Garnacho. Cherki, Garcia, Delap and Cunha would cost around £150m, add the £40m - £50m that will come from the Garnacho sale you also get to sign a midfielder. Who knows what will happen with Sancho, Rashford and Antony.
Don't think we are in for Cherki anyway
 
Don't think we are in for Cherki anyway
I don't think much has been decided on other than Cunha and Delap. We will need another attacker especially of we sell Garnacho, which we look like doing - Cunha Bruno, Amad and Zirkzee isn't enough, for the AM roles, considering the low volume of goal involvements Amad and Zirkzee have.

It would be silly to not get one of the promising attackers/playmakers in the French League. Once we have spent on what we need, if we manage to attract buyers for any one of; Sancho, Rashford and Antony we will bring someone in. I am not certain Cherki will still be on the market by that time, though.
 
The point here is more that while he's 90th percentile for goals this season, he's actually usually around 60-70th percentile and his xG highlights that. If we were signing an attacking midfielder with a goal variance of 15+/-5 then £60m is fine, because that goal output is pretty elite. The problem is Cunha is not that player. He's a (generously) 10+/-5 type player. I promise I’m not deliberately ignoring, I’m trying to get you to articulate exactly what you’re looking for. Which I genuinely appreciate you doing. They didn’t all have clear upward trajectory. Cunha went from failing at Atletico to Wolves. Kluivert had an ok 17/18 season at Ajax, but flopped at Roma where he had many loans. Gordon already performed well at Everton in his debut season


This is what I mean about looking beyond headline figures to actual underlying data. Cunha "flopped" at Atletico because he was playing as a striker under Simeone when they also had Suarez, Correa, Felix and Griezmann. Atletico were short on cash after bombing out of the CL group early, the Portuguese language contingent was causing trouble for Simeone about their game time and you find a situation where suddenly selling him looks very attractive. For a club looking for someone to play as a 10 rather than as a genuine forward in a pair (where there's significantly less goal output expected of him), that's ripe pickings for a decent deal.

This is just a very basic illustration of the point, but does this look like a player who doesn't have a baseline level of quality? It's an absolutely typical display of maintaining a consistent baseline despite stepping up responsibility. He has a dip at Atletico because of circumstance, but he's not suddenly a bad player.

Likewise, Kluivert


That doesn't take a statistician to figure out what is going on there. There's a reason they ended up at clubs with decent data anlytics.

I don't think Newcastle/Spurs etc. escape that tax anymore. Branthwaite is a different proposition to Gordon, who they clearly think has a much, much higher ceiling. This is one of the dangers of buying players in their very early 20's, I suspect you'll either be able to get Branthwaite for £40m in a year or he'll cost £80m, but the saving for waiting is pretty minimal and you're not losing out on a couple of the players best years. I'm pretty confident if United wanted Gordon for £40m uncontested like Newcastle did we would have gotten him.

I'd say Cunha is worth what Wolves paid for him. I know that is controversial, because he's had 2 and a half good years there so surely his price should have gone up? Well actually I'd argue no, there's 3 aspects to it.
1) I don't think he's got potential to go any higher, what you see is what you get (and there's a reason Atletico bought him, they saw that, they just used him badly/had bad squad management).
2) Premier League "proven" is really, really over-rated. What he really is is Wolves proven, I have doubts he'll be able to translate his ability better here than he did there, which circles back to point 1. That's not to say he'll be bad at United, or even he'll be worse.
3) Cunha is 26 in a few weeks. Players in those dynamic attacking positions typically have their best years in a range around 23-28 and then have to adapt or fall off. So realistically we're only getting half of that time for £60m, rather than all of it for less. He's also entering a period of ever increasing risk for injury niggles which would be a real issue for us and him.

So what you're getting really is a player on higher wages, with less of his best years left, putting in similar performances with an increased risk he wont be available. In exchange for some kind of guarantee that he'll adapt reasonably well to the move and hit uthe ground running? It's Mason Mount all over again (and I don't include Mount's hilariously sad injury record in that assessment, which even by United standards is a bit unlucky).

That's an amazing post though I don't agree with the age range (I'd say he can last till 30-31).

United on paper has some amazing kids coming through. There's Zirkzee, Mainoo, Garnacho and Amad then there's Lacey + JJ Gabriel coming through. Having said that we have been dependent on 2-3 players for so many years. In the past it was Rashford and Bruno. When Rashy started faltering the goals dried up and none of the youngsters could step up and take his role. I think United fear that the same will happen with Bruno, which, considering his insane workrate, will happen sooner rather than later. And when it does we'll be relegation fodder UNLESS someone else steps up.

Cunha is the safest bet we could get. Other players will aim for clubs who can either pay better or can guarantee CL qualification. On paper Cunha should add more goals/creativity while concurrently share Bruno's burden. By the time Bruno and Cunha start showing signs of wear and tear then the likes of Mainoo, Amad, Zirkzee and possibly others would be old enough to take over. I wont be surprised if we add another young no 10 on the cheap (Mastantuono?)
 
I don't think much has been decided on other than Cunha and Delap. We will need another attacker especially of we sell Garnacho, which we look like doing - Cunha Bruno, Amad and Zirkzee isn't enough, for the AM roles, considering the low volume of goal involvements Amad and Zirkzee have.

It would be silly to not get one of the promising attackers/playmakers in the French League. Once we have spent on what we need, if we manage to attract buyers for any one of; Sancho, Rashford and Antony we will bring someone in. I am not certain Cherki will still be on the market by that time, though.
Feels like that Mastantuono might be that other attacker
 
I am a hard no on this signing. How do you bring somebody into the Manchester United spotlight who absolutely lost it wanting to fight players, managers, trainers and I don't know who else.


He wasn't angry, he completely lost the plot, after getting sent off for throwing a player to the ground a few weeks before.

Players will get under his skin, get him sent off, refs will have his number - he is way too volatile a risk to put a £60m bet on.

Right there with you. Very much against this signing, especially for this fee. Of course, he is a good, experienced player, but he looks like an expensive ticking time bomb. I don't believe in this "players with edge" argument. This isn't the 90s. Everyone has immediate access to platforms now, which isn't a good thing in cases like his, and everything they do on and off the pitch is under scrutiny and quickly shared far and wide. This is even more true for Manchester United where you know every little slip-up is an opportunity to cash in and attack the club. Imagine if he loses his head like he did but in a United shirt. And United really don't need this kind of heat after the last decade.

This will come back to haunt the club I feel like.
 
Right there with you. Very much against this signing, especially for this fee. Of course, he is a good, experienced player, but he looks like an expensive ticking time bomb. I don't believe in this "players with edge" argument. This isn't the 90s. Everyone has immediate access to platforms now, which isn't a good thing in cases like his, and everything they do on and off the pitch is under scrutiny and quickly shared far and wide. This is even more true for Manchester United where you know every little slip-up is an opportunity to cash in and attack the club. Imagine if he loses his head like he did but in a United shirt. And United really don't need this kind of heat after the last decade.

This will come back to haunt the club I feel like.
I am confident you will be proved wrong
 
I don't think much has been decided on other than Cunha and Delap. We will need another attacker especially of we sell Garnacho, which we look like doing - Cunha Bruno, Amad and Zirkzee isn't enough, for the AM roles, considering the low volume of goal involvements Amad and Zirkzee have.

It would be silly to not get one of the promising attackers/playmakers in the French League. Once we have spent on what we need, if we manage to attract buyers for any one of; Sancho, Rashford and Antony we will bring someone in. I am not certain Cherki will still be on the market by that time, though.
Amad actually has 9 and like 8 assists in 36 appearances. Not bad considering some of the games have been at RWB. He’ll surely improve his goal involvements with better players around him and a proper ST
 
Entertain us!

this tweet has +20K likes and a bunch of replies from Newcastle fans saying things along the line of “it’s the cash/chasing the money”, which is incredible considering what they are as a club now. It’s like twilight zone.



Funny enough, a Liverpool fan was trying to explain it to them:


Like I said, twilight zone.
 
You don’t know who he is?

He scored against us in the first leg vs Lyon and then ripped us apart in the 2nd leg and scored again and grabbed his nuts
That was a bit Cheeki of him.

I don't pay much attention to the other team. When we don't have the ball I'm watching what our players are doing rather than the opposition.
 
this tweet has +20K likes and a bunch of replies from Newcastle fans saying things along the line of “it’s the cash/chasing the money”, which is incredible considering what they are as a club now. It’s like twilight zone.



Funny enough, a Liverpool fan was trying to explain it to them:


Like I said, twilight zone.

Even when we’re shite we are still a way bigger pull than Aston Villa, obviously. Delusional.
 
There is nothing linking us to Cherki, he's just the new hipster signing.

Unfortunate thing for Cunha is that if we do sign him there will be a portion of the fanbase that will never accept or support him because we are signing him instead of Cherki (in their minds), much like the abuse Ugarte gets from all the Joao Neves fans from last summer.

Me too, Cunha is one of my top choices for this summer, very excited at the prospect of this signing. Upsetting all the Cherki hipsters is a nice added bonus too.
In this really a thing “Cherki hipsters”? :lol:

Honestly just thought he was an immensely rated/talented kid who might finally be putting it all together this season and living up to his potential, whilst being available for a supposed “decent” fee (£20 - £25m), in a position we’re severely lacking?

I don’t see anyone advocating spending £62,5m on him, and I don’t see them being “competitive” signings (albeit we’re short of cash and will need to sell if we’re to sign more than 2-3 players). We could sign them both, actually. Or one could hope. Would give us great strength and depth in those AM positions all of a sudden.
 
this tweet has +20K likes and a bunch of replies from Newcastle fans saying things along the line of “it’s the cash/chasing the money”, which is incredible considering what they are as a club now. It’s like twilight zone.



Funny enough, a Liverpool fan was trying to explain it to them:


Like I said, twilight zone.

What's funny is that our past decade of being shit ... How many clubs have more trophies than us? Just City, Liverpool and Chelsea in the Prem, just Bayern in Germany, just PSG in France, just Barca and Real Madrid in Spain, and then just Inter and Juve in Italy. So despite us being a disaster, we've still been basically the 10th most successful team in the big leagues since 2015.
 
My defining memory of him is from (I think) last season when we played Wolves, and he just kept on bursting through the middle of the field over and over and over and I thought to myself "We could really use someone like this in our team"

I am quite excited about the prospect of him joining
 
this tweet has +20K likes and a bunch of replies from Newcastle fans saying things along the line of “it’s the cash/chasing the money”, which is incredible considering what they are as a club now. It’s like twilight zone.



Funny enough, a Liverpool fan was trying to explain it to them:


Like I said, twilight zone.


Despite the rivalry, I would say a Liverpool fan is far more likely to understand it than a fan of Villa or Newcastle. One could have said similarly about Liverpool pre Klopp, 'why would a player join them etc etc' and while there are many reasons, being a major part of a squad that helps a fallen giant rise again will earn you a level of prestige that it would be difficult to attain in any other way in football
 
My defining memory of him is from (I think) last season when we played Wolves, and he just kept on bursting through the middle of the field over and over and over and I thought to myself "We could really use someone like this in our team"

I am quite excited about the prospect of him joining
Yeah I would be buzzing about him joining too
 
this tweet has +20K likes and a bunch of replies from Newcastle fans saying things along the line of “it’s the cash/chasing the money”, which is incredible considering what they are as a club now. It’s like twilight zone.



Funny enough, a Liverpool fan was trying to explain it to them:


Like I said, twilight zone.


So fed up with non-United fans saying stuff like this. Even in a rough spell we’ve won 2 trophies in 3 years and in the semi finals of a European trophy. When did Villa last win anything? Newcastle have 1 trophy in 70 years (that’s likely to change now but still).
 
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